Is the term non-op transsexual a paradox? Since transsexual refered to SRS.

[EllenJ2003]

Yes... but I knew them on-line since the mid-late 90's from several different on-line fora (long before they partnered).

Suzy is not crazy, she just has strong opinions which sometime change, and has been very vocal about them ... BTW it seems she has mellowed a bit in her old age...

- karen

- karen

I remember you from that group Karen.  I just meant crazy because both Suzy and Tina had a tendency to get rabid with anybody who held a different point of view than they had.  I finally got fed up and quit the group (in a rather public "I quit" post IIRC), because of them being that way.  I remember you mentioning how Suzy used to swing between opinions (oftentimes in a pretty radical way).

Ellen

[EllenJ2003]

All I will say is that you are being a lot more gracious than VP was.

- karen

Virginia Prince's less than gracious feelings/attitude about transsexuality, may have been due to the fact that (from what I was told - correct me if I'm wrong) Harry Benjamin nixed Virginia Prince for transitioning under his care in the late 60s or early 70s, when Virginia Prince went to see him for doing so.  So, the feelings/attitude may have been bitterness based for VP?

Ellen
HRT since 1999
Orchiechtomy - 2001
SRS Yeahh!! by Suporn - Nov. 25, 2003

[echo7]

No, it isn't. Per the site terms and definitions :

"Transsexual: a person who is mentally one gender, but has the body of the other. They desire to live and be accepted as a member of the mental gender, this is generally accompanied by the strong desire to make their body as congruent as possible with the preferred sex through surgery and hormone treatments."

Strong desire does not equal a requirement to have surgery.

I interpret that definition in a slightly different way.  While a "strong desire" does not necessarily require that someone currently has the surgery, it should require that someone should want and desire the surgery.  So, I consider pre-op women as transsexuals because they want the surgery in the future.  I consider non-op women as transsexuals, if they want the surgery but are unable to do so due to life-threatening risks from undergoing surgery.  But if a non-op woman simply doesn't want the surgery because she's comfortable with her genitals, that means she doesn't have genital dysphoria.  It means she does not have a strong desire to make her body as congruent as possible with her preferred sex.  And so it follows that she doesn't fit the definition of a transsexual according to this site's own definition.  She's still transgender, and she's still a trans woman, and she's still a woman.  But in my opinion she's not a transsexual woman.

[Frae]

Actually it was already. I started transition in the mid 90's and it was already in use.

To me a transsexual is someone who needs to physically change sex as opposed to just social role, as much possible for them, and willing to make significant sacrifices to do so. It's the strength of that need that to me defines a transsexual rather than if they have yet managed to have SRS.

- karen

Oh! Well til. But I was just a kid in the 90's learning about the Trans umbrella through Taxi Cab Confessions! And maybe the odd sitcom episode / the rocky horror picture show. And I never heard Transgender until I was older and starting to research online. It was all sexual/vestite in popular culture.

[pamelatransuk]

In my mind that is exactly how it works. I use transgender as an umbrella term and transexual and someone who as undergone the OP. Though I often just refer to myself as a non op trans woman (when the situation calls for it)

But none of these terms are really codified or have solid meanings. Tons of it comes to personal interpretation and connotation. Not to mention the meanings shift with education and more understanding.

20 years ago we would have all been "transexuals" or "transvestities". The term Trangender wasn't in use. But now many find the terms offensive as they harken to a time when understanding was much less and being trans was conflated with sexuality and a lot of gate keeping.

For many the use of transgender over transexual regardless of the status of thier junk is to promote a better understanding of gender as separate to sex.

Hello Frae

Obviously I disagree with your first para.

However I wholeheartedly agree with your third and fourth paras. Whether we use term Transgender or Transsexual or Transwoman, we use them as term of GENDER and not of sexuality which is modern and I feel sure correct thinking.

That is the message we need to get across outside our community as many outside still unfortunately cannot (or will not) differentiate between the two.

Pamela

[Devlyn]

I interpret that definition in a slightly different way.  While a "strong desire" does not necessarily require that someone currently has the surgery, it should require that someone should want and desire the surgery.  So, I consider pre-op women as transsexuals because they want the surgery in the future.  I consider non-op women as transsexuals, if they want the surgery but are unable to do so due to life-threatening risks from undergoing surgery.  But if a non-op woman simply doesn't want the surgery because she's comfortable with her genitals, that means she doesn't have genital dysphoria.  It means she does not have a strong desire to make her body as congruent as possible with her preferred sex.  And so it follows that she doesn't fit the definition of a transsexual according to this site's own definition.  She's still transgender, and she's still a trans woman, and she's still a woman.  But in my opinion she's not a transsexual woman.

The site definition you cite is preceded by the words "generally accompanied by". I still don't think that constitutes a requirement.

Hugs, Devlyn 

[Michelle_P]

The site definition you cite is preceded by the words "generally accompanied by". I still don't think that constitutes a requirement.

Hugs, Devlyn

Absolutely right!  Gender dysphoria is not a requirement, but a condition often associated with persons desiring to surgically correct a gender incongruity.  Young transitioners in particular, raised in an accepting and supportive environment, might not have an experience of gender dysphoria.

I would be careful about tying gender dysphoria to medical transition.                                                                       

[Mary1]

We definitely are trans-women, no matter where we are in transition. The trans is short for transgender not transsexual. 

But more importantly why the need to say trans-woman?  Why not just woman?  There are times when it would be necessary or helpful to make the trans distinction, but normally it should not be.

I am a woman first, trans-woman being a subset of all women, just as tall women or short women would be.



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I though believe that there  a comparison to tall and short.. is a bit extreme.

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[TonyaW]

I though believe that there  a comparison to tall and short.. is a bit extreme.

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The only comparison is that tall and short, trans and cis are adjectives and woman is the noun they are describing.  My point is that we should not have to separate ourselves by saying "trans woman" when "woman" will suffice 99% of the time. 

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[herekitten]

Absolutely right!  Gender dysphoria is not a requirement, but a condition often associated with persons desiring to surgically correct a gender incongruity.  Young transitioners in particular, raised in an accepting and supportive environment, might not have an experience of gender dysphoria.

I would be careful about tying gender dysphoria to medical transition.                                                                       

As it applies to me, you expressed how I feel. Simply a medical transition. Nothing more. I would even go as far to leave the word 'transition' off and instead use 'intervention'. For me, the absence of dysphoria is due to my accepting and understanding parents, sisters and friends. The rest of my craziness is only because I enjoy it 

[echo7]

I would even go as far to leave the word 'transition' off and instead use 'intervention'.

I have heard some transgender people say that 'transition' is actually a transphobic term because it follows cissexist norms for gendered bodies.  Maybe 'intervention' is a better word then.

[AutumnLeaves]

Is non-op transsexual a contradiction? Since non-op is contradictory with transsexual which refers to individuals who have undergone SRS.
But what if someone stays in that " transition space " where they go on HRT but don't have intentions to undergo SRS.
Should they be labeled transgender or transsexual?
My therapist refers to me as " transgender " but is of the opinion that I can't call myself a trans woman because I haven't undergone SRS. In her opinion the term trans woman is reserved for individuals who underwent SRS.
She refers to me as " a transgender / a gender ( not to be confused with agender ) " .

Most people in daily life label me " a transsexual " though.

So, can one call herself transsexual when she is non-op or is that a contradiction with the ground meaning of the word transsexual?

FWIW : I still refer to myself as a trans woman. Trans woman applies to me because for my feeling one doesn't need to have undergone SRS to be able to call themselves trans woman. I am a woman of transition experience and the fact that I undertake a transgender transition instead of a transsexual transition has no bearing on the use of the word in my opinion.

You don't have to have had surgery of any kind to be a transwoman. Your therapist is not only wrong but offensive in her attempts to dictate what terminology you use for yourself and your experience. And personally, anyone in the caring field who referred to me as "a transgender" (or as "a" anything) would see me walking out the door and lodging a complaint as we aren't "transgenders" but "transgender people/men/women."