Romans 1:26-27

[SarahM777]

Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."


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First let's put that within the context of the chapter.

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? 3 For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. 4 So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,[a] so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast, so that you may be a new unleavened batch—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.


Paul does NOT speak to the fact of whether or not being a eunuch in and of itself is immoral. The Bible does point to the fact that being a eunuch in and of itself is morally NEUTRAL. (Nehemiah,Shadrach,Meshach,Abednego and Daniel were most likely eunuchs and you also have the Ethiopian eunuch. None of which anyone could claim they are immoral JUST because they are eunuchs.)


In fact here is the passage from Daniel


Now among these were of the children of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah:
7 Unto whom the prince of the eunuchs gave names: for he gave unto Daniel the name of Belteshazzar; and to Hananiah, of Shadrach; and to Mishael, of Meshach; and to Azariah, of Abednego.
8 But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.
10 And the prince of the eunuchs said unto Daniel, I fear my lord the king, who hath appointed your meat and your drink: for why should he see your faces worse liking than the children which are of your sort? then shall ye make me endanger my head to the king.
11 Then said Daniel to Melzar, whom the prince of the eunuchs had set over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah,


Four of them were placed under the prince or ruler of the eunuchs which would clearly indicate that they were eunuchs.


Going on since all of them were Jews and still trying to obey God even with the dietary laws, God blesses them even though they are eunuchs



12 Prove thy servants, I beseech thee, ten days; and let them give us pulse to eat, and water to drink.
13 Then let our countenances be looked upon before thee, and the countenance of the children that eat of the portion of the king's meat: and as thou seest, deal with thy servants.
14 So he consented to them in this matter, and proved them ten days.
15 And at the end of ten days their countenances appeared fairer and fatter in flesh than all the children which did eat the portion of the king's meat.
16 Thus Melzar took away the portion of their meat, and the wine that they should drink; and gave them pulse.
17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
18 Now at the end of the days that the king had said he should bring them in, then the prince of the eunuchs brought them in before Nebuchadnezzar.
19 And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
20 And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm

Now if you're talking about eunuchs that are involved with temple prostitution,other types types of prostition etc that those eunuchs are being immoral and should be thrown out of the church would be correct.

[SarahM777]

Knowing how much of the institution deals with us does this sound familiar? Does you think maybe God may just a huge problem with how we are treated?

Matthew 23


13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]
15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.' 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.' 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

25 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

Do some shut out of the kingdom by what they say?

"You can not be LGBT and be a Christian."

"You must stop being LGBT before God will save you. (But we can come as we are as gluttons, adulterers, greedy etc because we are being sanctified and changed, but that doesn't really apply to you. Besides once we made the decision we are once saved and always saved which by the way does apply to you)


All LGBT will be cast into hell or maybe we should beat the gay out of you to save you. (Do we really need to show mercy and compassion to those that we view as abominations??? You mean we are suppose to love them as ourselves?)


I don't know about you but I think that God had a real problem with those teachers because of they way they acted.
And if they are acting like that do you really think by what they show that they are actually Christians to begin with?


Jesus was so clear on this, there is no ambiguity in light of the sermon on the mount also

31 When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now the Son of Man is glorified and God is glorified in him. 32 If God is glorified in him,[c] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
33 "My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.
34 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

And if this is how they act and the teachers of those days taught doctrines of men and twisted the scriptures into knots wouldn't it be reasonable to draw the conclusion that the institution would also teach doctrines of men and tie the scriptures into knots also?

[Shellie Hart]

I am sure this will sound silly, but here goes....

I stopped with the religious debates years ago. No one ever wins. No one ever accepts the arguments, logic or feelings of others. Yet, when I was very young, I heard a preacher read from the book of Job, chapter 21. It says: "His breasts are full of milk, and his bones run full of marrow." It is a verse that teaches of the prosperity of a person and the blessings of God in his life. "His breasts are full!" But we all "know" only women have breasts, right (at least according to my own religious upbringing)? Well, I am AMAB and I have full breasts. I don't know. Maybe I am interpreting it wrong. But it seems there are so many contradictions in the Bible and so many religious types who use the Bible to prove their own biases. If we argue enough any of us can find Bible verses to prove anything we want -- Every time.

Just my two cents worth....

[Janes Groove]

Matthew 5:15

"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house."

The haters are trying to silence us. Drive us back into the closet so that we will be invisible like in "the good old days."  But when we are out, loud, and proud we are shining our light upon the world so that the darkness of this world is dispelled.

I also take solace in knowing that by being out, loud, and proud we are up taking up valuable real estate in their heads.  That's kind of what Pride Month is all about.

[SarahM777]

This may seem like a silly question but since the context of Romans 1 is idol worship and those who did worship idols were turned over because of the idol worship, if they are trying to use this passage to say we were turned over because of idol worship, then for those of us who were raised in a Christian home and we believe exactly the same as them wouldn't that mean that they also are idols worshippers and the only difference between them and us is that we were turned over and they weren't? Wouldn't the logical conclusion therefore be that they are idol worshippers?

[Deborah]

Their logic works in the opposite direction.  You are guilty of this "sin", therefore you must have been an idol worshiper.

You cannot reason with those whose view of reality is not based upon reality itself.


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[SarahM777]

Of course not, that's what happens when you are so indoctrinated that you are not allowed to think things through.
That's what happens when the institution itself becomes very cultic and will do everything to protect itself from those things and people they are not in agreement with.


When you can point out that when they post passages from the Bible that they say a passage says something that when you you read it says nothing like that at all,you know it's bad. And it's so easy to see that it's based on an interpratation of the passage and they have never really it through the passage is actually saying. Brain washing at it's finest. 

[SarahM777]

Paul said you should judge other Christians and throw them out if they are immoral.  He wrote this in the very earliest letter contained in the New Testament.

1 Corinthians 5:9–13 (RSV2CE): 9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; 10 not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. 12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the Church whom you are to judge? 13 God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."


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Just thinking about this, first question should be what defines immorality? Is it the church, the rabbis, or is it defined by the law which God gave? Th reason I ask this is within Romans Paul tells us this


Romans 4


13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

John tells us this

1 John 4

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.


So whuich law are they talking about? They can only be talking about the Mosaic law since most of the writers of the Bible are Jews. There fore all sexual immorality MUST be defined by the law. And in the law God gets very specific on some things like this

Leviticus 18

18 "'Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

So where then where is the law about lesbians under the Mosaic law? Since there is NO DIRECT law that condemns lesbians ergo where is the transgression of the law? (I know it can be done SUBJECTIVELY under one of other the laws but it can not be done by an OBJECTIVE reading of the law)

So then what seems to come across is where there is no law -- no transgression of the law--- no sin---- no wrath.

Therefore if that staement is true and the premise of Romans 1 is God's wrath on sin amnd there is no law against lesbians how then would Paul actaully include lesbians (in and of themslves) within Romans 1?

[amydane]

Isaiah 56:3-5

3 ¶ Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the Lord, speak, saying, The Lord hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
         4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
         5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

These versus are great! I believe the dry tree it references, means for us to not feel like we don't have anything to offer, or a place in God's kingdom. If we keep the commandments, there is an place in heaven for us.

The greatest commandment is to love God with all our heart and soul. The second is to love our neighbor (all children of God).

When Christ said this he didn't make it conditional upon how we judge our neighbors hearts and actions.

I try to keep it a simple as loving God and others.

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[SarahM777]

The problem with how the church is using those passages all has to do with 3 main things. First for the most part the church bases it doctrine on Paul and filters everything else through Paul without ever dealing with what is actually said in the Old Testament. Most Christians have very little clue outside of about 35 stories, the few prophecies about Jesus and those used for dealing with dispensationalism. Second the church became anti semitic and basically got away from the Old Testament foundation due to 2 reasons one was the influence of gnosticism and the other was that the law does not apply to Christians therefore no sense in teaching what it actually says. Third was the influence of Jewish and Greek philosophy. Some of the early church fathers did filter much of their doctrine starting with Plato, Aristotle and then neoplatonism. 

I started reading some of what the Jews believe and teach on some of the stuff and it's world's apart from what the church teaches. Never mind the fact the Christianity started as a Jewish sect. It's no wonder that things are so messed up in the institution.

[Dianne H]

One problem I have noticed with those who blindly throw out a scripture is that few today have ever been taught a sin not unto death versus a sin unto death. Most have little clue and think sin is measured by gay or straight, transgender or cis.

Another area is using scripture alone for doctrine. many churches teach doctrine in accordance to what country they live in, what the nation's style is or in the case of America, they feel the Lord ordained doctrines which fit the Constitution, the amendments, what year we live in, the latest fad or what makes friends.

Very few churches use scripture alone for the foundation and authority of what they believe.

Christianity today is nowhere near what Christ ordained.

[HughE]

Not all Christians are bigots. Despite the fact that the pope has said some quite negative things about transgender people, earlier this year, I was contacted by someone called Natalie, who is a recent convert to Catholicism, and who wanted to interview me to help her understand what the transgender phenomenon is all about. She's also interviewed a number of other people, and assembled them all into a series she's entitled "Truth and Gender". I was trying to persuade her to make the interview public on youtube, but she seemed reluctant, and I didn't want to pressure her, since it's quite brave of her to tackle such a controversial topic at all. Still, anyone who wants to can view my interview, and the others in the series, by signing up to it at the following link.

http://www.sogoesthefuture.com/truthgender/

In the first interview, Natalie is talking with a "Non Violent Communication Coach" about her reasons for putting together the series, and what she's hoping to achieve by doing it. The second interview is with Kimberly Shappley, a fundamentalist Christian who was completely opposed to transgender people on religious grounds, until she gave birth to a child who turned out to be transgender. Now she advocates on behalf of transgender people (and sadly, is now experiencing what we often experience: hatred and rejection from people she thought were friends, and even from some of her family).

The third interview is the one I did with Natalie. It's a 60 minute interview, and wasn't religious in nature, but was instead based around what I've discovered about prenatal exposure to pharmaceutical hormones as a cause of intersex and transgender. The topics we covered include:

* how my hormone exposure has affected me;
* how I first realised I have symptoms associated with intersex conditions, and
* how I first found out about DES, and how I came to link my own condition to being prenatally exposed to synthetic female hormones.

We also talked about
* the importance of hormones in determining which sex you develop as;
* possible transgenerational effects affecting grandchildren from DES pregnancies;
* the possible role of androgenizing progestins in FTM transgenderism;
* creating fake behaviour to cover up for having a brain that's the wrong sex for your body, and ending up turning yourself into a completely fake person;
* the importance of having the correct hormones in your system for good physical and mental health.

I also gave a quick mention to Primodos (a hormone based drug that caused thalidomide-like deformities), and HHORAGES France, an organization set up to highlight high rates of suicides and mental illness in hormone exposed children.

There are also other interviews in the series, which I've not yet seen. I'm hoping that by participating in the series, it'll help to change the often quite negative attitudes many Christians have towards transgender people.

[SarahM777]

Not all Christians are bigots. Despite the fact that the pope has said some quite negative things about transgender people, earlier this year, I was contacted by someone called Natalie, who is a recent convert to Catholicism, and who wanted to interview me to help her understand what the transgender phenomenon is all about. She's also interviewed a number of other people, and assembled them all into a series she's entitled "Truth and Gender". I was trying to persuade her to make the interview public on youtube, but she seemed reluctant, and I didn't want to pressure her, since it's quite brave of her to tackle such a controversial topic at all. Still, anyone who wants to can view my interview, and the others in the series, by signing up to it at the following link.

Yes that is ture many Christians are not bigots. The problem is those that are have a tendency to be just very very slightly to the left or to the right of groups like Westboro Baptist church. And unfortunatlly they are very well funded and very vocal in their oppositon to us. Many of them are very good at using fear tactics that motivate their base. (IE because of the acceptance of LGBTs America is becoming Sodom and Gomarrah. etc,etc etc..)

They are the most difficult and stubborn people to dela with as they are so convinced that they are right and they can not be wrong about much of anything. So they have a tendency to look at science as a tool of the devil. (There by they can dismiss anything or everything they choose from scince without any real reason as to why they disagree with the science.) Most of them have been so institutionalished that they CAN NOT and will not think for themselves. The underlying current with them is they see they are losing their power and influence and they will fight it tooth and nail.

They will be around for some time yet and they will not go away quietly. But hopefully some day this too will pass.