What is your personal flavor of non-binary?

[blackcat]

Because there are so many different types of non-binary, what do you consider yourself? What are the nuances of your being? Do you have more bigender or neutral leanings? How do you experience and express these? How do you choose to present?

I have a strong sense of neither/nor. When I read descriptions of identifying as bigender, I feel like I am the complete opposite. I think all the variation is fascinating!

I'm AFAB. If I had to break down how I identify, it's 0% female and 53% ? male. Like whatever software in my brain dictates residual self-image SCREAMS that I am undisputedly male, there's not a hint of female anything to it. But I also feel like that software crashed while it was loading, and that male part of me never fully developed.

I don't talk or bond socially like a woman. Online, I'm misgendered 100% of the time, even when I sign my CLEARLY FEMALE name, to the point of me having adopted a male persona on Facebook years ago (because screw Facebook and everyone just thought I was a guy, anyway - transgender hadn't occurred to me at the time ).

I'm curious to hear about experiences with body image and those who have a strong sense of "neither."

I think the feeling that I have of this underdeveloped male component in my self-recognition process also plays a part in my preference for having a sexless/undifferentiated body. Maybe if that part had been able to fully develop, I would feel comfortable in an adult male body, but the idea is just as scary and alien as having an adult female body.

My ideal body image has ALWAYS been something slender, pencil straight and sexless. I've had a huge aversion to body hair since I started developing any. I have my own wax pot at home now and HEY that stuff is awesome. 

I developed an eating disorder around age 11 when I started puberty and my body shape was changing, and my specific disgust was with having any kind of curves (fortunately I worked my way out of the disorder and have been a healthy BMI now for years). I still feel abject disgust at my curves, but I'm not willing to harm myself over them (and I'm lazy and food tastes good!). But I think it's interesting to note that I engaged in that behavior at that time in my development.

I LOVED IT when I did pole fitness, which developed crazy upper body muscle and killed my boobs a little bit (umm, but then I fell off the pole and my spine is not right to this day, so... pilates it is). If I could have never dealt with any of the baggage puberty gave my body, I would be in heaven.

Also, since I was a kid, I've been drawn to the bishounen style of anime (slender, long-limbed, hairless androgynous guys). And definitely androgyny in general. Twinks. 

When I think about transitioning, and the hairiness of it all, I would feel just as dysphoric about the other parts of my body that I wish I could be rid of. I'd have similar body image issues at the end of the day, just differently.

I'm also not sexually attracted to hairy, manly men. Like body builders? No way. Ugh. My "type" is (coincidentally?) the type that I would also kill to look like.

I am also mentally missing some aspects of "masculine" nature, most notably my aggression patterns (not sure how else to explain that?). While I'm not emotionally centered like women, I couldn't do calculus to save my life. If there were a pill I could take to get all the mental effects of T with none of the physical effects, and that pill lasted about eight hours, hands-down I would keep some of that in my cabinet for when I want to tackle certain projects. It's clear to me I didn't get the entire male package. But I got ZERO of the female package.

And I am most comfortable in my own skin when that lack of distinction or development is reflected in my appearance.

My favorite thing to play with as a kid was K'nex. 

I am curious to hear about everyone's non-binary experiences because the spectrum is so vast. And it's nice knowing that you don't have to be A or B.

As for my presentation, I'm staying female. I have nothing to gain and more to lose by attempting to change it, and that change wouldn't make me happier. If I could shave 3 points off my BMI that would be STELLAR, but I'm at a healthy weight, and it is what it is. I cut my hair sideways. I need a brand new wardrobe. I'm not sure what to get or where to shop, yet, but I'm thinking I should adopt some kind of "dressed in black art freak" approach to my style. I always had a thing for those art freaks, too.  But then again, they're generally androgynous.

[Devlyn]

I have more of a neither/nor component, but I also embrace the "both" aspect. I present exclusively female every day regardless of where my head is at.

Hugs, Devlyn

[Allison S]

I wouldn't say I'm non binary but I think curves, an hour glass figure, resonates with my body the most. I lose weight easily if I try but being stick thin, losing some (I always have a butt) fat makes me feel weird. I don't like being lanky, then I think my shoulders stand out more?
Right now my upper arms are kinda big.. there and my stomach I need to lose fat. Obviously I can't decide where on my body I can lose weight, so I'm learning to accept this and wear things that flatter me. And those things are... skirts, leggings and crop tops. Lol 
I would do long brouses as long as they're material is elastic-y and tight fitting. I don't like anything baggy at all.


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[Sno]

My labels are neutrois, demigirl. Definitely NB, definitely bigender, definitely fluid.Although I am AMAB, relating to that half of the species is difficult, at best - there are days when I wish it was easier, as it doesn't help my mental health and transition is out of the question. The demigirl in me is strong, patient, kind and loving. She understands her situation and takes every opportunity to participate - but it confuses the heck out of the men folk, as she can translate very effectively the nuance of language between the traditional binary. It helps that she is accepted readily by the womenfolk around, and the menfolk don't see the body as a threat, as she spends a lot of time verbally and socially out and about. As I am she, it's not a case that that part of my gender expression is heard, but my presentation generally falls under the neutrois as I'm avoiding flaring up my anxiety problems.

The fluidity is a recent surprise, when I was aware that my perception moved from predominantly feminine to neither - that awareness has come about through therapy for my overall mental health.

(Hugs)


Rowan

[Jessica]

I still feel a gray area about the difference of NB and gender fluid.  In one hand you have all personalities with no fixed point and in the other you have all personalities with no fixed point except with leeway for change.
Where my question is, if I subscribe to NB do I need to find my personal place until I find who I am, or go the fluid route and occupy wherever and how much I want.
I think the latter.

[Sno]

Hi Jessica,

It's a complicated situation which ever way you look at it, mainly because of the poor language that we have to describe all of our experiences, as a single unified gender continuum.

Using understanding of non-binary space, from the thread below, it helped me work out what labels best describe me.

We are all familiar with the sliding scale between male and female - but there are three other spectrums to deal with - sense of gender, from highly gendered to none; number of genders experienced, from poly gender, via bi gender and  single gender to none; and finally gender rigidity - fluid through to rigid

It's language gets complicated if you want to describe feeling highly gendered and firm in your self awareness in certain circumstances, and equally like neither in different circumstances, under the single spectrum model - folk are trying, and there are patterns of self identification forming which is a good thing, as the more repetitive the descriptions are, the more likely they are to be adopted by wider society.

So, coming around to your question, and how that could be addressed using this model?. To be fluid, you need to have understanding of at least two gender states (my case neutrois and feminine) to transit between (making you bigender at least), a sense of gender (mild through to strong) and awareness that your personality will respond in either of those ways in similar circumstances (so your response is fluid). If you feel like you have a single gender state, that is rigid, and no sense or awareness then you are likely agender and so on. These labels are attempts to describe a sense of gender, outside the binary and the descriptions vary widely to describe common experiences (the primary confusion).

Hopefully that makes some sense, and I'm not jabbering like and old fool. Or maybe I am.

What ever, (Hugs) - enjoy your journey to find a way to best describe you

Rowan

[Jessica]

Hi Jessica,

It's a complicated situation which ever way you look at it, mainly because of the poor language that we have to describe all of our experiences, as a single unified gender continuum.

Using understanding of non-binary space, from the thread below, it helped me work out what labels best describe me.

We are all familiar with the sliding scale between male and female - but there are three other spectrums to deal with - sense of gender, from highly gendered to none; number of genders experienced, from poly gender, via bi gender and  single gender to none; and finally gender rigidity - fluid through to rigid

It's language gets complicated if you want to describe feeling highly gendered and firm in your self awareness in certain circumstances, and equally like neither in different circumstances, under the single spectrum model - folk are trying, and there are patterns of self identification forming which is a good thing, as the more repetitive the descriptions are, the more likely they are to be adopted by wider society.

So, coming around to your question, and how that could be addressed using this model?. To be fluid, you need to have understanding of at least two gender states (my case neutrois and feminine) to transit between (making you bigender at least), a sense of gender (mild through to strong) and awareness that your personality will respond in either of those ways in similar circumstances (so your response is fluid). If you feel like you have a single gender state, that is rigid, and no sense or awareness then you are likely agender and so on. These labels are attempts to describe a sense of gender, outside the binary and the descriptions vary widely to describe common experiences (the primary confusion).

Hopefully that makes some sense, and I'm not jabbering like and old fool. Or maybe I am.

What ever, (Hugs) - enjoy your journey to find a way to best describe you

Rowan

Your theory matches close to mine and makes complete sense to me.
I think there should be a way, in society, to identify on the personality scale who you are.  Not the rigid edict that goes by what you have between your legs.  I know, that's just another label, but it's a different label, giving a better description of "this is me".

[terrakitty]

I have always said that I am agender (sometimes nongendered). I have never felt kinship with the label neutrois, but I think that could be used for me, though the word just doesn't roll off my tongue easily. Others love it, I simply can't say it out loud.

Before I had words to put to my identity, my mantra had been that gender is absurd; it's a very poor way of categorizing the universe. That isn't to invisibilize or demean other people's identities, more to personally reject making some traits/objects/actions "female" and others "male". Doing so limits everything and often incorporates oppression. However, one's joy and beauty in expressing whatever identity they embody -- whether binary or not -- is equal, personal, and does not require oppressive personality theory.

I also use "genderqueer" because I like queering things, and it rolls off the tongue in a way that makes me wiggle.

All this talk of labels/flavors of NB has been on my mind for a while. My pronouns have been ze/zir for a long time, but people never use them. Well, I tell people that if they want to be intimate friends, then using my pronouns is a prerequisite. However, all the memes and "concretizing" of gender non-binary identity on social media through making they/them the recommended pronoun has made it so that I can be in a room of primarily genderqueer folks who all use they/them, and everyone defaults to she/her for me because I don't conform. All this to say, I'm very happy there is a thread on what "flavor" of non-binary one is, especially at a time when it is becoming a "third gender" in a very concrete way that still feels like it is marginalizing folks.

[terrakitty]

I've also always been wary of spectrums, even in the "gender gumby" presentations that look at several scales (gender identity, gender expression, sexual identity, sexual orientation, etc. etc.). To have a spectrum, you locate two binary poles and then create a slider between them. That places emphasis on the binary being the norm or "frame", and that there is an "acceptable range" of variation that must take place between the two. At least, that's how it's always struck me.

I like the idea of identity just being something within ourselves that we need to fill. An a priori part of ourselves that gives meaning to our lived experience. Sometimes this will be binary: male or female, straight or gay. Sometimes this will be fluid (whether on a spectrum or not). Sometimes it is simply a field of various things that we are empowered by aligning our identity with. So I never like using a "gender spectrum," but a "gender amorphous blob" that can grow and shrink with a permeable, shapeless barrier to contain every identity that we come in contact with.

At least, this makes me comfortable so I can sleep at night.

[karenk1959]

Very complicated question ~

I believe I am a woman in a man's body, but I have been raised and educated culturally as a male. Although I would like different genitals, I do have a fondness for my present ones when having sex

So what does that make me and do I really need any kind of label?

[blackcat]

I wish I could group hug everyone in this thread right now 

In certain instances, the idea of "two spirit" resonates strongly with me... at least in the sense of having a twin self. Being late-onset with my realizations, I've always lived with this unconscious shadow side that tries to push its way out through artistic endeavors.

I've also found it helpful in trying to determine who I am and how I want to live, to consider that "other side" of myself, and ask how it would feel to perform whatever I'm currently doing as my other self. It's given me direction.

Sometimes, though, that train of thought breaks down, because my goal is unifying instead of compartmentalizing.

But I have also been divided for so long.

Another reason I wonder if I'm gravitating so strongly toward neither/nor is because once I strip everything decidedly female from my life that doesn't resonate, I feel like a place of total neutrality will allow me the clearest perspective on how I want to proceed with living authentically.

Labels are useful tools. Some of them may have more limited use than others.

I share a lot in common with girlfags, and in certain contexts I feel like the word delivers a quick, easily understood shorthand for a concept. But it doesn't capture the more subtle nuances of my being.

[Devlyn]

I wish I could group hug everyone in this thread right now 

In certain instances, the idea of "two spirit" resonates strongly with me... at least in the sense of having a twin self. Being late-onset with my realizations, I've always lived with this unconscious shadow side that tries to push its way out through artistic endeavors.

I've also found it helpful in trying to determine who I am and how I want to live, to consider that "other side" of myself, and ask how it would feel to perform whatever I'm currently doing as my other self. It's given me direction.

Sometimes, though, that train of thought breaks down, because my goal is unifying instead of compartmentalizing.

But I have also been divided for so long.

Another reason I wonder if I'm gravitating so strongly toward neither/nor is because once I strip everything decidedly female from my life that doesn't resonate, I feel like a place of total neutrality will allow me the clearest perspective on how I want to proceed with living authentically.

Labels are useful tools. Some of them may have more limited use than others.

I share a lot in common with girlfags, and in certain contexts I feel like the word delivers a quick, easily understood shorthand for a concept. But it doesn't capture the more subtle nuances of my being.

That's interesting. I  made something out of stone when I was 45, and I amazed myself because it was beautiful, and smooth, and had flowing lines. I didn't know that I could do art. A stone sculptor stepped out of me. A year later a woman did. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[blackcat]

Are you still making art? 

Making the connection between the two was like opening one of those can of snakes gags.

[Devlyn]

I still play with stone, and I make these beach glass necklaces and give them away to people I meet.



Hugs, Devlyn

[blackcat]

Those are so beautiful! I love beach glass!

[Jessica]

I still play with stone, and I make these beach glass necklaces and give them away to people I meet.



Hugs, Devlyn

Those are very nice @Devlyn Marie .  Can you meet me in New York in September?

[Devlyn]

Those are so beautiful! I love beach glass!

Those are very nice @Devlyn Marie .  Can you meet me in New York in September?

Shoot me your addresses in a PM and I'll mail you one. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[Jamie_06]

I alternate between presenting male and female as I desire. I don't like being restricted to just one.

[Beckett02]

I guess I'm something along the lines of demiboy, and maybe a touch of agender or neutrois. I don't really know that last bit. For the most part, I'm about 80% male and the extra 20% is either neutrois or a mess. It's also kind of fluid. Maybe it has something to do with how long it took me to accept myself for what I am, but it's probably just how I am.

(Btw it's really nice to see a bunch of NB people here. I always feel kinda out of place when it comes to FTM topics because I technically don't fit that entirely.).

[justine77]

Difficult to explain because I don' t think we have the right terminology, anyway here goes.... I've known since about 15 that I had characteristics of both male and female so I'm a both rather than a neither. So I ID as androgyne. Physically I am blonde, slim with delicate features, no facial hair and a female sounding if husky voice. If I dress as a girl people take me for a tomboyish female. Without clothes I look male, no chest, good muscle tone and a functional penis. If I dress as male I look like an androgynous guy. I'm quite comfortable dressing either way and it tends to be how I feel on the day. I was castrated in Aug 2015 and unsurprisingly became more feminine afterwards. Today I live and dress as a woman but can still just about get away with being male. I like to wear goth make up and short skirts at the moment. I tried TRT for 1 year, that was fine but I decided I wanted to be more female. I stopped TRT and started estrogen 3 weeks ago. I am attracted to tgirls (pre op and post op) and ocassionally androgynous looking cis women. This is a summary of what flavor I am but there's a lot more to it than this. Justine x