Looking for some takes on voice therapy

[VeronicaS1001]

Hello, everyone:

I'm sure a lot of you can probably relate to this. Over the course of my transition, I've struggled with voice. I've tried a number of methods, but nothing has really worked. My voice is okay; it's always "ma'am" on the phone. But it doesn't quite pass.

My therapist points out that yes, my voice is okay, that there are a range of women's voices, and so on. I understand what she's saying, but even though it's true it also feels like a message of false hope.

Recently, I purchased a more comprehensive and systematic self-study program, and now put in an hour a day of practice. The therapist is aware of this, but she'll still make comments that give me the impression she thinks it's nearly impossible to feminize the voice.

I was under the impression that getting the voice into a passable range is a totally realistic goal. And even though I (my own worst critic) admit my voice is okay (as in not bad but not great), it also bothers me enough that I'm less and less interested in speaking, just because the sound of my voice causes me some distress.

Is she right? Is a passable voice an unrealistic goal? Or is it that we just have different perspectives on whether or not the voice needs to be passable? Obviously, non-passing voices don't change someone's gender/gender identity, but I don't expect the world at large to understand that.

[MicheleAdams]

I struggle with voice also. Being gendered female by a stranger on the phone is fantastic and I'd say proves your therapist right. The key audible 'clues' are pitch, timbre and prosody. You need two of these to be at least in the plausible range. 

I cannot even sing a middle C, the A below that is my typical best which puts me below bass in range. So I've focused on improving my prosody along with spending most of my time in my upper ranges and am starting to get called ma'am on the phone before identifying myself... occasionally... more so every month. So I'm sure it's possible. 

People unconsciously need to gender others so much that if you reach a 51% threshold, you'll be viewed by most as who you are. Sure, there are some who will be critical and might clock you (especially if you're protecting an unpleasant tone), but for most it is simply a first impression thing. 

Singing in the car with melodic female vocal artists is one way to get practice, even if you're down an octave (or two). I found Lorde's first album very helpful. But make sure you rest your voice too, and sadly I mean use lower pitches when you can until higher is not a struggle. Like body building, you can damage the voice muscles if you push too hard.

[KathyLauren]

Hi, Veronica!

Welcome to Susan's.

My voice therapist was very clear that passability was not about pitch.  Or not just about pitch anyway. 

The target pitch that she wanted me to aim for was one full octave above my male speaking voice.  That would have gotten me gendered correctly first time, every time.  But I very quickly discovered, and she agreed, that going that high would strain my voice and could do permanent damage.  So I aimed a bit lower, a fifth above my male voice (i.e. the frequency was 50% higher).  That, I could manage without strain.  I pretty much have that nailed now and can hit it most times if I don't have a cough, and if I am not tired or dehydrated.

Much more important is the intonation of the voice: how the pitch varies during a sentence.  My therapist played a recording of Laverne Cox through her pitch meter.  It showed that Ms. Cox has a pitch that is still in the male range, yet she sounds female because her intonation is good.  I still have to work at that.  The one male "tell" that I recognized on recordings of my voice is that I tend to let my pitch drop to the relaxed (male) level at the end of a sentence.  I'm working on not doing that.

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[VeronicaS1001]

I struggle with voice also. Being gendered female by a stranger on the phone is fantastic and I'd say proves your therapist right. The key audible 'clues' are pitch, timbre and prosody. You need two of these to be at least in the plausible range.

I agree the therapist is right, in that my voice is "okay" (again, meaning "not bad" rather than "passable."). I definitely have pitch down, and *probably* prosody, but definitely not timbre/resonance. That's also the quality that by far makes the most difference.

I cannot even sing a middle C, the A below that is my typical best which puts me below bass in range. So I've focused on improving my prosody along with spending most of my time in my upper ranges and am starting to get called ma'am on the phone before identifying myself... occasionally... more so every month. So I'm sure it's possible.

It's great that you're improving your voice. I'm not a vocal therapist myself, but I would imagine that even if you can't get to that note for a while, if you can get the resonance down, you're good. I've met plenty of non-transgender women whose voices are deeper than the typical female range, and they're quite obviously women.

My question might be unanswerable. I understand the therapist's points about my voice being okay, and about human voices more generally. What I don't understand is why she seems to believe that "perfecting" the voice (in my case, getting the resonance down) is not...a realistic goal? A necessary goal? My understanding is that it's more like working hard to achieve competence on an instrument, rather than becoming some sort of world-renowned virtuoso.

[Harley Quinn]

While it is true that we are almost always our own worst critics, striving for perfection is not crazy.  If you're unsatisfied, continue to work on it.  There is nothing wrong with bettering yourself.  Just remember while you're working on finding your voice, that you don't forget just how far you've come.  Take pride in the voice you've achieved already while you  continue to make it better.  The biggest setback that will hinder forward progress, from my experience, is to look down on the voice you've achieved thus far.

[Janes Groove]

My voice is okay; it's always "ma'am" on the phone. But it doesn't quite pass.

I don't understand this statement.

[VeronicaS1001]

I don't understand this statement.

Hi: That's a good question. 

Probably what's happening is something like this: The customer service rep (or whoever) the other end hears my voice, perceives the pitch is in a distinctly feminine range, and that the intonation is more or less in that range, too. By default, the rep (correctly) addresses me as "ma'am," since the voice is closer to feminine than masculine. For any number of reasons, they're not going to question my gender.

Nevertheless, the resonance is not in a female range, and there may (or may not) be some other little imperfections I haven't quite overcome.

If I posted a clip of my voice, I'm fairly certain the majority of forum users would agree with my overall assessment. As the therapist says, my voice is more feminine than masculine. But the same users would agree that it doesn't "pass."

[VeronicaS1001]

While it is true that we are almost always our own worst critics, striving for perfection is not crazy.  If you're unsatisfied, continue to work on it.  There is nothing wrong with bettering yourself.  Just remember while you're working on finding your voice, that you don't forget just how far you've come.  Take pride in the voice you've achieved already while you  continue to make it better.  The biggest setback that will hinder forward progress, from my experience, is to look down on the voice you've achieved thus far.

Thanks!  I think that is the best perspective (for me, at least) I've encountered on this topic.

I've watched a number of transgender voice videos on YouTube in which a transgender woman will say something about how even her voice doesn't "pass." I get that she might not be voiceover actress material, but I don't understand how she can't hear that her voice very clearly "passes." I don't know any of these people IRL, and I'm not going to name names online; so I wouldn't have any issue stating that they're right, that their voices don't really "pass."

[Dena]

Welcome to Susan's Place. Voice is pretty complex as it takes a number of factor to make it sound feminine. One of our members was hitting 250HZ which is the feminine range but because of other issues, it still wasn't passable. Bea Arthur has a voice like a fog horn but it still sounds feminine. In my case, my voice centered around 130-140HZ which is the masculine range and the only way of hitting feminine pitches what through surgery. I would suggest you look at the check list and see if you can determine what the issue if any there is with your voice.

[Karen_A]

In my case, my voice centered around 130-140HZ which is the masculine range and the only way of hitting feminine pitches what through surgery.

Back in 1999 I tried what was then an experimental technique (and now abandoned AFAIK) call LAVA (Laser Assisted Voce Adjustment).. The idea was to hit the vocal cords with a laser and two things... burn off some mass and have scar tissue stiffen them... In theory that should raise pitch... in practice it did not... I can't find my after voice analysis results but they were a minimal (inaudible) increase on average and actually took out some of the highest part of my original range...

My before LAVA numbers reading the 'rainbow sentence' were:
Pitch: (Hz)
Mean:   149.23
Min: 110.13
Max: 211.86
Std Deviation 16.21

it's been over 20 years since my transition and some days I get taken as female on the phone and some days as male.

I did try professional voice therapy but did not help much.

- karen

[VeronicaS1001]

Back in 1999 I tried what was then an experimental technique (and now abandoned AFAIK) call LAVA (Laser Assisted Voce Adjustment).. The idea was to hit the vocal cords with a laser and two things... burn off some mass and have scar tissue stiffen them... In theory that should raise pitch... in practice it did not... I can't find my after voice analysis results but they were a minimal (inaudible) increase on average and actually took out some of the highest part of my original range...

My before LAVA numbers reading the 'rainbow sentence' were:
Pitch: (Hz)
Mean:   149.23
Min: 110.13
Max: 211.86
Std Deviation 16.21

it's been over 20 years since my transition and some days I get taken as female on the phone and some days as male.

I did try professional voice therapy but did not help much.

- karen

I'm sorry to hear that voice therapy and surgery have not helped much.

The previous study materials I'd used started with pitch. I wonder if this isn't a mistake, since it now seems intuitive to me that the first step is developing the muscles needed to alter the voice; pitch may be an important quality, but it will be easier to speak in the target pitch range if those muscles are trained. But those materials didn't lay out a daily routine or provide any information about how long to expect to spend on certain materials, or anything like that.

What I like about the course I'm using now is that it does present a daily routine and so on. Also, the course creator is available for lessons by phone. I'm still at the beginning of the Beginner stage, but at the very least, I can feel things going on in my mouth and vocal cords.

But I suppose my big question here, whether or not achieving a "passable" voice is a realistic goal, is one I'm going to have to answer on my own. It just seems odd to me that this wouldn't be a realistic goal, even if it involves work, mistakes, experimentation, and all the usual sacrifices.

[Dena]

Breathing and getting the head voice done early is important. Until you instinctively do this, there is always the risk that you will fall into your old habits. Another member had voice surgery and when I first heard the post surgical voice, I couldn't believe how feminine it sounded. After I asked for and heard the pre op voice, I understood why. The pre voice was a very singsong male voice with everything required other than the pitch. Once you drop below a certain pitch, it becomes the male no matter how hard you try. Unfortunately it doesn't work the other way around so you need pitch with most of the other factors to sound feminine.