Gender Is Confusing

[LucyEgo]

As AMAB and liberal, I've grown up with the core belief that we should have equal opportunities. There aren't certain jobs for certain genders. There's no distinction. Discrimination and cliques are all social constructs which need to come toppling down. I came to believe that there's a wide range of men and a wide range of women. From girly girls to butch women, from manly men to sensitve men. It doesn't make people any less or more of a woman or a man.

So some of the things I hear about gender identity seem absolutely preposterous to me.

For example, one of the questions for MTF's are:

Do you like to wear women's clothing?
Let me get this straight. Clothing defines if you're a woman or not does it? Im pretty sure I see women wearing "mans" clothes, whatever the hell that is. It doesn't stop them being any more womanly. Isn't being a woman an internal feeling? Maybe liking to wear womens clothing is some sensory issue - preferring the colour, style, shape, feel? Why is this such an automatic indicator?

If I look through the rest of the tests, then it paints a picture that men are useless with their feelings, don't like to take time shopping, great at maths, prefer to know what people do rather than personal things about their family, they find it difficult to work out peoples feelings and prefer to talk about business and politics.

It's a very ugly black and white world. Maybe that's my problem. Maybe Im trying too hard to be something Im not and failing miserably. I want to talk about relationships and feelings. So maybe instead I should just sit in a corner and be a typical grunting male scratching myself. But Im not happy with that either because Im tragically lonely.

Don't these tests paint a very stereotypical view of men and womens gender roles? Surely therefore transgender thoughts are beyond gender roles?

Lucy

[HappyMoni]

As AMAB and liberal, I've grown up with the core belief that we should have equal opportunities. There aren't certain jobs for certain genders. There's no distinction. Discrimination and cliques are all social constructs which need to come toppling down. I came to believe that there's a wide range of men and a wide range of women. From girly girls to butch women, from manly men to sensitve men. It doesn't make people any less or more of a woman or a man.

So some of the things I hear about gender identity seem absolutely preposterous to me.

For example, one of the questions for MTF's are:

Do you like to wear women's clothing?
Let me get this straight. Clothing defines if you're a woman or not does it? Im pretty sure I see women wearing "mans" clothes, whatever the hell that is. It doesn't stop them being any more womanly. Isn't being a woman an internal feeling? Maybe liking to wear womens clothing is some sensory issue - preferring the colour, style, shape, feel? Why is this such an automatic indicator?

If I look through the rest of the tests, then it paints a picture that men are useless with their feelings, don't like to take time shopping, great at maths, prefer to know what people do rather than personal things about their family, they find it difficult to work out peoples feelings and prefer to talk about business and politics.

It's a very ugly black and white world. Maybe that's my problem. Maybe Im trying too hard to be something Im not and failing miserably. I want to talk about relationships and feelings. So maybe instead I should just sit in a corner and be a typical grunting male scratching myself. But Im not happy with that either because Im tragically lonely.

Don't these tests paint a very stereotypical view of men and womens gender roles? Surely therefore transgender thoughts are beyond gender roles?

Lucy

Lucy, respectfully, I am not sure what you are trying to figure out here. Is it a test to see if you think you are trans, or a vent about stereotypical gender related questions? Are you trying to see where you fit in with things? Help,I don't understand.

[LucyEgo]

It's a little of everything. The online "are you mtf" tests seem to adhere to stereoptypical gender roles. But surely in the 21st century, these barriers no longer exist. There's no such thing as typical, and rightly so.

I know I've been asked how I feel when I dress up and recommendations to get dressed up and go out publicly to explore. But why does dressing up matter? Is there really typical womens clothing? I see so many different styles to know there's no such thing as typical. I've seen women in jeans and t-shirts. So. What is womens clothing?

I guess Im trying to work out where I fit in, it's about my identity. I figure that what I wear or my sensitivity and my unease with stereotypical male things doesn't and shouldn't dictate my gender.  I could be a sensitive man, wearing frilly clothes, enjoying friendships with women, talking about feelings. I need to figure out whether Im sensitive or MTF.

Just finding it a bit difficult recognising other signs but I know I've got loads which I'll post separately.

Lucy

[KathyLauren]

Clothes don't make you a particular gender.  But being a particular gender can influence your taste in clothes.  You could, in theory, be a man and wear skirts and frilly clothes (good luck with that!) and not be a woman.  But you would get some funny looks and comments, because clothes like that, in our society are considered "women's clothes".

I like to wear bright colours, flowing fabrics, floral patters, lace, etc, but that doesn't make me a woman.  I am a woman because that is what I am.  Liking those clothes is an indication of my gender, not a cause of it.  Even when wearing jeans, I wear "women's" jeans, because I look good in them, and because they send a signal to the world of who I am.  I like it when people see me as I really am, and I choose clothes that help in that perception.

If you are having trouble determining if you are transgender, you should talk to a gender therapist.  That is what they do: helping people to figure out exactly that.

[HappyMoni]

Lucy, it is a highly individual thing I would say. There is nothing wrong with you not going along with dressing stereotypes. It is also okay for me to enjoy the things (that might be stereotypical) that I like. A good friend of mine worked on cars and was what might be considered a 'tom boy' at heart, but was trans in her heart because she identified as a woman. I guess it is bad when the stereotypes tell you what you can't do. A suggestion to go out and dress is so that you get a feeling for what it would be like to be regarded as a woman. That, to me, is valuable information. No test can tell you if you are trans. It is more to do with what you  are drawn to. You could be drawn to being male, female, or non binary. Maybe for you, you pick the things that are right for you.
Moni

[Rachel]

Gender external ques are a social construct.

I wear woman's clothing and like how it fits and how it looks on me. When I needed to do 1 year RLE for GCS I was scared. I had to come out and express. When you come out people expect you to express. They expect you to wear certain styles at work and outside of work. It took me a while to get comfortable in female clothing but when I got comfortable I like the huge amount of choices and variety of styles. It does not make me a girl. It is what is expected and it has some great benefits.

I had some thoughts when I had to do RLE for GCS like what business is it of anyone how my genitals are configured. Why do I have to do this? It is so scary. Well I am post op over 1.5 years.

About two months ago some woman during lunch went shopping with me. They picked out a lot of cloths for me to try on. The clothes were tighter than I am use to. I have since experimented with some tighter and stretch type work pants and out of work pants. I do like the look, it just took some getting use to. I guess the whole RLE took some getting use to. 

Yes, it is sexist and it does not make you any different. It does help you to conform to the expected social norms and fit in.

[LucyEgo]

Thanks everyone. Especially Kathy. What you said, I would have no chance of explaining that to anyone else. It doesn't make logical sense to me, but I understand it, I get it. It makes sense. The clothes are an indication, not a cause and it sends an indication to others.

I fight against the idea of gender stereotyping and societal norms. Some fight for womens only areas and point to the threat that men pose, I fight for everyone to get together and accept that abuse occurs on both sides and instead of splitting ourselves apart and having single voices, we come together to fight for justice and security for all.

I hate in society that men stick with male friends and women stick with female friends. The idea that "men and women can never be just friends" sounds stupid to me. Why not? Why should I "conform" to be accepted? Either to be a male and be accepted as a male, or transition to become a woman and be accepted as a woman.

I have a hard time correlating the idea of masculine or feminine dress to gie a certain persona. Yet at the same time, instinctively, I know that there is a difference between men and womens clothing and behaviour.

I guess I have a certain incongruence between instinct and mind.

I wonder if my mind if fighting the transgender thoughts while my body is screaming to be a woman? Sitting here, I wonder if somehow what I've actually done, is to neutralise the feminine threat to my masculinity by redefining (to myself) men and women and trying to break gender stereotypes?

I think this is a great topic to discuss with my therapist.

Thank you all, and I hope I didn't come across as offensive. Im just trying to work everything out for myself.

Lucy

[KathyLauren]

I wonder if my mind if fighting the transgender thoughts while my body is screaming to be a woman? Sitting here, I wonder if somehow what I've actually done, is to neutralise the feminine threat to my masculinity by redefining (to myself) men and women and trying to break gender stereotypes?

I think most of us who realize our true nature as adults do this at some point.

There is a feminist ideology that holds that there is no difference between male and female brains.  While I sympathize with the political reasoning behind that belief, it is contradicted by the scientific evidence.  Male and female brains are different.  Trans women have brains that are physically female.

And, since the mind "lives in" the brain, it makes sense that men and women will have different thought and feelings.

[Sephirah]

As AMAB and liberal, I've grown up with the core belief that we should have equal opportunities. There aren't certain jobs for certain genders. There's no distinction. Discrimination and cliques are all social constructs which need to come toppling down. I came to believe that there's a wide range of men and a wide range of women. From girly girls to butch women, from manly men to sensitve men. It doesn't make people any less or more of a woman or a man.

So some of the things I hear about gender identity seem absolutely preposterous to me.

For example, one of the questions for MTF's are:

Do you like to wear women's clothing?
Let me get this straight. Clothing defines if you're a woman or not does it? Im pretty sure I see women wearing "mans" clothes, whatever the hell that is. It doesn't stop them being any more womanly. Isn't being a woman an internal feeling? Maybe liking to wear womens clothing is some sensory issue - preferring the colour, style, shape, feel? Why is this such an automatic indicator?

If I look through the rest of the tests, then it paints a picture that men are useless with their feelings, don't like to take time shopping, great at maths, prefer to know what people do rather than personal things about their family, they find it difficult to work out peoples feelings and prefer to talk about business and politics.

It's a very ugly black and white world. Maybe that's my problem. Maybe Im trying too hard to be something Im not and failing miserably. I want to talk about relationships and feelings. So maybe instead I should just sit in a corner and be a typical grunting male scratching myself. But Im not happy with that either because Im tragically lonely.

Don't these tests paint a very stereotypical view of men and womens gender roles? Surely therefore transgender thoughts are beyond gender roles?

Lucy

Honestly after reading your post, Lucy, I kind of agree with most of what you've written. There are a lot of stereotypes floating around. There are as many different kinds of people are there are grains of sand on a beach. And for every person you find who likes one thing, you'll find someone who likes something else.

For every assertion of something, or test to prove something, you'll find people who don't fit that criteria. And that's okay. Sometimes the "tests" are done by people basically clutching at straws. Because they don't have a frame of reference to draw on to basically understand a feeling they don't feel. It's sometimes an "if the cap fits" scenario.

I'll give you an example. One of the first people I came out to, he couldn't wrap his head around it. Like at all. I had a conversation with him that lasted like two hours. And literally almost the entire time of that was answering questions based around "So do you like to do.. <insert female dress, hobby, pastime, mannerism here>?" sort of thing. And he just didn't get it when I said no to some of his questions. It just didn't compute. For him it was like "You say you're a woman so you have to like wearing dresses."

Why?

Why must I like wearing dresses? Because women like wearing dresses? Because people expect women to wear dresses?

No. I don't subscribe to that at all. For me, gender is a feeling. It's just a feeling. A knowing of who you are. On a primal level. It's like knowing the sky is blue, or grass is green. It's just something you feel at the very core of your being. How you express yourself is something entirely different. There are tomboys, and there are girly girls. And every stage in between. That's how people work. It's called individuality. But what these people have in common is that their gender is never an issue, because it's never an issue to them. It's not something they, or anyone else thinks about.

These tests make it an issue. They use it as a way to prove you are who you say you are. It uses things done by people to basically confirm gender. And that, for me, is a slap in the face to every cis person who doesn't subscribe to that. Who doesn't hold with the "You are man so you must do this, and you are woman so you must do that." And for non-binary people it must be doubly insulting/confusing/invalidating.

No. We are who we are first. And we do what we do second. That's life. That's being human. You can't change who you are. Gender isn't confusing. It's the things people attribute to it which is confusing. And arbitrary.

[pamelatransuk]

I hate in society that men stick with male friends and women stick with female friends. The idea that "men and women can never be just friends" sounds stupid to me.

I wonder if my mind if fighting the transgender thoughts while my body is screaming to be a woman? Sitting here, I wonder if somehow what I've actually done, is to neutralise the feminine threat to my masculinity by redefining (to myself) men and women and trying to break gender stereotypes?

Lucy

Hello again Lucy

I agree with all your thoughts and choose to highlight these 2 paras above:

1. I agree that so many people (not all) truly believe men and women can never be just friends. Of course they can and many are without any sexual or romantic element - they are simply friends.

2. What you describe in terms of neutralizing, I have done all my life and I bet many more of us have too!

Hugs

Pamela

[pamelatransuk]

Hello again Sephirah

Thank you for your analysis with which I wholeheartedly agree.

We can dispense with the "gender tests" not only because of the many exceptions to the "stereotype" which in itself is false and a social construct but also they are likely "set" by people who not feel the way we feel. This is ironic as it only transgender people like us that think every day about the subject of gender as opposed to cispeople who do not.

Gender is not detremined by clothing or interests or habits, it is an innate thing, an internal feeling, the mind, the spirit simply tells us we are female. Our brain controls all of our being - our female brain.

Hugs

Pamela 

[LucyEgo]

For me, gender is a feeling. It's just a feeling. A knowing of who you are. On a primal level. It's like knowing the sky is blue, or grass is green. It's just something you feel at the very core of your being. How you express yourself is something entirely different. There are tomboys, and there are girly girls. And every stage in between. That's how people work. It's called individuality. But what these people have in common is that their gender is never an issue, because it's never an issue to them. It's not something they, or anyone else thinks about.

These tests make it an issue. They use it as a way to prove you are who you say you are. It uses things done by people to basically confirm gender. And that, for me, is a slap in the face to every cis person who doesn't subscribe to that. Who doesn't hold with the "You are man so you must do this, and you are woman so you must do that." And for non-binary people it must be doubly insulting/confusing/invalidating.

No. We are who we are first. And we do what we do second. That's life. That's being human. You can't change who you are. Gender isn't confusing. It's the things people attribute to it which is confusing. And arbitrary.

Thanks pamela and Sephiarah,

This is why this whole thing is going to be so confusing, trying to unravel the thoughts, from the stereotype gender expectation, to how I express myself...

In example... wanting to embrace and express my feminine self (I know I have one) may be more about acknowledging this duality, a comfortableness in my masculinity, a non-desire for alpha male machismo. Wanting to be friends with women may just be about breaking down gender roles and finding more comfort, meaning and happiness there. None of this may be a gender dysphoria or an acknowledgement of being transgender. However it may be.

Everything is so finely interwoven and interlinked.

I must admit though, while I was trying to keep the above neutral, I just figured... I want to be friends with women, I find more meaning there. Surely that's a strong indication right there.

I've been putting together some memories over my years.

I've got the stronger relationships with females through my life, cousins, nieces, aunts, sisters women etc... which I think I may have written off as nothing to do with me, just their caring mothering instincts. I don't know how common this is, but sticking cushions up your jumper pretending you were pregnant, or putting balloons down your top pretending you had breasts. There's hidden gay thoughts. I used to roll up my underwear to make a sort of thong. Preferred stereotypically non male activities in school, like cooking and crafts. Always criticised for having a high voice.

Amazing that all this is coming out.