Question for guys and those socialized as guys

[Lucca]

I wasn't ordering you to drop it, I'm just saying that people who hold regressive anti-LGBT views should drop it. I try to be polite, but very firm. I don't think it does much good to give validity to their fears. Sure, legalizing gay marriage is a slippery slope to legalizing gay adoption- so what? Unless there's genuine scientific evidence that children are significantly worse off being raised by same-sex parents, that shouldn't matter. I think that children would be better off without conservative Christian adoptive parents, but I'm not getting my wish. Not just because it would never come true in a million years, but because that's a level of government control I'm not comfortable pushing.

I'll take for granted that there are some kids who might be damaged by thinking they're trans when they're not, but that's a smaller number than those who will benefit from greater acceptance and knowledge about trans people among children in school. Rolling back the progress made instead of finding ways to minimize the side effects is a poor tactic. We might as well remove anti-segregation sentiment from our classrooms because someone is afraid their child will catch white guilt.

Besides which, I've known plenty of people who were against gay marriage because they thought it was gross, because they thought it devalued their own marriage, or because they thought God commanded them to be against it. I'm not convinced the majority of anti-LGBT people are very high-minded. I've had enough conversations with them on the subject to realize that.

[Kylo]

All I require is equal rights and equality of opportunity - I don't need to have their personal acceptance and endorsement. I'm not going to change their minds by ranting at them, anyway. I've had better results talking to these people like a human being, and not talking down to them.

Point is, we don't know what's good for kids in this context yet. They don't and neither do we. But we are acting like we have all the answers. Just this week I saw a BBC segment telling people it's wrong to treat kids stereotypically by gender - aimed at adults who don't know a young child personally. So they got a male and female toddler, swapped their clothes and names, then presented them to a bunch of adults to embarrass the adults into seeing how gendered their treatment of the kids was when they handed the "boy" a car and the "girl" a doll. So wrapped up in making their point about how we mustn't treat kids a certain way they didn't even stop to think that cross-dressing the child and presenting it to someone with a different name is also treating the kid in a way likely to have a negative or confusing effect for the child itself. But that doesn't matter when one is busy hammering an agenda across, I suppose.

And then you've got those parents who delight in telling the press they're raising their (non trans) child genderless, introducing them as "them" and "they". Not for me to tell someone how to raise their child but they're recommending the rest of us do the same. And how do they know that won't have a damaging effect to raise the child that way? To call it "they" and "them" in front of a class of kids raised as "boys" and "girls". I'm not a rocket scientist but I know kids are super-sensitive to anything that might make them look 'weird' in front of their peers, and if my parents had done that in front of my classmates, I know I'd be in for a whale of a time with those other kids. It honestly seems to me that these parents are just out to signal how hip and progressive they are without much thought for the effect it's going to have on their kid who isn't even apparently trans.

Could I argue with that when people said to me they had some concerns about such behavior? I couldn't. Because I certainly wouldn't treat my own child like an experiment, either.

From my interactions with some of those people with "concerns" about the LGBT they're less bothered about what we do personally as adults than the effect this experimental culture is having when directly applied to kids. And to that I have no answer. Because it's going to have some effect, and it's a very, very tricky area. You might have simply run into genuine bigots in your experience. I tend to run into people who are open minded enough to talk with me on the subject matter, and have fair points about whether or not people who are not LGBT should be subjected to LGBT issues. And I have to agree, I'm not sure they should if they are children. They should have access to information and help if they require it, but advising to give every child completely genderless treatment etc. seems a bit much. If they want to dislike pride month or moan about gay marriage, that's their choice. When they start talking about LGBT issues being projected onto kids lately though, they have a point that is very difficult to argue with. 

They're concerned because they perceive they are being forced to swallow it. I've said it many times and one more for good measure - if you try to get something by force, including acceptance, you only get resistance back.

[The Flying Lemur]

In regards to masculinity, I'd like to see a world where men aren't derided for being masculine in positive or harmless ways, but also aren't forced into being masculine, either, and can be however they want to be. I don't know how how closely that fits your ideal, exactly.

I agree that it would be ideal if we could all be our most authentic, comfortable selves all the time.  However, you can't be what you can't see, as they say.  How do I know what my most authentic self is like if I've never been educated about the different "selfhood" options that are out there?  It's better if you have this kind of education in your youth, but it's never too late to learn.  So I asked.  :p

In reading, I've run across a few interesting things about masculinity.  One is the perceived distinction between "being a good man" and "being a real man."  Mr. Rogers strikes me as someone who was "a good man."  He was caring, compassionate, collected and determined in the face of adversity, gentle with the vulnerable, and faithful to his wife.  By contrast, a lot of Trump's supporters are thrilled that he is, to them, "a real man."  By this they appear to mean that he acts entitled to women's bodies and is quick to take offense and threaten violence.  When the subject of "real" manhood comes up, Trump is frequently contrasted with Obama, who remained unflappable in the face of insults and to my knowledge never publicly spoke of women in a sexual way.  That sort of cool-bloodedness is not "real."  "Real" is uncensored, politically incorrect, aggressive, messy, and honestly, kind of "bad."  "Real" also probably means "relatable" in a way that "good" is not.

I don't know how we got to a place where being "good" is the near opposite of being "real," but here we are.  No wonder boys are confused.

Another interesting thing I found was that there are two competing definitions of "manhood."  In one, manhood is the opposite of womanhood.  All things soft and feminine are the antithesis of manliness.  In the other, manhood is the opposite of childhood.  A man is someone who has put childish self-centeredness and impulsivity behind him. 

I don't think it's quite so simple as to say that being a good man is the opposite of being a child, while being a real man is the opposite of being a woman, but I believe there is some congruence there.  Of the two definitions, it strikes me that it makes more sense to distinguish manhood from childhood than manhood from womanhood, because there are much greater differences between an adult and a child than there are between a man and a woman.  To make the "opposite of womanhood" thing work, you have to really exaggerate the differences between the sexes, to the point where they both become stereotypes.  It doesn't bother me particularly that both manhood and womanhood can be seen as the opposites of childhood.  There are distinctions between manhood and womanhood, but they're subtle, and not really worth making a big deal over. 

As for how to deal with anti-LGBT people, I kind of don't.  I don't run into them often, and when I do, I tend to calmly state my own position and walk away.   Perhaps not as socially responsible as trying to change their minds, sympathetically or otherwise, but it's definitely better for my emotional health.  Maybe after a while things will feel less raw, and I'll be better able to engage them.

[Lucca]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, Kylo. I don't think we should refuse to do something just because people think it might be harmful. You need actual scientific evidence for that, not simple fear. If we don't know what will happen, then we don't know it'll be bad. The genderless child raising doesn't sound great, but then, I don't think that's really a common concept at this time, either. At the very least, I would hope that if the child says they want to be referred to and appear as a particular gender at some point, the parents will listen.

Ranting at someone won't help anyone, but giving them undue credit won't help, either. Some things are just wrong or incorrect and should be treated as such.

Edit: BTW, just want to make it clear I've enjoyed this discussion and hope their are no hard feelings; I might make a separate thread with links to some studies when I have the time, but I think we're at risk of derailing this thread at this point.

[Chloe]

Bookmarked this for later Flying Lemur. No time now but wanted to say . . .

         Was Very Proud of my dad when younger in part because . . . he was always working and never there (until much later?) In the mid-fifties he had a very glamorous working class "dream job" where the work was clearly divided by gender roles so perhaps THAT'S where my sense of 'binary' originates from?

Both were "ex-Marines" (where they met) but mom never worked, was definitely the traditional "stay-at-home" with family type!

[Virginia]

I was blessed with amazing an example of what I could only hope to grow up to be as a man~ My Father.

[The Flying Lemur]

That's awesome, Virginia!  What where the specific qualities or actions that you admired?

[Virginia]

His balance and confidence in who he was, TheFlyingLemur.
Despite all the damage my parents did to me growing up, they instilled their strong sense of self-confidence. My Old Man was a rock of strength to our family; Slow to judge but quick to defend; Open-minded but cautious about changing his opinion. He cried when something was sad and laughed when it was funny; Was never afraid to say he was sorry, didn't swear around me til I was man, but NEVER took God's name in vain. ... And he could kick my tail and drink me under the table til the day he died. As far as being a man, my Father had the tiger by theb@lls, TheFlyingLemur.  I am proud to be his son. I sound like a friggin country western song...

[Julia1996]

I was born male but I was not really socialized as a male. Thankfully my dad allowed me to pretty much be what I was. I don't know what being a man is like but I consider my dad to be at least what I consider, a perfect mix to being a man. He was a Marine and he's now a cop. He's very masculine and has typical guy interests. But he's also a very loving father who has never had a problem being affectionate and loving with his kids. It's sad to hear how some fathers never show their kids love.  He's also secure enough in his own identity that he has never had a problem or issues with LGBT people. But he was certainly not raised to be that way. My grandpa is pretty much the opposite of my dad. If I were male I would want to be the type of guy my dad is.

[Sno]

The 'be a man' statement and teachings are a process of hypocrisy and a lot is based around strength. As my personal reserves of that are non-existent, thee are real tangible negative outcomes. It's also based around entitlement (the main cause of upset from the loss of so called 'men only spaces'), and the visibility that lack of seclusion has thrown on the typical challenges that are used to demonstrate how 'alpha' as a man you are, and where, therefore you fit in the power hierarchy. Be a man, curtail emotional response. That's a manly thing to do, because it relies on strength. What a man, because he showed initiative and proved his resourcefulness and independence.

But then, this is what I am not - I am omega. I believe that whilst it may appear that there is no clear direction, it is quite simply because the direction isn't any longer one way, as is often the case when there are fundamental changes in progress.

I shall now return to my planet.

Sno.

[christinej78]

Jeez the answer to this will vary greatly with age location and even the type of father figure we had in our up bringing.

For me that was a real tough father who never shed a tear, who worked hard and showed little affection.
We where all brought up to be tough, manual hands on people. He has had a profound impact on the people we are today. My brother's find it hard to get on with him.
I think my innate feminine side aloud me to get on with him and put aside his harsh ways. Many a beating was had in our times as kids, I won't be holding it to him though.
The small things that bother me bout him was his inability to do the most simplest things like say happy birthday come birthday time., And along with my mother and my brothers we must have a collective age of some 150 years.
I have never heard him say happy birthday. So far he has never called me Rachel.
I see him most days. I don't let it get to me. It's not nice mind
I think a few situations could have changed his attitude, no. 1 being having a daughter. I'm sure he would have been nicer had we had a sister growing up.

When I was a "man" I followed the unspoken rules I seen before me, and I was a tough one, worked hard as hell. Working on farms, mechanics all sorts of "masculine" things.
I think honestly I painted the picture of a guy I would like to date. Ha
I also attended an all boys Catholic school from 13-19. I already felt female when I ended up there

Now to be honest I try not to resent what I learned with my strange upbringing.
Some things I luckily learned to love like mechanics and cars.
I think my love of them kept me alive when I most certainly would have perished

Anyway that's abit of a ramble really. And the perspective of rural Catholic Ireland

Something might be of use in there lol

Hi Rachel,                       05 Aug 2018

You are a very beautiful lady. Spent a good bit of time in Ireland a couple of years ago, 1966 to be exact; maybe a little more than a couple.

Raised by alcoholic parents gives one a good grounding in how to become one. Fortunately, I gave up alcohol but not before consuming considerable quantities. I think I started drinking at the age of 2. I was allowed to sip the foam from glasses of beer. Almost always managed to sip some of the stuff below the suds.

To be frank, I didn't learn much from my father that was good. I learned nasty stuff because he was nasty a good part of the time. I relied on other men as my role models.

I also spent time in catholic prisons from the age of 6 - 14, grades 1 - 9. I despised every second I spent in those hell holes. My folks were evil and so were the nuns.

If it weren't for my friends and concerned adults that intervened in my life, I probably would not be here (alive) today. I had a tough time with relationships; knew there was something wrong with me, just not what. At 47 YOA, I finally found out why my life was so screwed up; it was the alcoholism of my parents.

My life turned around because of adults that took an interest in me, my high school Dean of Boys, my close friends and the US Navy.

Now that I have transitioned to female, I know I am where I belong. There are male and female things I like to do. I think there is a great advantage to being transgender; you can do anything you want to do and most people don't have a problem with it. There will always be the bigots and jerks. Both are stupid so neither one is worth bothering with; they can't be fixed because you can't fix stupid.

I prefer being a woman even though I'll never be an attractive female. I'll just travel along and accept what comes. I'm more free than I have ever been.

My only regret is that I didn't begin my transition long ago. But, had I done so, one special person in my life probably wouldn't be there. Where my life is today, makes all the bumps, detours and pit stops worth the trip.

To be clear, my folks provided me with a nice house, clean clothes. good food and stuff. They didn't provide love, proper guidance/example or a home.

If this narrative doesn't fit your thread feel free to delete it. Hope I provided some insight and or help to at least one person. If I didn't, please apply for a refund; they will be sent out the second Tuesday of last week.

Best Always, Love,
Christine