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Is there a useful window for progesterone?

Started by RobynD, July 03, 2017, 03:01:56 PM

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Lucy Ross

Quote from: LexiDreamer on July 06, 2017, 11:38:33 AM
I find it funny that doctors seem to forget (or ignore) that Tanner stage 5 breast development is only attained after pregnancy.

Couldn't find a source that had much solid info while on my phone at work, but Stage 5 is mature form and shape plus recession of the areole into the general contours of the breast.  You don't have to be pregnant for that.

QuoteKnown side effects of progesterone include:  dizziness, drowsiness, sleepiness, and fatigue, and can, via oral administration, also cause depression and anxiety.

Sounds like a late night TV commercial.
1982-1985 Teenage Crossdresser!
2015-2017 Middle Aged Crossdresser!  Or...?
April 2017 Electrolysis Time  :icon_yikes:
July 12th, 2017 Started HRT  :icon_chick:
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josie76

Having done a ton of research myself more recently on bioidenticle progesterone (not all done yet), I am convinced more than ever that it should be included with any estrogen therapy. Everyone can have their own opinion on this, it seems every doctor and NP does.

My reasoning:
1: progesterone is the primary precursor route of nearly every regulatory hormone and gene action modifier in the HPA axes and the HPG axes. It's 35+ metabolites include 4 neuro-regulating hormones, 3 which can reverse thrombosis risk by directly reversing calcium ion egress from platelet cells in the blood stream, and others which reduce blood pressure both through indirect means and by directly affecting vasodilation as well as those controlling cholesterol, triglycerides, and lipids produced.

2: cis males produce their body's needed progesterone from the testes and in much smaller amounts from the hypothalamus in the brain. We trans-women remove the testes production at the same time we lower or remove the testosterone production from the testes.
Logically following is trans-women operate on a progesterone deficiency overall.

3: cis females bodies produce progesterone at female levels beginning with the first menstral cycle. So while they grow up having a few years of pre-puberty with mainly slowly rising estrogen, the remainder of their lives, their bodies produce progesterone to match estrogen in ratio. (This ratio drops off as they get towards middle age and menapause, see increased symptoms associated with decrease in P in the ratio).
Logically following trans-women are at a significant progesterone deficiency when comparing ratios of estrogen.


Breast development, a number of sources indicate stage5 is only reached after several months of pregnancy level estrogen and progesterone and that in early trans women who were treated with synthetic estrogen's that cone shaped breasts were a common situation until progesterone was added.
Biologically in breast tissues, progesterone works with HGH and insulin with like growth factors 1 and 2 to mature the tissues. Progesterone and estrogen work in synergism in breast growth and development. In other words one increases the effectiveness of the other.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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KayXo

Quote from: josie76 on December 12, 2017, 06:30:06 AMprogesterone is the primary precursor route of nearly every regulatory hormone and gene action modifier in the HPA axes and the HPG axes.

I believe cholesterol is the primary precursor of all hormones.

Quotecontrolling cholesterol, triglycerides, and lipids produced.

PLoS One. 2014 Jan 21;9(1)

"Progesterone (n = 65) and placebo (n = 47) groups had similar changes in systolic and diastolic blood pressure, resting heart rate, weight, body mass index, waist circumference, total cholesterol, low-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels."

"Results indicate that progesterone has short-term cardiovascular safety. Endothelial function, weight, bloodpressure, waist circumference, inflammation and coagulation were unchanged"

J Hypertens. 2003 Jun;21(6):1145-9.

"In a randomized, double-blind, cross-over design study, 20 healthy postmenopausal women were tested before and after 6 weeks of treatment with micronized progesterone"

"Systemic arterial compliance, flow mediated dilation, cutaneous vascular reactivity, blood pressure, body mass index, plasma levels of cholesterol, lipids and oestrogen were unchanged."

Acta Obstet Gynecol Scand Suppl. 1984;127:1-37.

"During treatment with natural progesterone, no changes were recorded in HDL cholesterol or its subfractions."

Quotecis males produce their body's needed progesterone from the testes and in much smaller amounts from the hypothalamus in the brain. We trans-women remove the testes production at the same time we lower or remove the testosterone production from the testes.
Logically following is trans-women operate on a progesterone deficiency overall.

Progesterone levels are VERY low in males, so low as to be insignificant, less than 1 ng/ml.

Quotecis females bodies produce progesterone at female levels beginning with the first menstral cycle. So while they grow up having a few years of pre-puberty with mainly slowly rising estrogen, the remainder of their lives, their bodies produce progesterone to match estrogen in ratio. (This ratio drops off as they get towards middle age and menapause, see increased symptoms associated with decrease in P in the ratio).
Logically following trans-women are at a significant progesterone deficiency when comparing ratios of estrogen.

Ciswomen need progesterone for pregnancy, for their fetus to grow. We cannot become pregnant or give birth at the present time...maybe in the near future.  ;D :D

QuoteBreast development, a number of sources indicate stage5 is only reached after several months of pregnancy level estrogen and progesterone and that in early trans women who were treated with synthetic estrogen's that cone shaped breasts were a common situation until progesterone was added.
Biologically in breast tissues, progesterone works with HGH and insulin with like growth factors 1 and 2 to mature the tissues. Progesterone and estrogen work in synergism in breast growth and development. In other words one increases the effectiveness of the other.

And yet, XY women, insensitive to androgen, often develop large mature full round breasts just on low levels of estrogen and insignificant levels of progesterone.

I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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Jessica

Hi girls 🙋‍♀️ I found this link to a good read about this.  It gives one study's conclusions, along with arguments contrary to it.  It seems a bit biased, but somewhat credible.

http://www.tgforum.com/wordpress/index.php/progesterone-for-breast-development/

Big hugs, Jessica 💁‍♀️

"If you go out looking for friends, you are going to find they are very scarce.  If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere."


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josie76

Kay. I'll get you the breakdown later when I have my laptop.

Cholesterol -> pregnalone -> progesterone -> primary pathway based on enzymatic reactions
Cholesterol -> pregnalone -> secondary pathway possible to some by enzymatic reactions

I'm just stating what it does in the body. It is a nessecary part of life. If your particular HPA axes can produce enough for you then by all means. What I'm saying is the deeper you get into the chemistry and how these compounds interact in the body's systems both directly and as positive and negative alosteric regulators.
04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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judithlynn

Hi;

I have been on a combined Oestrogen and Progesterone regime now for nearly a year (4.5 years on Oestrogen only). I am on a 14 days Oestrogen only regime (taken twice a day) and 14 days on the combined regime. I take Promethium at night time after my evening Oestrogen tablet. Promethium tends to make me very sleepy and it apparently promotes a relaxed sleep. Since commencing it, for the last 14 days I find that I am emotionally very stable and  just feel very feminine and a lot more relaxed. In fact on those weeks I find myself enjoying life immensely as a woman, buying new clothes, meeting girlfriends, going out looking very feminine in a dress or skirt etc, whereas in the first two weeks, I find I just want to lounge about in jeans, and the grungy look, not bothering with make-up. Its almost as though I feel that I am a complete woman on the second 14 day period. But by the end of the month I find the combined regime very cloying (unpleasantly excessive) and know by then I need to be off it back to my Oestrogen only regime.

However during the first 14 days of the month, my Oestrogen levels are generally quite high (I should point out my T levels now are below 0.9). Around about the 12th day of the month I get a sort of PMS. I get very moody, cry a lot at the slightest thing. I even get tummy cramps. My BFF tells me it is probably just physiological (especially when I am staying with her) as there are anecdotal evidence of women synching. The theory behind the syncing of menstrual cycles is that women's pheromones interact when they are in close proximity, causing them to have their period at the same time.

Overall during the second half of the month . my breasts appear to get fuller and more rounded and definitely feel heavier and really fill out my C Cup bras, whereas on my first cycle are less so. My skin is also super-soft on the 2nd part of the month. Also my libido rises on the second cycle and I generally seem to notice men's scent  then. My nails are a lot less brittle and overall stronger. Also  my body hair has become very vellus type and lighter and in some parts especially my décolleté and tummy and pubic region almost completely disappeared (mind you  I have had laser treatment there), but re-growth has been almost non existent.

Since starting on  Progesterone, my buttocks have become quite rounded. I have added about 4" to my buttocks and hips and I have also put on fatty tissue on my thighs and lower abdomen  below the belly button band down to the Pubis.
Overall I really like the results, but I am not sure I could take a full month on the combined regime.
Judith
:-*
Hugs



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LizK

I have been asking about progesterone now with both my Drs the first one said she wouldn't bother in the early stage s of HRT but certainly after 18months it may be worth considering...the second Dr said she didn't think there was much value in it but stressed that before I self medicated she would rather prescribe.


After all the reading I have done it is quite obvious that progesterone does play a part in breast development and the argument seems to be whether the Drs think it "worth it" for the potential risks....what I don't get is that if it is soo bad why is it used with natal females?? It feels a bit like withholding part of a medication because it might increase the risk of a thrombosis...there are many ways to die but I have not read or heard of an epidemic of users becoming ill or having their lives threatened by progesterone. It seems to be "we don't know how it really works" but its fine for a natal female? The argument against seems as week as the argument for it. Maybe its a matter of YMMV and that a "suck and see approach" may well work best.


I intend to try it for 3 months and monitor the results. Hopefully my HRT Dr will prescribe and save me the hassle of ordering it in. Once I have tried it then I will be able to give my opinion on how it worked for me.


Liz
Transition Begun 25 September 2015
HRT since 17 May 2016,
Fulltime from 8 March 2017,
GCS 4 December 2018
Voice Surgery 01 February 2019
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Chloe

Quote from: read link aboveProgesterone is released in the second half of the menstrual cycle both by from body organs and the corpus luteum . . .

Been very lax of late  :police: Liz and Judith seems like 14 days ON then OFF certainly cannot hurt! With cooler weather fast approaching plan on exercising more @ local YMCA gym and fuller breast growth while dieting, losing excess flab elsewhere would certainly be just GREAT! Been ordering/using bio-identical "P" cream from Amazon applied twice daily on lower fore-legs.

Only real concern is "what to wear?"  ;D Forever in male fail mode suppose loose fitting sweats ok . . .Will bookmark and report back results!
"But it's no use now," thought poor Alice, "to pretend be two people!
"Why, there's hardly enough of me left to make one respectable person!"
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josie76

04/26/2018 bi-lateral orchiectomy

A lifetime of depression and repressed emotions is nothing more than existence. I for one want to live now not just exist!

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Daisy Jane

I definitely agree with Sadie that my sex drive rebounded a bit when I started P. It changed a little too. Suddenly I really wanted to have my hair pulled, which had never been a thing for me before.

I'll have to try taking a week off every month to see how I feel. The only time I've taken off P was for my orchi.
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