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Started by gracefulhat, November 12, 2018, 05:44:23 PM

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gracefulhat

Recently I have been watching documentaries on youtube about the Hijra/kannar of India. They may be the world's oldest trans community. Until the last few centuries (colonialism) Hijra were revered and were even in the king's harem. Hijra blessed newborns and were a part of Hindu ancient scriptures dating back over 2500 years ago. 3 years ago India recognized legally a 3rd gender, trans. There's still much discrimination but the nation is going in the right direction it seems.

For me personally, just learning about this gives me great joy. Knowing that we have deep roots throughout world history.
Above all, love
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Jessica

I found this on our wiki......... Hijra

Though I feel it needs revision since I believe India has recognized a third gender as trans.


QuoteDiscrimination
In India the hijra community is deprived of several rights under civil law because Indian law recognizes only two sexes. This means that hijras do not have the right to vote; marry; own a ration card, passport, or driving license; or claim employment and health benefits. They are often denied seats on buses or trains. Many are harassed or humiliated by those who encounter them. There have been reports by sexual minorities in some areas of illegal detentions, harassment, and sexual abuse including rape by police. The People's Union for Civil Liberties considers the problem not to be "sexual gender expression," but the conservative society's ignorance, discrimination, and intolerance towards sexual minorities.

"If you go out looking for friends, you are going to find they are very scarce.  If you go out to be a friend, you'll find them everywhere."


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IAmM

There have been many cultures that saw transgender as being something special, including many Native American nations. Trans women were expected to fill the female role and trans men the male role including in marriage, it was considered a blessing if your tribe had such a person and they were seen as separate than gay. Colonialism altered the world and in many cases how the subjugated cultures viewed trans people. There are still cultures that have not changed. Some Polynesian islands have always and still do accept trans people. Guna Yala peoples on the islands off of Panama are gender neutral in the way they run their society and treat trans people well if not even maybe special. Transgender people are not new but have been around since the beginning of recorded history. When Moses came down from Mt Sinai with the Ten Commandments the they knew of gay and transgender but no commandments against? Huh. In fact of the 613 commandments in Hasidic traditions not one is against transgender people, marrying a transgender person would not be permitted because the marriage could not be consummated but from the beginning of the faith we were known of and no laws existed against. For them it is even more convoluted because they knew of intersex and that it was a natural condition and they also believe the gender of the soul could differ from the gender of the body. Traditions even suggest that Abraham and Sarah's son Isaac was born with a female soul but needing to birth a nation, had a male body. (Side note, as far as I know he only had two children, Jacob and Esau, funny how the mother has to be Jewish in order for the children to be Jewish but the 12 tribes of Israel are based on paternal lineage.) I assume that it stems from their belief in reincarnation, it is part of their traditions though.

We have a notion today that it is not natural, but from the beginning it has been accepted as being natural. Is it religion or male dominated cultures that have suppressed it, I don't know.

;D There are even fish that change their gender!
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gracefulhat

IAmM, nice! It's interesting that you mentioned Isaac. I was just this morning thinking about the fact that he did not marry until he was 37 years old.
For me, just seeing different transgender peoples from around the world gives me some pride about being trans. Yes, it is certainly an odd life, but we are a community with a history.
I love Korean dramas and until recently had a monthly subscription to Dramafever. In particular I like romantic comedies and historical dramas. In many of the historical dramas there are Naeshe 내시 who were eunuchs who lived and served the royal family in the palace. I am sure that many were made eunuchs against their will, such as some dramas portray but I wonder how many were actually transgender. You read of eunuchs in ancient Babylon and Persia in the bible as well who served kings. It would be so fascinating to do research on this and be able to do a documentary or write a book. We need our own history book too yall!
Above all, love
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gracefulhat

@Jessica, the discrimination is absolutely horendous, even worse in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh. If anyone is intested they should watch the documentary on Pakastani trans community and it will break your heart and you will appreciate your own county more. However, it's amazing to me, that even in the midsts of such persecution, we cannot help but be ourselves and transition.
Many trans in these countries, and even here in America cannot get a job and are forced into sex work and begging, sometimes both. I saw where one trans woman in India had, before coming out and being kicked to the streets by her family, graduated from an Ivy League University in America. She was forced to sleep in small cramped room on the floor with nothing to her name. She refused to beg or do sex work but rather took a chance and walked to a television studio. There she proposed that she could be the 1st trans TV host in India, and they went for it! No judgement toward those who do sex work or beg because you have to survive! But I thought that was an amazing story.
Above all, love
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IAmM

Yeah, curious about him huh?  :)

I guess that I have always been particularly curious about trans and homosexual history. Homosexual history because that is what I was told I was at a young age when my family tried to fix me because I said that I was a girl. I have to say that as much as I vilify my family, until I was five I could dress and act however I wanted except at school. I had no permanent home and was moved around in the family so much that everyone saw me as someone else's problem. That all ended when I ended up with my mom's parents. The saddest part of that was that I was no longer allowed to visit my babushka (father's grandmother) who treated me as any other little girl. Whether we were cleaning or cooking or enjoying the labors of our baking she always told stories. My favorite was Vasilisa the Beautiful, her evil stepmother and the cruel witch Baba Yaga.  :) She also told stories of her home and family in Poland and my favorite was of her great grandmother's brother. His oldest daughter refused to be a girl and it caused problems for the family. Even though the family said that he should send her out on her own because she said that she would never marry a man and they were poor, he didn't. He took her to a relative that lived far south of them, maybe even as far as Albania, were a girl could take a vow of chastity and live legally as a man and that relative made her his apprentice. So he lived there his whole life as a brother to the man's children. She would always end it with, See Wnuczka, don't listen to them, it runs in the family. Lol, seems like one every two hundred years almost is not 'running in the family' but I have always appreciated that she said that.

That story always made me wonder about places where I could be myself. I saw myself as a girl but I think everyone else saw me as gay, was there a place like that for me? Has there ever been acceptance? Growing up studying the Bible I saw many places where modern belief would be unaccepting. After countless hours talking with a Rabbi friend, I learned that what was and what is currently is even more divergent than even the Bible I was taught. Over the years I have looked for the causes of the changes. I think that most assume that the Bible has never changed but that is not true at all, see if you can find the Arcangel Uriel in the Bible. Then look for the reason all mention of him was removed. Even in the New Testament there are separations. Paul was the most influential in the beginning of Christianity and he would have gladly ended sex and marriages but probably figured out that with no new people his budding religion would have a very brief lifespan. Let's not forget hell, where did that come from? And why do people believe that when we die we will go to heaven? That is neither before nor after. The only passage in the Bible that suggests that is Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise." Everything else says you die period. Go to She'ol the place for all dead, to dust. Only on the day of the Lords wraith when he passes judgment will he bring the dead to be judged. Sorry, I can go on and on. Things have changed dramatically and not the separation between the Old and New Testaments, Paul changed things, the Catholic Church changed things and Dante Alighieri imprinted the fear of hell into western culture. Obviously my belief in god is no longer inhibited by the belief of religion, but I am not about bashing religious belief here, just asking people to look deeper. I have looked for so long because of the deep shame I felt at being born the way I was. Why was my family so ashamed of me? I am not a bad person, why should I go to hell?

It doesn't end there, what is real and what is accepted are not the same thing, why? I spent months in Saudi Arabia after Desert Storm before I went back to Germany, putting equipment through customs and loading it on boats. It is sooooooo not the thing to be gay there. It is rampant in the younger males though. We went through three groups of local friends that we played ball with, mainly soccer even though none of us had ever played it much before. Every evening we were out playing until after a week or two one of them grabbed my hand, pulled me a little away and kiss me. Everyone freaked out the first time and it came real close to a fight, made my life pretty bad for a while. We found another group of friends and on the second day of playing soccer one of them put his arm around me, kissed me on the neck and asked if I would go with him to a game of local teams on the weekend. Only my best friend talked to me after that for a few days and I never went to another game with the locals. They did though and after a few weeks it happened to another guy. Pushing and shoving happened and when someone suggested that they were gay they got furious. Everyone was young and unmarried, why should they not? They did not see themselves as gay. No one spent time with the locals after that. It made me question though. Yeah a big part of it was my own sexuality, I never enjoyed kissing a girl and was never attracted to them, this kissing guys thing was not bad though. After being back in Germany and getting a horrible crush on my one guy friend it put that question to rest. I never stopped thinking about the way the Saudi guys thought about it. Why does the movie Deliverance have that scene with Ned Beatty, you would be hard pressed to find a group of people more homophobic people than hillbillies, I should know I am one. So I started looking into it. Turns out that it is completely normal for young men, without the availability of women, to have sex with each other. It happens over and over in history, but history gets written over doesn't it? Sailors have been famous, or infamous maybe, for it. One country even tried hiring female prostutes to give to the men in hopes to dissuade the practice. They gave up on that because the men would maybe have sex with the women or more likely share the women but go right back to being with their partner. The Caribbean pirates even formalized their unions in what they called matelotage which was eventually shortened to "mate".

We look at the cliff notes of history written by the winner and think that this is the way transgender people have always been treated. It is not though. We could point fingers but it would not be effective, what people perceive to be real and what is actually real has never been the same, everyone understands that but they continue to believe in what they know, factual or not.

I keep looking to connect the dots though. I am absolutely horrible at living life, but I see the dots in everything and need to connect them.

Eeek! That was very long, many apologies.
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gracefulhat

Quote from: IAmM on November 13, 2018, 12:15:25 AM
Yeah, curious about him huh?  :)

I guess that I have always been particularly curious about trans and homosexual history. Homosexual history because that is what I was told I was at a young age when my family tried to fix me because I said that I was a girl. I have to say that as much as I vilify my family, until I was five I could dress and act however I wanted except at school. I had no permanent home and was moved around in the family so much that everyone saw me as someone else's problem. That all ended when I ended up with my mom's parents. The saddest part of that was that I was no longer allowed to visit my babushka (father's grandmother) who treated me as any other little girl. Whether we were cleaning or cooking or enjoying the labors of our baking she always told stories. My favorite was Vasilisa the Beautiful, her evil stepmother and the cruel witch Baba Yaga.  :) She also told stories of her home and family in Poland and my favorite was of her great grandmother's brother. His oldest daughter refused to be a girl and it caused problems for the family. Even though the family said that he should send her out on her own because she said that she would never marry a man and they were poor, he didn't. He took her to a relative that lived far south of them, maybe even as far as Albania, were a girl could take a vow of chastity and live legally as a man and that relative made her his apprentice. So he lived there his whole life as a brother to the man's children. She would always end it with, See Wnuczka, don't listen to them, it runs in the family. Lol, seems like one every two hundred years almost is not 'running in the family' but I have always appreciated that she said that.


I want to thoroughly read through this, but I don't have time yet. I read the first one third. I have been to Poland ( Warsaw, Krakow, Aushweizt, the countryside...) and what a beautiful country. I love the Polish people. They are a strong people who have a history of being taken advantage of by those around them (Germany, Russia), but they are so loving and kind. I have never been to Paris, but I dare say that Krakow would rival its beauty. I am so sorry that you had such a difficult childhood, but I love your Babushka ><. It's great that you at least experienced for a short time what it feels like to be loved and accepted. That's also fascinating about the daughter and Albania. I promise to read the rest later and respond. What a fun thread!
Above all, love
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gracefulhat

In response to your 2nd paragraph:

I think I can relate to you in this. I struggled for 15 years with self condemnation because of the idea that LGBTQ will go to hell. I was a hyper religious person from the age of 17 to 30 (I am 36 now) and this is what prevented me from even approaching transitioning, even going to bible college for 3 years. Thank God I am past that stage! How miserable I was constantly worrying about my every word, every thought, and then judging myself when I failed, which was everyday. I then learned there's a world of difference between religion and spiritually, between law and grace. I do have faith, but my faith isn't impacted by others around me. It's between me and the higher power.
Sure, my family and most people around me, including my wife, think I am going to hell, but thankfully that decision isn't up to them.
Above all, love
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gracefulhat

Aww, love the 3rd paragraph and ending! That's pretty romantic, the Saudi story. It is interesting looking @ other cultures. My spouse is from Korea and she's told me that until you're married, persons of the same sex are often very affectionate towards eachother, kinda like siblings. I don't think it's a sexual thing though. Still interesting. I do feel like western culture over sexualizes a lot of things, which is one reason I love watching kdramas because you're not forced to watch an awkward love scene. Instead they both will go to sleep and your left imagining, which is more fun in my opinion.
Great post ><
Above all, love
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IAmM

You are being very kind but thank you.

She was pretty amazing. I wish I would have spoken Polish better, she didn't speak English very well. She would tell me the meaning of words but I guess that her sense of humor extended even there. The last Christmas card we got from her my brother explained wnuczka did not mean mouse without a tail like she always told me it did.

I struggled with religion for a very long time. I thought that I was evil, it didn't help that when my family was trying to fix me when I was 13 the movie Sleepaway Camp came out. Ugh! I wanted to be a girl but I didn't want to be evil and certainly didn't want to be like that movie. Getting to where I am now, completely transitioned and living like any other girl, I had to work my way through a lot of hang ups they gave me back then, the first was religion. In the end I am a better person for it I guess, even though my family also believes that I am going to hell.  :D  That's okay, they don't talk to me anyway.

Another step was accepting my sexual preference. I knew the two were not tied together because I always thought that I was a girl. It was much harder to accept that I liked men though. No one understood where I lived when I lived there anything about transgender. The shrinks and doctors told me over and over that it was not possible, that I would never be a girl, that was the extent of their knowledge. Everyone knew about gay though and they were positive I was. Really, I did too I guess even if I never desired sex at the time. Between being used by my brothers friends as the designated girl to experiment on when they were going through puberty, living with an uncle that molested me for a year, and the men in the mental hospital when I was thirteen, why would that many males do that if I wasn't gay. There is more in there but not something that I am prepared to talk about. Plus the one guy in the hospital I did what he wanted willingly though I had no desire for him or anyone. Sounds horrible but I will never feel bad for that, no one would talk to me there, my family never came to visit and the doctors were not at all nice, so when a nineteen year old orderly was nice to me and no one else in the world was, and he asked where everyone else just took, yes I did what he wanted. I thought it doomed me to be gay though. Gay was the worst thing you could be where I grew up. I was in my thirties when I finally accepted that gay was okay. Though it took a bit longer to realize that I could be a girl and I wasn't gay after all.  :)  Life is strange.

I had to work through the religion problem, the liking men problem and still struggled with being male when I didn't feel male in the least. When I found out transition was possible almost 5 years ago nothing was going to keep me from it. I know it is normal to have doubts but I never have. Now that I am done with all of that but for grs I can't stop thinking about my childhood that I thought was was buried forever, it is the next thing I will have to work through. I hope that is it though, I need a break from working through all this stuff. I should not even bother worrying about that day, my childhood is a mess that I may never figure out.

Everyone gets to where they are from somewhere, the surprise is where we end up. I like how you describe Korean culture, time for me to learn more and start another journey.  :)
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