For a mtf woman, when is transitioning “over”? Are we always transgender?

[Linde]

  What do you tell those with Kleinfelter's - they're not really male (or female of they're transgender or transsexual) due to being XXY?  Not every person with intersex chromosomal variations wants be considered a Third Sex.   

I am one of them, I do not want to be a they/theirs, I want to be a she/hers.  I am sick and tires not to have a "gender home" and just float around in between genders!

[warlockmaker]

"It certainly is not a third gender or third type of human being, in my opinion. Transition begins when you have decided for it to begin and it ends when you have no more need for the term I would say" Quote from Kylo

If we are certainly not the 3rd gender then we are certainly neither male or female, are we "wannabe" or Transition ends when you accept who you are, no more fantacies, no more rationalization but taking pride in who we are and finally finding peace with ourselves. This realization allows us to be a fully functioning contributing member of society and hopefully achieving great goals because we are blessed with the knowledge of living  2 lives in a lifetime and have so much to give back to society. Embrace who you are with pride, a transgender person.

[KimOct]

This realization allows us to be a fully functioning contributing member of society and hopefully achieving great goals because we are blessed with the knowledge of living  2 lives in a lifetime and have so much to give back to society. Embrace who you are with pride, a transgender person.

Coming out as transgender has unequivocally made me a better person - not because we are better people - rather it has taught me so much about empathy and understanding my fellow beings with more compassion.

I thought I was a kind and understanding person before.  Coming out and living as openly transgender has 'woke' me so much more to many other people in the world. 

This is not something I would have said for most of my life but I can say it now.  I AM PROUD TO BE TRANSGENDER.
My transition will always be complete and yet never complete.  (figure that one out  )

[Michelle_P]

Some of us reside in places where the culture only accepts gender identities of Male or Female, and conflates these identities with presentation and anatomy.  The gender binary is enforced by law and various bureaucratic functions, in ways that interact with such personal activities as using a restroom or passing a security checkpoint.  This makes life much more difficult, to the point of being personally dangerous, to claim any other identity.

There is a cultural alienation process often referred to as 'Othering', casting the Other in the role of an alien, an interloper to be shunned.  Claiming a gender identity other than Male or Female, such as "Transgender Female", will result in Othering.  Being seen as a noncompliant gender identity will result in Othering.

Persons seen as Other may be declared to exist in violation of religious or personal beliefs, and may freely be discriminated against in most places in this country.  Such discrimination includes but is not limited to loss of employment, loss of shelter, loss of access to basic emergency services (yes, an ambulance, doctors, and emergency rools have all declined to care for trans persons on this basis).

I reject the attempts here to Other me. 

I am a woman, 65 years old, and a lesbian with a 30% chance of queer.  I arrived at this state through my history of being a transgender person.  Transgender describes how I got here, not my gender identity.

I, and only I determine my identity.  I and only I have the experience of living in this body, and only I can define, describe, and designate my identity.

I reject any attempt by any other person to force an identity upon me, and will resist this to my last breath.

I have survived one attempt to force me to accept another gender identity, through so-called 'conversion therapy', and will resist any attempt to coerce, convince, or cajole me into accepting any identity other than MINE.

[Allison S]

As long as I'm taking estrogen and my testosterone is surpressed than I'm both transitioning and transgender. That's my truth biologically and medically. But what I make out of it is up to me

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

[Linde]

As long as I'm taking estrogen and my testosterone is surpressed than I'm both transitioning and transgender. That's my truth biologically and medically. But what I make out of it is up to me

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Yes, it is up to you.  But you also live in and with society, and society may see it different, and may refuse you service, or access to certain areas, or other things that are out of your influence.

I am lucky that i am financially independent, and don't have to care about a workplace or shelter.  But I still need medical services, not only for transitioning but also for my trans independent medical conditions or ailments.  I still need certain governmental services.  If an administration would say, we refuse to provide any of the services to persons who are not following the standard binary gender conventions,  I am pretty bad off, it is out of my control!

[Michelle_P]

... But I still need medical services, not only for transitioning but also for my trans independent medical conditions or ailments.  I still need certain governmental services.  If an administration would say, we refuse to provide any of the services to persons who are not following the standard binary gender conventions,  I am pretty bad off, it is out of my control!

This is why why have our action and legal support organizations:

National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE)  (advocacy)
Transgender Law Center (TLC)  (legal services and advocacy)
Gender Proud  (advocacy)
Sylvia Rivera Law Project (SRLP)  (legal services)
Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund (TLDEF)  (legal services)
Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition (MTPC)  (advocacy)
Trans People of Color Coalition (TPOCC)  (advocacy)
Trans Women of Color Collective (TWOCC)  (advocacy)
Black Trans Advocacy  (advocacy)
Trans Latina Coalition  (advocacy)
Gender Spectrum  (support for families, trans youth, and educators)
Gender Diversity (support for families, trans youth, and educators)
Trans Youth Equality Federation  (support for families and trans youth)
Trans Youth Family Allies (TYFA)  (support for families and trans youth)
TransTech Social Enterprises  (economic empowerment)
SPART*A  (advocacy for trans military service members)
Transgender American Veterans Association  (advocacy for trans veterans)
TransAthlete.com  (info about trans athletes)
TransLife Center at Chicago House  (support services)

More at:  Transgender Resources | GLAAD

[Linde]

@ Michelle_P
i know, but it seems as if the current administration and several staates don't give a hoot about all that.  They do what they want.
I feel really bad for the poor transgender kids in school in some of the staates that require them to go to bathrooms that fit their birth certificate!
As an adult, specifically as an adult with two nationalities, I can find a way to circumference a lot of the regulations (If required, I can go back to Europe), but those poor kids are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have no place to go!   Instead of helping them in all ways possible, they are even more stigmatized now!  I bet we will see an increased suicide rate in the not so distant future!

[Michelle_P]

@ Michelle_P
i know, but it seems as if the current administration and several staates don't give a hoot about all that.  They do what they want.
I feel really bad for the poor transgender kids in school in some of the staates that require them to go to bathrooms that fit their birth certificate!
As an adult, specifically as an adult with two nationalities, I can find a way to circumference a lot of the regulations (If required, I can go back to Europe), but those poor kids are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They have no place to go!   Instead of helping them in all ways possible, they are even more stigmatized now!  I bet we will see an increased suicide rate in the not so distant future!

Things are actually getting better overall within the United States.  A few years ago, the various abusive practices now being reported on would be simply accepted as normal, and ignored.

We are hearing more from the 'put them back in the closet' side only because they feel empowered to speak their minds without regard to common civility right now.  That is, the social atmosphere is such that some people feel entitled to make verbal and physical threats anonymously, and this in turn empowers a smaller number of people to mistakenly assume that they can act out with impunity. 

Some actions are violent, and may be legally prosecuted with varying results.  Some actions are legislative, and may proceed with varying results.  It turns out that many people find that legislative or physical attacks on marginalized populations are objectionable, and apply pressure to try and correct these abuses.

One function of the transgender legal and advocacy projects is to identify these abuses, publicize them, and direct legal and legislative efforts to neutralize them.  I have been engaged in a number of such actions, as well as educational work to raise awareness and correct some of the incorrect information about transgender people out in the world.

I think that we are always transgender, from birth to death, although the term is a bit 'off'. I'm not changing my gender identity, just my presentation, to bring it into line with my gender identity.  In my particular case, this change includes altering my anatomical presentation a bit, such that my anatomy now resembles that of many natal women my age, along with correcting my endocrine systems chemistry and my voice.

Transgender simply identifies the path I have taken through life to arrive at this presentation.  It has taken me decades to recognize that many of my difficulties have been due to my trying to force my presentation and role to match genitalia rather than my identity, and desperately trying to suppress or re-forge my identity to match genitalia.  That doesn't work for me, and my correct path turns out to be accepting my identity and allowing my presentation and role to match my identity.  This is the process of transition.

Explaining the meaning of being transgender, and what this transition thing is all about has been a focus of my educational efforts.  That's part of why I've been posting here!

[Linde]

@ Michelle_P
And this is very important o do what you do!  I used to be a political activist all my adult life, and wonder whether there is something I could get involved with?

[EllenJ2003]

I am one of them, I do not want to be a they/theirs, I want to be a she/hers.  I am sick and tired not to have a "gender home" and just float around in between genders!

I agree.  I realize that it was probably done for identity politics reasons (and I've never cared for identity politics [I've been exposed to identity politics, since the 1980s, when I attended one of the most left wing universities in the world {the University of Wisconsin} for Engineering Degree #1]), but it still baffles me why people would appropriate a plural pronoun to describe a (single) person.

Just a digression by me - I'm a bit of an old timer compared to many on these forums - I finished up (and by finishing up for me, I mean SRS) 15 years ago.  Things were frankly, quite a bit different back then.  Also personally, I got sick of the (to use a Star Trek reference) the "we are the Borg, we will assimilate you" attitude that was starting to appear in what passed for a community back then (and seems to still exist IMO).  In other words - walk in lock step with the party line, or else!  Hence the reason why I drifted away from the whole TG/TS thing by 2006 (this is the first TG/TS forum I've belonged to since then).  Sorry, I did the "out and proud" thing until late 2001.  There was fallout from it in the form of being treated as an "other" kind of person  (I didn't like it).  Also, there was no advocacy available when I almost lost a job I hated (but desperately needed, so I'd have enough money for my SRS), due to bathroom issues in the summer of 2003. 

I've stated the above to explain why I have the view I do on this issue.  In short, despite what some may believe, one size/viewpoint does not fit all.

Ellen

[Linde]

I agree.  I realize that it was probably done for identity politics reasons (and I've never cared for identity politics [I've been exposed to identity politics, since the 1980s, when I attended one of the most left wing universities in the world {the University of Wisconsin} for Engineering Degree #1]),

We might have seen each other there.  I was there for a lot of extension classes during that time.
But it is almost right wing compared with most universities in Germany!  My wife taught at the UoW, and we taught it was Ok progressive, but nothing to write home about (compared with our experience from Europe)

but it still baffles me why people would appropriate a plural pronoun to describe a (single) person.

I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

[GordonG]

  I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

Count me as another one who doesn't get it.

[GingerVicki]

Transitioning ends for most people at a certain point. Taking meds for the rest of our lives is why we are transgender. Being transgender is for life, however, transitioning does come to an end if someone allows it. Meaning that basically all of the body modifications are done. The FFS, adam's apple shave, body hair removal, non-op, orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, and etc. I did not include the FtM items on the list but those also are included.

[EllenJ2003]

We might have seen each other there.  I was there for a lot of extension classes during that time.
But it is almost right wing compared with most universities in Germany!  My wife taught at the UoW, and we taught it was Ok progressive, but nothing to write home about (compared with our experience from Europe)
  I don't get it either.  I am one of those gender fluid persons (because I am intersex) who should be a they or whatever plural fits, but each time somebody says  that, I look around to see who else is there!  I may have several genders siting inside my body, but I am still a single person!  I prefer simply to be a she, because that is the gender I most identify with!

I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)    It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

[Linde]

I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)    It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

[TonyaW]

Class of 86, go Badgers.

I'm an alum (Class of '87).  When I was at the Univ. of WI, there still was an echo of that 60s protest vibe at the place.  The main reason why the roofs of the buildings are locked is due to the fact the several students took a swan dive off of 20 stories high Van Hise Hall to protest the Vietnam War.  I spent a year living on Mifflin St. (in an apartment that was frankly a dump - my dad told me a few years after I graduated, that my mom cried all the way home, during the 2 plous hour drive, after seeing my apartment), which was the epicenter of the Vietnam War protest riots.  There were a lot of 60s burnouts living in Madison, when I was at the university.  I lived kitty corner from the Mifflin St. Co-op, which sold dope brownies during their annual Mifflin St. festival.

Madison, WI itself is a very politically driven town (since it is the state capitol), and probably the most liberal town in the state - especially with regards to sexuality.  At the time was attending the University of Wisconsin, it was figured that as much as 20% of Madison's population of 175,000 people was gay (I lived 3 blocks from a the Hotel Washington - it was owned by a gay couple, and along with having a vintage clothing store, and two neighborhood bars, it also had 2 gay bars [one of which, would not allow women inside of it]).  Unfortunately, transition resources were non-existent at the university when I was there (believe me, I spent a serious amount of time looking into to it - I wanted to transition in college)    It's probably due to the fact that at the time being TS was was not PC at that place (by transitioning, you were knuckling under to society's preconceived notions of what you needed to be, so you could act in certain ways - hey "why not be an effeminate male instead?" [Gloria Steinem actually made that comment about transsexuals, in a book I read in the late 80s - not cool!!!]).  The University of Wisconsin like many left leaning schools, is very PC driven.  I despise PC.

Spent some time in Memorial Library looking for books on transsexuals as it was known then.  That's as far as I got transition wise back then.  Wasn't something I really thought I'd ever be able to do at the time.

I think one of my roommates from my 3rd year claimed his brother owned the bar in Hotel Washington. Don't recall ever meeting this brother, even at this roommates wedding. This would have been in 82-83.

Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

Still living in Wisconsin, (Fox Cities area now) and am finding enough resources.  There was a doctor in Neenah that used to do GCS, Jennifer Boylan his most notable. There's a gender clinic at UW hospital now also that says there is a surgeon there.  Nothing else really on their website about it and I've never seen anyone here mention it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

[Linde]

Still living in Wisconsin, (Fox Cities area now) and am finding enough resources.  There was a doctor in Neenah that used to do GCS, Jennifer Boylan his most notable. There's a gender clinic at UW hospital now also that says there is a surgeon there.  Nothing else really on their website about it and I've never seen anyone here mention it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I used to live in St. Croix Falls and later in Hudson.  I worked in the Twin Cities.  We had some projects together with the medical school in Madison. specifically with Professor Maki, who happened to be a first cousin of my brother in law, as I found out later.
Now that I am in Florida for my second winter, I have to say I don't miss the cold at all.  When it is to hot here in the summer, I hop in my motorhome and drive up into God's Country again an spend a few months up there!

[Devlyn]

A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

[EllenJ2003]

Yes, Madison was, and is definitely the most liberal city in Wisconsin.  I lived in Wisconsin starting 1978 until I moved to Florida last year.  My wife taught at the Moo-U, the River Falls Campus of the UoW.  She taught in teacher education, definitely the most liberal department of the U.  I don't think that you would find much of help for transgender people in Wisconsin, it is just way to conservative.  If one wants to see some action in any LGBTIQ things, one would have to go to the Twin Cities.  The UoM there has a full transgender department now.

The university in Madison is just reluctantly moving in providing students and employees health coverage for trans issues.  The lost a court case over this.

I am contemplating having my possible SRS done at the UoM.  My son still lives in a Twin Cities suburb, and i could stay with him for a while, or have it done at the Mayo in Rochester, MN. (I am on their patient roster for over 30 years now).

Actually I did find help.  I found out (via a copy of Tapestry magazine) about a gender program in the Milwaukee area.  I got in touch with it in the late 90s, and did my entire transition here in Wisconsin (I am a native of the state).  Until early 2003 (when he retired), one of the better known SRS surgeons back in the day (Eugene Schrang) did his surgeries in Theda Clark regional medical center in Neenah, which is 50 miles west of my hometown of Manitowoc (I no longer live in Manitowoc, I live in the Milwaukee area nowadays).  Schrang, did the SRS of one of my friends. 

In short, there are some transition resources in Wisconsin - just not as many as in say Chicago, on the east coast, or the west coast.  They also aren't as visible as they are on some areas.

Ellen