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Gender connected associations that people make

Started by ChrissyRyan, December 30, 2018, 06:19:56 AM

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ChrissyRyan

Sometimes I wonder about things such as, "Why are flowers (especially so on clothing) associated with girls and not often with boys?"

There seems to be a lot a gender connected associations that people make, aren't there?

I wonder what the origins of them are.

What are some other things, such as dolls or long hair or dresses; or behaviors, such as hair twirling or "playing house", that are often associated with girls it seems far more often than with boys, and why do you think that is the case?

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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Lynne

Some of these things have their roots far in the past and some are more recent trends but there are so many gender connected associations that going after the origins of all of them requires quite extensive research.

These associations can be very different in different cultures and also they can change quite quickly with times. Just think about the pink color for example which is now a girlie color in our culture and that is a quite recent change in history, before that it was a color for boys.

One of my favourite pictures which shows how quickly times and trends change is taken of Franklin D. Roosevelt as a kid:


This outfit and look was completely normal for a boy at the time..
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KathyLauren

I liked floral patterns and bright colours way back, long before I suspected that I was female.  In hindsight, it is one of the clues that helped me make sense of it all.

Even though gender roles and presentations are constructs of society, I don't think they exist in a vacuum.  I think that they are based on real, innate gender preferences, based on my childhood experiences.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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Kylo

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on December 30, 2018, 06:19:56 AM
Sometimes I wonder about things such as, "Why are flowers (especially so on clothing) associated with girls and not often with boys?"

You'll find flowers on men's kimono and yukata in Japan, and on the tsuba of katana and in the mon emblems of Japanese clans.

On the whole I'd say there is an association between women and flowers because women are considered more delicate and beautiful, they also seem to like flowers more than men, and wearing ornate clothes.

Quotedolls

Studies show female mammals including humans have a greater interest in dolls than male mammals. Makes sense if they are the primary carers for small children. Wouldn't bode well if they didn't like caring for things that look like babies. (Origin: biology)

Quotedresses

Traditionally speaking for modesty, and modesty was generally there to protect women and men from each other and the potential for jealousy, lust and hostility (origin: biology). Men were the ones doing most of the dangerous and extreme manual labour, where wearing robes or dresses would be a liability. Women could kill two birds with one stone by wearing long dresses - observing modesty and making the clothes elaborate and more ornate which makes an impression and enhances a person's attractiveness to others.   

Quotelong hair

In Europe, and most of the world, nobility of both sexes used to have long hair, and the European peasants or slaves used to have short hair. Long hair was a sign of good health and a lifestyle that permitted time to look after it (i.e. a status symbol... and the origin of status symbols and why we have them? biology). Most men again were doing a lot of harsh manual labour and short hair was efficient for it. Women and men typically try to look different from each other to reduce confusion and enhance attractiveness as opposites, and so women having the option to have longer hair took the opportunity and it became associated specifically with the feminine. In many other cultures though men still had long hair, i.e. Native American, Japanese, etc.

Quote"playing house"

Biology. Women tend to rule the house or the nest in terms of how things are and what gets done in them because the sexes were forced by nature to take on different jobs for efficiency. Women tended to stay home, men went out and worked. Playing house is an extension of that historical role. I've never met a married couple in which the women did not dictate how the house looked inside or how it was generally run. (Origin: biology)

Quotehair twirling

If you have long hair it's there to play with. Girls often do. Otherwise it can be a social cue or a sign of certain mental states.

Most behaviors have a primitive biological origin behind them. Culture is downstream from the biological hardware.

Biology -----dictates------> culture ---------dictates---------> ideology
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: Kylo on December 30, 2018, 10:36:46 AM
You'll find flowers on men's kimono and yukata in Japan, and on the tsuba of katana and in the mon emblems of Japanese clans.

On the whole I'd say there is an association between women and flowers because women are considered more delicate and beautiful, they also seem to like flowers more than men, and wearing ornate clothes.

Studies show female mammals including humans have a greater interest in dolls than male mammals. Makes sense if they are the primary carers for small children. Wouldn't bode well if they didn't like caring for things that look like babies. (Origin: biology)

Traditionally speaking for modesty, and modesty was generally there to protect women and men from each other and the potential for jealousy, lust and hostility (origin: biology). Men were the ones doing most of the dangerous and extreme manual labour, where wearing robes or dresses would be a liability. Women could kill two birds with one stone by wearing long dresses - observing modesty and making the clothes elaborate and more ornate which makes an impression and enhances a person's attractiveness to others.   

In Europe, and most of the world, nobility of both sexes used to have long hair, and the European peasants or slaves used to have short hair. Long hair was a sign of good health and a lifestyle that permitted time to look after it (i.e. a status symbol... and the origin of status symbols and why we have them? biology). Most men again were doing a lot of harsh manual labour and short hair was efficient for it. Women and men typically try to look different from each other to reduce confusion and enhance attractiveness as opposites, and so women having the option to have longer hair took the opportunity and it became associated specifically with the feminine. In many other cultures though men still had long hair, i.e. Native American, Japanese, etc.

Biology. Women tend to rule the house or the nest in terms of how things are and what gets done in them because the sexes were forced by nature to take on different jobs for efficiency. Women tended to stay home, men went out and worked. Playing house is an extension of that historical role. I've never met a married couple in which the women did not dictate how the house looked inside or how it was generally run. (Origin: biology)

If you have long hair it's there to play with. Girls often do. Otherwise it can be a social cue or a sign of certain mental states.

Most behaviors have a primitive biological origin behind them. Culture is downstream from the biological hardware.

Biology -----dictates------> culture ---------dictates---------> ideology.


Kylo,

Thank you for your informative reply.   :)

Chrissy



Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: Lynne on December 30, 2018, 09:13:06 AM
Some of these things have their roots far in the past and some are more recent trends but there are so many gender connected associations that going after the origins of all of them requires quite extensive research.

These associations can be very different in different cultures and also they can change quite quickly with times. Just think about the pink color for example which is now a girlie color in our culture and that is a quite recent change in history, before that it was a color for boys.

One of my favourite pictures which shows how quickly times and trends change is taken of Franklin D. Roosevelt as a kid:


This outfit and look was completely normal for a boy at the time..


Lynne,


This was very interesting about young Franklin Roosevelt! 

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: KathyLauren on December 30, 2018, 09:45:58 AM
I liked floral patterns and bright colours way back, long before I suspected that I was female.  In hindsight, it is one of the clues that helped me make sense of it all.

Even though gender roles and presentations are constructs of society, I don't think they exist in a vacuum.  I think that they are based on real, innate gender preferences, based on my childhood experiences.


Kathy,

I do enjoy floral patterns and bright colors too.   :)

Your green coat is fabulous!

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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Ryuichi13

I might not enjoy floral patterns much, but I do enjoy bright colors.  I suppose that's unusual for a man nowadays.  I don't care.  I'll keep wearing my brilliant blue, red and purple graphic t-shirts, and damn the thoughts of Society!

I also love the Japanese aesthetic of flowers on men's kimono.  My blue yukata has coins on it, but I'd love to find an nice men's kimono with actual Japanese-patterned flowers on it.  I'd definitely wear one if I find one I can afford!  :laugh:

And I wear my dreadlocks in a samurai style, since they're halfway down my back.  8)

Ryuichi


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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on December 30, 2018, 03:12:56 PM
I might not enjoy floral patterns much, but I do enjoy bright colors.  I suppose that's unusual for a man nowadays.  I don't care.  I'll keep wearing my brilliant blue, red and purple graphic t-shirts, and damn the thoughts of Society!

I also love the Japanese aesthetic of flowers on men's kimono.  My blue yukata has coins on it, but I'd love to find an nice men's kimono with actual Japanese-patterned flowers on it.  I'd definitely wear one if I find one I can afford!  :laugh:

Ryuichi


I have seen some bright colored basketball type shoes, maybe green or yellow.
They are not my style but they are very bright.

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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Kylo

The ability of men and women to enjoy flowers in Japan is definitely something to do with the artistic nature of the culture. Elegance, refinement and delicacy are all themes you'll find in Japanese artwork (as well as efficiency and minimalism) and flowers are considered to have a lot of these traits. Most human cultures love flowers. Use petals and flowers to beautify things. The Japanese though, spent a long time in cultural isolation developing their arts and crafts and appreciation of art to a fine point. Go pretty much anywhere in Japan even today and you can sense a tangible "reverence" for beauty and good skilful art everywhere you look. 

The aversion guys have elsewhere often for liking "anything floral" is probably due to a desire to separate the sexes in terms of behavior... there was a distinct advantage for people who were "identifiable" as male or female most of the time, through the history of our species. If you were not identifiable - i.e. visually androgynous - this meant you were an unknown quantity and unknown quantities posed potential risks to primitive people. This is more than likely why women don't like being confused for men and vice versa in most situations. Because of the behavioral and role divide (biological) between men and women, it was dangerous to be confused with a man if you were a woman (more likely to get hurt for example), and it would probably not help you climb the ladder in the world of men to be confused for a woman. Neither sex benefited from acting like the other when subject to the general rules of survival. This continues from our most distant ancestry right up till the present day. If you asked a cis female friend if she'd like to be taken for mannish, or a male friend if he'd like to be mistaken for a woman the answer would probably be a vehement no. They might not be able to explain precisely why, but something buried in the brain and our behavior tells most people it's "wrong". For any strong negative impulse in a person, you can assume that behind it probably had something to do with our ancestors' most primal needs for survival. Not least in the case of people, for looking/acting like one sex or the other in order to reproduce.

Trans people are outliers in this regard, and yet we still have similar strengths of feeling and negativity towards feeling "wrong", either by going against mainstream culture, or going against our own internal feelings. Going against our "tribe" or culture was a dangerous thing, and still is sometimes. Hence, most people tend to keep strictly to gender expectations in public. Flowers became something it's accepted for women to like in most of the world, but not for men because men were policed by both men and women to be raised to shun feminine characteristics and adopt masculine ones. This was done for survival purposes, because back in the day men needed to be robust and not particularly sensitive in order to defend others. Society tended to disallow men feminine activities in order to keep them in this mode. There was danger in adopting feminine behaviors as a male, and you would run the risk of being policed for it.

There will be some who will want to call that "patriarchy" or some other nonsense but it's simply a biological fact that men are the ones our species can most efficiently put in harm's way to defend the physically weaker members of it, women and children. To put women and children in harms way instead of men, or put them in harms way along with the men is illogical. So men were raised to be tougher and to act differently from women and children. They were not encouraged to engage in feminine behaviors like enjoying flowers. Even now you'll find most womens' "ideal man" is not a guy who enjoys "behaving like a woman", even if it's a horribly stereotypical attitude to take.

I have no particular feelings about this, whether it's good or bad, this is simply the way nature has shaped and moulded our species. The absolute origin of all of this behavior and role modification is that nature saw fit to divide roles for reproduction. Females put far more investment into young, and males less. As a result the males began to take on the role of being defenders and fighters, because they were free to and it made sense... and females took on the role of being the core of a tribe raising the offspring. You can see it in most of our closest animal relatives like monkeys and of course any mammal is subject to this division of reproductive labour. Almost all male vertebrates are free from immediate reproductive burdens and instead have thrust on them the dangerous burden of fighting to get a mate and/or defending those mates. Almost all female vertebrates had to modify their strategies for dealing with their particular burden as well, which was also dangerous.

Almost all of our behaviors and physiological difference have come about from this most basic division of labour. Women knew strong men could provide for and defend them better so they selected stronger rather than weaker and smaller men as mates. After millions of years, the modern human man and woman look the way they do because of this. And women still tend to prefer masculine men, and men tend to prefer feminine women. Not all of course but the statistics in studies bear it out. 

Thankfully most modern culture allows people a bit more breathing room these days. Unless it's islam which still doesn't allow men to wear decorative jewellery, or for the sexes to overtly behave like one another, etc. and there are a few others. But given all the modern accomplishments we have, men and women are still very different and because of that biological fact that women carry children and men do not, probably always will be. For there to be a major shift we'd have to evolve beyond needing women to carry children to term, perhaps by use of machines, and genetic experimentation. Which I'm not particularly comfortable with since we don't really have a clue about what we'd be doing to ourselves. (But if anyone's going to do this it's China. They're already genetically engineering giant animals etc. so who knows). 
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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ChrissyRyan

Kylo,


Thank you for your informative post.   :)

Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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ChrissyRyan

One gender connection that many people make is that females are not much interested in sports, including watching sports.

I like to watch some sports from time to time.

Chrissy

Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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Linde

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on January 02, 2019, 06:19:34 PM
One gender connection that many people make is that females are not much interested in sports, including watching sports.

I like to watch some sports from time to time.

Chrissy
Well, here it comes, I must be super female.  My male clothing contains several of very flowery and colorful Hawaiian type shirts!
And I hate to watch any type of sports (and never participated in any organized sport, I always hated it)
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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pamelatransuk

Hello again Chrissy

Yes people often make false assumptions based on the old stereotypes eg:

Females not interested in sports
Females not interested in politics
Females not good at mental arithmetic

These is purely preconceived ideas based on no evidence.

For me it is:

Sports:                         No
Politics:                        Yes
Mental Arithmetic:         Yes   

We are who we are and our interests (which probably change over time anyway) are usually not gender specific.

Hugs to all

Pamela


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luckygirl

Interesting trivia is that pink was originally associted with males and blue was associated with girls until I believe Hallmark changed it all in the beginning of the 20th century. With rare exception, this stuff is all just social constructs.
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Linde

Quote from: pamelatransuk on January 03, 2019, 06:09:52 AM
Hello again Chrissy

Yes people often make false assumptions based on the old stereotypes eg:

Females not interested in sports  Correct! I am not interested in sports!
Females not interested in politics   Wrong!  Both my wife and I were political activists
Females not good at mental arithmetic  Should actually read engineers, because we used the slide rule all the time for almost any calculation!

These is purely preconceived ideas based on no evidence.

For me it is:

Sports:                         No
Politics:                        Yes
Mental Arithmetic:         Yes   

We are who we are and our interests (which probably change over time anyway) are usually not gender specific.

Hugs to all

Pamela
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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