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Internalized homophobia

Started by AnamethatstartswithE, January 06, 2019, 09:22:14 PM

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randim

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
For me it's also interesting in that I seem to be attracted to femme women, and masculine guys. I'm not sure what that's all about. Also while personality is very important to me for both men and women, ersonalitu seems to matter more for having me be attracted to a guy initially, while it's more important for establishing a connection with a girl.

It's funny, I seem to be very much a "catcher" not a "pitcher" if you understand my metaphor. That used to make me super duper uncomfortable when I was trying to date as a guy. When I was still a guy and would go to parties I would try to make myself as attractive as possible while hoping that girls would just come and talk to me. Again when I look back at my life, all of this stuff is super obvious.

I have found attraction to men and women involve very different areas of the heart, or brain, or both.  When I am attracted to a woman, I find myself desiring her, and being very much externally focused.  When I have been attracted to men, I find myself very much desiring to be be desired -- somewhat internally focused, athough it is important what  external person desires me.  I think that speaks to pitcher vs catcher somewhat.
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Linde

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 09, 2019, 09:10:39 PM
Come on Linde, is this a Freudian slip or what?
No, stupid spell checker/autocorrect (who knows, it might have been done by a programmer who has an Oedipus Complex?)
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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BritneyX

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 09:24:36 PM
No, stupid spell checker/autocorrect (who knows, it might have been done by a programmer who has an Oedipus Complex?)
I have Faith that a good and joyful soul like you will find your soul mate. Till then, you are never lonely with your Family here.
"Out of all the attributes of humanity, the only one that matters most, is the one that cannot fail you.  That is Honesty. Without it, nothing else about your person will hold up." :angel:
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AnamethatstartswithE

Quote from: randim on January 09, 2019, 09:10:53 PM
I have found attraction to men and women involve very different areas of the heart, or brain, or both.  When I am attracted to a woman, I find myself desiring her, and being very much externally focused.  When I have been attracted to men, I find myself very much desiring to be be desired -- somewhat internally focused, athough it is important what  external person desires me.  I think that speaks to pitcher vs catcher somewhat.

Interesting, I think this also adds fuel to the bi vs. pan debate. Are they different words for the same thing? If I'm attracted to masculine men and feminine women does that preclude pan? Though to my knowledge I've never met a non-binary or agender person so I can't definitively say that I don't find them attractive, i just don't know.

And finally, I know this is shallow, but the bi flag is so much cooler than the pan flag.
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Tessa James

Thank you for this thread and shared thoughts.  I love all kinds of people and have always known myself to be open to the idea and reality of loving with someone I found attractive that wanted to be with me too.  Gender is not an issue or barrier for me and I have found love in the arms of men and women.  I used to say I was bisexual in orientation but since my transition realize that pansexual describes the broader range of people that includes we transgender people.  Some of us transgender people might be non binary or in different stages of transition too and remain quite lovable. ;)

Diversity is beautiful.   I have been here for years and watched as some folks evolved over time to accept aspects of themselves they previously denied.  Some of us who simply could not and would not imagine anything but vanilla before the liberation of our transition can attest to significant changes in outlook and behavior.   Once we free our minds from social strictures, cultural homophobia and the dominant themes of gender and hetero-patriarchy the world can show us the rainbow of delights and greater possibilities all of humanity has to offer.  We are unlimited in our capacity for love, understanding and the ability to create meaningful connections.

Genital Dysphoria is real but our genitals don't really determine who we are, do they?
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Tessa James

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 09, 2019, 10:13:18 PM
Though to my knowledge I've never met a non-binary or agender person so I can't definitively say that I don't find them attractive, i just don't know.


Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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AnamethatstartswithE

Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Nice to meet you too.  :)
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Linde

Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Nice to meet you, I am a queer and non binary transgender person and just love being part of this beautiful world! :-*
Also nice to meet you .  But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean!  There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean!  I really don't even know what I am.  The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman.  Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly  need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am!  Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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BritneyX

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
Also nice to meet you .  But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean!  There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean!  I really don't even know what I am.  The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman.  Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly  need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am!  Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!
You are you and no one else.  You are unique, as we all are, which makes us all not that very much different. 
"Out of all the attributes of humanity, the only one that matters most, is the one that cannot fail you.  That is Honesty. Without it, nothing else about your person will hold up." :angel:
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Tessa James

Quote from: Dietlind on January 09, 2019, 11:20:18 PM
Also nice to meet you .  But I still have no idea what those fancy terms mean!  There are new terms developed every 5 minutes or so, to describe subsets of transgender people, and I have no idea what those terms mean!  I really don't even know what I am.  The only facts that i know about me is that I am intersex, have no clear defined gender identity, but want to be a woman.  Does that mean that i am agender, because I don't really know what I am, but just know what I want to be?
Slowly  need a gender term dictionary that I can explain to people what I am!  Currently I only know that I am a pretty confused older woman!

Linde you make a good point and I urge you to forget the labels of the day and focus more on how you feel.  People are free to define themselves and new terms come and go.  Transgender is a word coined in the 60s and some folks are demiboi or genderfluid or just grryls ;)  Younger people seem very creative!  This is a journey of self discovery and if people really want to know more about you, than a first glance tells, they might have to pull up a chair and chat a bit?  You owe the world no explanations and I often stop people who ask what I am by asking; "why do you want to know? or what is your impression? or i'm a person with an interesting life or guess or all of the above!".

I sometimes think that i could be considered a deliberately self made intersex person.  I have had an orchiectomy and my genitalia could be considered "ambiguous" while I live with estrogen based hormones and appear female and male in some respects.  I hope and trust that reductionist idea is not offensive?

I love being queer and that is the simplest and most inclusive term I know of for my orientation and gender.  Call it as you see and feel it girl!
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Linde

Quote from: Tessa James on January 09, 2019, 11:58:18 PM

I love being queer and that is the simplest and most inclusive term I know of for my orientation and gender.  Call it as you see and feel it girl!
Even this queer term sounds negative o to me.  When I was younger, queer was not a word what on wanted to be!  One used to point with fingers at those queer people, and wanted to stay away from them as far as possible.

Now I hear young people like you, declaring with pride that they re queer, and I get cold shivers down my back.  At the same time, I might be one of them modern queers, who knows, because I don't know what queer means today!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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BritneyX

Quote from: Dietlind on January 10, 2019, 12:06:12 AM
Even this queer term sounds negative o to me.  When I was younger, queer was not a word what on wanted to be!  One used to point with fingers at those queer people, and wanted to stay away from them as far as possible.

Now I hear young people like you, declaring with pride that they re queer, and I get cold shivers down my back.  At the same time, I might be one of them modern queers, who knows, because I don't know what queer means today!
I was posting my big, long, thought provoking, challenging thoughts on etymology word matter.  OK, it was me that crashed the server with my mini exhortation.   >:-)  Oh well, I can't even remember half of what I said.    I will say this.  I am not given to the corruption or co-opting of words; for good or bad reasons.  It only serves to create confusion and deter proper communication.  It is also one of the big reasons why cis-Folks are having a hard time grasping and understanding who we are and what ->-bleeped-<-/Transsexualism is all about.  The ones that try to be open are being made to feel as if they ignorant and incapable of coming to an understanding on their own.  When I began to come to an understanding of myself as a Transgender, the flux of terminology was enough to make me feel so uncomfortable and inadequate, that I wanted to do an about face.  I have read this same note of apprehension from a number of other MTF Trans Folks.  By now, most everyone that has ever been on any sort of forum or social media has experienced being rotisserie à la newb.  Thankfully, the Family here at Susan has been most open, considerate, kind, loving, caring and sharing. 

So in the spirit of that endeavor, for me, the word queer will always mean : differing in some odd way from what is usual or normal.  The word gay will always mean : keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits, as well as, the name of my female Cousin.   My personal preference would be that if people don't care for the scientifically established terminology or the understanding behind that terminology has evolved, that they would just create a new word or re-establish the Greek or Latin in the proper context towards the corrected/evolved understanding.  Though I was trained by the Boy Scouts, IT, Navy to be by the book and verbatim with words and the terminology, just consider it my personal opinion.  I will not be upset if others choose differently.  I am usually sitting a table for one most of the time, anyway.   :-\     
"Out of all the attributes of humanity, the only one that matters most, is the one that cannot fail you.  That is Honesty. Without it, nothing else about your person will hold up." :angel:
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AnamethatstartswithE

I too had a nice long response that seems to have drifted off into the aether, oh well. I understand that reclaiming words can be a fraught concept. I also would feel like I don't have "the right" to try to reclaim transphobic terms since as far as I can tell I haven't been on the receiving end of any transphobic slurs. Homophobic slurs definitely, 5th through 9th grade I was called pretty much every homophobic slur under the sun.

That being said queer as a catch all term does seem like a useful term, since saying LGBT+ is a bit of a mouthful, and it helps to have a short catch-all.
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Linde

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 14, 2019, 07:40:29 PM

That being said queer as a catch all term does seem like a useful term, since saying LGBT+ is a bit of a mouthful, and it helps to have a short catch-all.
I will do a very unscientific survey and will ask my cis friends, what they think if the hear the word queer!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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HappyMoni

I hate that word. To me it's toxic.
If I ever offend you, let me know. It's not what I am about.
"Never let the dark kill your light!"  (SailorMars)

HRT June 11, 2015. (new birthday) - FFS in late June 2016. (Dr. _____=Ugh!) - Full time June 18, 2016 (Yeah! finally) - GCS June 27, 2017. (McGinn=Yeah!) - Under Eye repair from FFS 8/17/17 - Nose surgery-November 20, 2017 (Dr. Papel=Yeah) - Hair Transplant on June 21, 2018 (Dr. Cooley-yeah) - Breast Augmentation on July 10, 2018 (Dr. Basner in Baltimore) - Removed bad scarring from FFS surgery near ears and hairline in August, 2018 (Dr. Papel) -Sept. 2018, starting a skin regiment on face with Retin A  April 2019 -repairing neck scar from FFS

]
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Rayna

I think it's generational. To those of us raised in the, I don't know, 50's, 60's, 70's, "queer" was a slur.  Like you Moni, I have a hard time using it.  But it's become common and I accept it...I just rarely say it.
If so, then why not?
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Linde

Quote from: HappyMoni on January 14, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
I hate that word. To me it's toxic.
I am glad that I am not alone with my understanding of it here!
02/22/2019 bi-lateral orchiectomy






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AnamethatstartswithE

As per the beginning of this entire thread, I was assigned male at birth. Growing up I got the message loud and clear that someone like me liking boys was bad and wrong, and only broken, bad people did that. As I've transitioned I've found that not only am I attracted to women as I always knew, I'm also attracted to guys. However, since I was raised with "Me liking boys = bad" I internalized this and it still affects my thinking. Now, this is not the only reason I am hesitant to start exploring this side of my sexuality. Fertility is something that does concern me, if I end up with a woman then we could have biological children (I preserved fertility before starting HRT) with a man this would be more difficult. Furthermore, at the risk of TMI the sorts of things I could do with the "equipment" I have right now aren't all that arousing to me. However, the internalized homophobia is something I want to get rid of because I don't like having the kinds of attitudes that hurt so many people rattling around in my brain.

I also have internalized transphobia, I constantly have to fight the idea that I'm some sort of burden, and that asking "normal" people to accept me is unreasonable. When I see visibly trans women I will get this weird fear that she'll "give the rest of us a bad name." Acting out these roles is very harmful for us, and I want to be sure I'm not reinforcing them.

I'm assuming that this is something that gets better with time, but if anyone has any techniques on fixing this let me know.
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BritneyX

Quote from: AnamethatstartswithE on January 14, 2019, 08:44:23 PM
As per the beginning of this entire thread, I was assigned male at birth. Growing up I got the message loud and clear that someone like me liking boys was bad and wrong, and only broken, bad people did that. As I've transitioned I've found that not only am I attracted to women as I always knew, I'm also attracted to guys. However, since I was raised with "Me liking boys = bad" I internalized this and it still affects my thinking. Now, this is not the only reason I am hesitant to start exploring this side of my sexuality. Fertility is something that does concern me, if I end up with a woman then we could have biological children (I preserved fertility before starting HRT) with a man this would be more difficult. Furthermore, at the risk of TMI the sorts of things I could do with the "equipment" I have right now aren't all that arousing to me. However, the internalized homophobia is something I want to get rid of because I don't like having the kinds of attitudes that hurt so many people rattling around in my brain.

I also have internalized transphobia, I constantly have to fight the idea that I'm some sort of burden, and that asking "normal" people to accept me is unreasonable. When I see visibly trans women I will get this weird fear that she'll "give the rest of us a bad name." Acting out these roles is very harmful for us, and I want to be sure I'm not reinforcing them.

I'm assuming that this is something that gets better with time, but if anyone has any techniques on fixing this let me know.
I did many things that would have earned me the ire and angst from my male peers and some Family.  My Dad was not much of a Family man.  He was not mean spirited, foul, ill-tempered or missing.  He was just there.   I was the youngest of his second set of children and he was nearly 20 years my Mom's senior.  By the time that I rolled around, Family life began to become benign to him.  My Mother always babied me.  However, she was never slow to scold.  She knew that I played with girls mostly and we played house, dolls, and the odd dress-up.  However, at home, I was all "boy".   When I was younger, I would pull one of her bras out of the dresser drawer and ask where was mine and why didn't I have one.  She would always just blurt out an abrupt answer, never explaining.   She did catch me literally coming out of the closet.  My Dad had received a pair of "Manty Hose" from Spencer's Gifts as a gag present.  In one of my many junkets of exploring thru my Mother's clothes, I came across it.  At that time, I knew that panty hose was made for women.  So I wanted to try them out.  I was a literal kid, so I took "Manty Hose" as an actual clothing item for men.  So when my Mother went to see what all the rustling around in her closet was, out I pop sporting me some rather fetching Manty Hose!  She tried to hide her laughing while scolding me take them off.  She had a hard time explaining what they were when I told her, "Momma, I like them.  Why can't I wear them?  They even have a place for my manhood to fit."  I always called my penis my "manhood" till I hit puberty.  Not sure if that means anything.  She never spoke to me again about that.  It left me more confused as she did not really scold me to have me feel that it was "inappropriate", nor did she give any inclination that it was OK.  I was really beginning to understand what it was like to feel left blowing in the wind.   

Note:  I later learned that panty hose were not just for women, that men used them for various reasons. My Scout Master would wear them on long hikes to wick the sweat off the legs so that the cotton boot socks would not get soaked in the Summer heat.    Some of the boys would go "Ooh, yuck, that's girl stuff!"  I was like, "Neat, I did not know that." 

As for your perception of inside homophobia, don't sweat it.  You are you and have no reason to conform your life based on the perceptions of others.  You can't please everybody.   Trying to only serves to hurt yourself. 
"To thine own self, be true."

From what I have learned in the past couple of years is that there is no cookie cutter Transgender out there.  As we were talking on another thread, the medical community is on an ebb and flow with the terminology as they develop a broader understanding of Transsexualism.  When you throw the list of further terms and beliefs from the Trans community and the greater LGB crowd, it can get confusing, a somewhat daunting task for us discovering ourselves and those transitioning.  Just think how confusing it is to the lay person, who may or may not even know a Trans person. There is always that atypical person in any group, including Trans Folk.  Yes they are presenting an erroneous view of us, but they don't represent anyone but themselves. Ask yourself this, "Who represents the typical American?"  Answer:  No one!

Just be yourself.  Be true to yourself.  Feel how you want on the inside.  Let it reflect how you want on the outside.   Life is too short to worry about putting on a show for others.  If anyone has a problem with that, just move on.  There are 6 billion more people in the world that you can choose to associate with.  :)    There is bias in every single group. It comes in all sorts of forms and fashion.   It is called, human nature.
"Out of all the attributes of humanity, the only one that matters most, is the one that cannot fail you.  That is Honesty. Without it, nothing else about your person will hold up." :angel:
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