It is so ingrained

[Complete]

Our political views differ significantly however I am very willing to acknowledge that not everyone that shares my views act appropriately at all times.  It would appear that is the case with Mr. Smollett.  The police work seems to have been very thorough.  Of course just like anyone else it needs to be proven in court.

Regarding victimhood I know a lot of hard working people that advocate tirelessly for the rights of others.  I could list my own very hard work throughout my life in the midst of extreme challenges but I am not going to bore others with what I have overcome in detail.

No individual or ideological view has a monopoly on truth or justice but I still firmly believe that our society has a large number of marginalized people.  I have lived on both sides.  I have been privileged and I have been poor.  I have had terrible illnesses and I have prevailed.

What I have learned is that walking awhile in other people's shoes teaches a person a lot.  It has me.
As for Mr. Trump we will agree to disagree.  There are other venues such as Facebook etc for indepth political debates and this is as far as I care to go on this forum in that regard.  That is not the focus here.

My intent with this topic was not a political discussion and by reviewing my previous posts in this thread I focused on how transgender people are viewed by society.  I could go for pages regarding the political ramifications for transgender people but I choose not to as I think it is inappropriate in this venue.

I  understand.  We are all on the same side here. As for my views on Trump's presidency,  I posted my views as an example of political incorrectness. My political views have nothing to do with my views on victimhood and how since the 90's it seems that having been oppressed or descendant of an oppressed minority group carries some premium and entitles the bearer of such victimhood special privileges or allowances.
An example of this ' s how certain States offer free college tuition to illegal immigrants while requiring those native born citizens to pay full boat.
I think such practices deprive those"oppressed" citizens the opportunity to overcome their own challenges and learn,  just as you and l have.

[KimOct]

There are a lot of shades of gray in life and I think that is also true of this type of discussion.  I will admit that some people expect a free ride in life.  Not every underprivileged or person from a challenged background is a pillar of virtue.

Are there some inequities regarding trying to level the playing field?  Absolutely.  But I do believe in trying to level the playing field and continuing to try to get it 'correct' even if that is an unattainable goal.

Here is an example - I was raised in an upper middle class suburb.  I am white.  I am American.  Although I am transgender I am still privileged to some degree.  When my healthcare disappeared I knew how to fix it.  When I changed my name and gender legally I knew how to do it.  Why?  Well partially because I am reasonably intelligent but also because of the privileges I have enjoyed my entire life.

A young transgender black AMAB person that was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood without the education that I enjoyed  would have had a much more difficult time navigating this path than I did.

Are there inequities trying to level the playing field?  Absolutely.  Are there people that don't want to work hard?  Yes to that too.  But I will always believe that we should try to raise our fellow human beings.

I am going to attempt to change the nature of this conversation so I may or may not reply to any subsequent reply in this vein but I want to thank you for keeping your responses civil.  Disagreements can be respectful.

[Cindy]

I am reading with interest, and I shall reiterate KimOct's comment:  "thank you for keeping your responses civil.  Disagreements can be respectful."

Thank you to all for understanding that.

Cindy

[HappyMoni]

Kim,
I appreciate your patience and your intelligence. I like this thread. I will add my voice that it should be respectful. My opinion is that the political talk doesn't last long before it crashes and burns. I have strong political views that I must damp down here. I can't say I am 100% successful doing that, but I try. Trans people that I have met want equal rights and opportunity. They want no special rights. Some want the right to serve in the military and possibly die for their country. The 'special treatment' is the exclusion from that right. We talk about depiction on TV shows. That is certainly important for shaping many views toward trans people. The thing is, in some places (in the US), you can lose your job, lose your housing, lose your family, lose your self esteem, and lose your life just for being trans. "With liberty and justice for all!" Is that just BS phrasing we teach our kids to say, or is it a promise to all groups? The thought occurs that "you aren't paranoid if someone is really after you." These ignorance based restrictions on trans people's rights are real. People should complain and fight for their rights. I don't see anyone profiting from being trans. On the flip side, besides their rights, nothing should be given to trans people just because they are trans. They should work just as hard as anyone else. They should take on the same responsibilities as anyone else. A fair shot  at a good life is all I have  been seeing trans people ask for. To be honest, it is a little more than rights. I think trans folks who are good people deserve dignity. I really don't think a trans person who is obviously trans, (is that a better way to say 'doesn't pass'?) deserves any less dignity than someone who passes seemlessly.

[Complete]

A young transgender black AMAB person that was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood without the education that I enjoyed  would have had a much more difficult time navigating this path than I did.

Interesting example. I find it useful in that it helps make my point.
I was AMAB. l am also a woman of color and "was raised in a poor, violent neighborhood" where the sound of gunfire was as common as the sound of traffic, by a single teen age mom who also happened to be an immigrant to this country. I had none of those advantages and privileges afforded to white middle class Americans. Yet.....I was able to survive the beatings and virulent discrimination prevalent in the 50'sand 60's against people of color when l was growing up. Not only that, but knowing that l was a beloved child of God, l was able to maintain my Faith in The Lord, and find my way to those medical professionals,  who could make me whole.
I did not have an internet, that was not even a reality until 20 years after my SRS. Support groups? Don't make me laugh.
Please do not interpret my words as disrespect.  I am only expressing honestly,  those feelings evoked by the arguments being made,  that we are so oppressed,  so victimized,  that well. ...all our woes are the fault of an ignorant,  biased, hateful public at large.
I have pointed this out before and l apologize if  some of you might find my views, formed over decades of lived experience.  I do not believe that the accepted narrative that trans people are an oppressed minority. Just look at those professional trans-people making a great living in the media and entertainment industry.
So what about that  poor kid of color,  you ask? You mean like me, growing up in the 50's?
Well considering all the advantages currently available: like the internet, support groups , legislation offering protection and even financial support,  Obama-care, etc., etc...well, l'd say quit whining and looking to others to solve your problems, and just get out there and DO IT. It is your life afterall. Maybe you should just take care of it yourself.
Hmmmm....

[HappyMoni]

Trigger warning!


Complete I honestly applaud what you have done in your life. You had it tough and you worked hard to get where you did. I also feel you are right in making things happen for yourself and not expect someone to do it for you. I really don't think people being lost, or confused, or not born with the inner strength that others have is them sitting around whining. Some folks take a long time to find the strength they need to overcome. Sadly, many can't handle the stress and attempt suicide or end there life. I never want to have a viewpoint where I look down on those people who are desperate. Anyone who is of the mind to do so, I think, should try to be a little understanding of their difficulty and work to correct the legal injustices that exist. (This is my viewpoint and not to be interpreted as an attack on you or anyone.)

Trans people are certainly a minority. Having laws that prevent us from having a equal playing field with other Americans? Yeah, I'd call that oppression. It's not an excuse to become helpless, but it also is ridiculous to throw up our hands and say, "Second class citizen, oh cool! That's good enough!"

[Complete]

Thank you Moni, l am glad we can find some areas of agreement. The following statement however,  needs some unpacking.

Having laws that prevent us from having a equal playing field with other Americans? Yeah, I'd call that oppression.

I hardly see the overly liberal interpretation of certain Title IX laws which allow male bodied individuals to compete against natally born females, or to be housed or bath with females to be oppressive.

[KimOct]

I was going to let this thread die its eventual death but a small thing happened at work today that I thought it very illustrative of the point.   The topic of this is 'it's so ingrained'.   What I meant by that is how most of us think.  I don't just mean people that are judgmental of us I mean nearly everyone - including ourselves.

This thread wasn't intended to point out social injustice or persecution or hate or any such thing.  (I can do that in other topics  )  The point was to demonstrate how we think about gender as a society and anyone out of the gender norm.

So what happened today was small but telling.  I am talking to a young guy around 25 and he is complaining about his Mom yelling at him to get up that it is the middle of the afternoon.  He worked the graveyard shift and only slept 5 hours.
So I am letting him vent and tell him well some people just like to complain.

He says 'well you know how women are'.  He didn't mean because I am one he meant it in the way guys say to each other.  He thinks of me as a guy.  He is cool to me and we chat - he obviously has no problem with me but he definitely thinks of me as a guy.

I go to work with full makeup - polished nails my hair looks the same as my avatar - I might be easy to clock but it is obvious I am presenting as female.

Just like Scott the hero at the start of the story this guy today - Alex - think of me as a guy.  They are nice to me as most people are but it is the mindset that has been ingrained in them by living in this society by what they watch, see, hear from others.

I am not claiming some terrible wrong was done to me by either Scott or Alex.  There was not.  What I am saying is that our world has a long way to go before people start to 'get it'.  And that includes us.  Why would we have been so afraid to come out if we thought being trans was OK?

[Dena]

I have been letting this tread run without comment however I don't think this thread has really identified the problem. As I see it, the problem is ignorance or lack of empathy. Education can address the ignorance problem however lack of empathy is something you probably can't do much about. It is possible that a person will develop empathy as they get older. If you're having trouble dealing with somebody, you should determine which problem your dealing with and if it's possible to fix it. If you can't fix it, you may just be better off to minimize your contact and tolerate the idiosyncrasies.

[KimOct]

That is a good insight Dena.  Ignorance is one thing, lack of empathy is another.  It is hard to teach empathy and ultimately I think that is one of the most important traits a person can have.