It is so ingrained

[Tessa James]

Kim, are you serious? Are you joking? Are you seriously joking? Am I understanding the vast geo-political implications of the questions I just asked? As you can see I am a terminal wise ass. I like to try to lighten a tense mood with humor. Sometimes my attempts at humor go over like a fart in church, but I balance it out by getting passionately upset other times. Life is one giant emotional playground. I am thankful to have had my eyes opened to my emotions through transition. I cried today when Opie was telling Pa about his friend and his Pa didn't believe him. The first 20 times I saw that episode of Andy Griffith, I had no tears I could find. Now I cry and laugh at myself for doing it. Life is good.
Kirsten, if Kim doesn't care, don't apologize. Your bad jokes are awesome! lol As for support, thank you for the kind words, but I have gotten amazing support from most everyone I know, including Susan's. I am very thankful.

Bingo!  I think Kim's coworker was doing what much of humanity does around topics they are uncomfortable with...make it a joke or use humor to mask it.  Humor is a tool for touching the taboos.  As Kim notes on her byline; we are often dealing with our own internalized transphobia.  While we have huge external obstacles the ones we often agonize about here are the internal struggles to understand and accept ourselves.  Devlyn's correct in that many of us use these pages and shared space as a sounding board and a place to work out our internal struggles that include homophobia and transphobia.  Similar to dealing with racism we cannot expect people of color to fix that and it is up to us to reconsider what bigotry and prejudice we may harbor and need to work on.

Some of my early fears about being transgender had to do with the people I met who were OUT way before I was.  They seemed way messed up and over the top...much like me today

[KimOct]

That is a great point and I hate admitting this but ....  when I was first transitioning I was uncomfortable with the first trans people I came in contact with IRL.  I looked at them as being weird.  How messed up is that?  I was looking at people as weird that are dealing with the same issue that I was.

That is some serious internalized transphobia.  Over time I have learned that they are people - just like me. 

[Dana Thompson]

I think political correctness is an issue because people suddenly feel that they cannot speak their minds or need to suddenly repress themselves. For example the whole "holiday tree" thing. No, it's a Christmas tree. End of story.

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.



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[jill610]

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.



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This is going to come across a little rough (the perils of the internet), but I completely disagree. This is exactly what turns people against others - what was out in the open now just boils beneath the surface. This is what's gets people labeled as snowflakes. We are all different and should not pretend everyone is the same as the next.

Open and honest discourse is what leads to change and progress. If people don't speak their mind out of fear of offending someone then tomorrow will be exactly the same as today. If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the idea of "political correctness" has gotten so out of hand that what was once merely an attempt to not be hurtful has gone overboard.

As examples,

a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. Don't tell me I'm offending you with my Christianity by not calling it a holiday tree. Yes, I am aware that it was a Nordic pagan symbol that became intertwined with Catholicism as it expanded into the Nordic areas, but today it has religious meaning.

I was recently informed that "folks" is a non inclusive term exclusionary of gender non-binary people and I should instead use the term "folkx". Wait, what? In no dictionary does that show up.

This is what people think when you say we should be "politically correct". It has reached the point where it's almost farcical.

Inclusion does not have to mean political correctness. It is the opposite of exclusion, it does not mean people can't hold and express opinions, even if they are offensive. And as a liberal trans woman I don't think it should...

[Dana Thompson]

This is going to come across a little rough (the perils of the internet), but I completely disagree. This is exactly what turns people against others - what was out in the open now just boils beneath the surface. This is what's gets people labeled as snowflakes. We are all different and should not pretend everyone is the same as the next.

Open and honest discourse is what leads to change and progress. If people don't speak their mind out of fear of offending someone then tomorrow will be exactly the same as today. If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and the idea of "political correctness" has gotten so out of hand that what was once merely an attempt to not be hurtful has gone overboard.

As examples,

a Christmas tree is a Christmas tree. Don't tell me I'm offending you with my Christianity by not calling it a holiday tree. Yes, I am aware that it was a Nordic pagan symbol that became intertwined with Catholicism as it expanded into the Nordic areas, but today it has religious meaning.

I was recently informed that "folks" is a non inclusive term exclusionary of gender non-binary people and I should instead use the term "folkx". Wait, what? In no dictionary does that show up.

This is what people think when you say we should be "politically correct". It has reached the point where it's almost farcical.

Inclusion does not have to mean political correctness. It is the opposite of exclusion, it does not mean people can't hold and express opinions, even if they are offensive. And as a liberal trans woman I don't think it should...

This is what you think, don't generalize it to all people. Its an expression of incredible privilege to claim that "If you are offended by what other people think or say then personally, as an adult, grow up." Words have power and the many, many, microaggressions encountered by people everyday serve to further marginalize and disrespect those not part of the dominant culture. Everything already caters to white christian people in the US. Why do you need to claim some kind of martyrdom because people ask you to say Holiday instead of Christmas?


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[Kylo]

"Political correctness" is just an acknowledgement that the language we use has an impact on others. Why not be more inclusive? People should repress their biased and bigoted speech so I'm not seeing the problem.

If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet. Even the term - "political correctness" - suggests absolutely nothing to do with the avoidance of offense and everything to do with keeping people in line politically and ideologically. Which is what it is now being used for, as ever, and has nothing to do with "politeness" at all.

You will find many more people taking issue with political correctness as they begin to see just how insidiously it is being used to take away the voice of the individual. Words do indeed have power and if you think you can control those words, or control thought by suppressing them, you are sorely mistaken.

[KimOct]

Semantics can lead to nasty fights ( I am not saying that applies here but in general )  I think that is the case with the term 'political correctness'.  The phrase has evolved in my opinion to have a negative bias. 

Political correctness is usually implying that someone is being overly sensitive or a snowflake if they have a problem with something.  And those complaining about the need to be politically correct are annoyed that they feel that they can't speak their mind freely.

Anyone has the 'right' to speak as they wish - the Nazis the KKK whoever it is.  But somethings are just wrong.
The analogy about the Christmas tree has merit.  I understand it is just an analogy.  But it is in fact a CHRISTMAS tree
Just as a menorah is a menorah etc etc.

Being polite and respectful and empathetic is not about being 'politically correct'.  I have 3 kids 2 are severely autistic. How many times have I heard jokes about the 'short bus' referring to the smaller buses that usually transport special needs kids to school.  It hurts every time I hear it or when someone uses the word retarded.

Am I a snowflake?  I hardly think so.  I am tough as nails if you ask me.  I could write pages of the crap I have went through and overcome in my life.  I have had cancer, heart attacks, multiple layoffs, autistic kids, divorce, bankruptcy, death of loved ones.  I have survived but words do hurt because it speaks about us and to us.

Should we take everything as an attack? Should we have persecution complexes? Should we think that people have to walk on eggshells?  No of course not.  But people should learn that they should be more respectful of other people's beliefs, sexual or gender orientation, modes of worship and race or culture.

Is that being politically correct?  No I just think it is being a decent person.

[Kylo]

It might be nice if people were polite and said only nice things. But they don't and in a free society they do have the right to be impolite and to say mean things.

I would not want to live in a society where I was not permitted to dislike, disagree or have an occasional rant or spicy joke about something. The current state of political correctness however is on the cusp of making those things jailable offenses in my country. It is already a jailable offense to be particularly "offensive" online in the UK. Say you don't agree or like something and you will be labelled as ____phobic and immediately shut down. The "victim" of this "offense" only has to say they were offended by something you said and the law - not you - will determine what your intent was. A mortal insult to the notion of a "free country".

PC has indeed gone too far. It is now being used to suppress and oppress. Small wonder it is becoming so loathed.

All should remember that words are what allow us to release pressure, clear air and to solve problems without violence. When you take away the right to have words, including mean ones - then you have just made violence ultimately the only and inevitable outcome. And I would much rather have words - even mean ones - than real, actual violence any day of the week.   

Is anyone still wondering why politics has become so polarized and intolerance of opinions so easily turns to violence these days? It just might have something to do with how suffocating political correctness has become.

[Dana Thompson]

If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet.

This is not a true statement and even if it was, the origins of a phrase do not define its current meaning. Words and phrases can be used to both empower and denigrate depending on the context and intent of the speaker.

Even the term - "political correctness" - suggests absolutely nothing to do with the avoidance of offense and everything to do with keeping people in line politically and ideologically. Which is what it is now being used for, as ever, and has nothing to do with "politeness" at all.

You will find many more people taking issue with political correctness as they begin to see just how insidiously it is being used to take away the voice of the individual. Words do indeed have power and if you think you can control those words, or control thought by suppressing them, you are sorely mistaken.

Again, you are trying to make a semantic argument about a phrase while ignoring the reality. People do have the right to think what they want, and they do have the right to say what they want. Freedom of speech allows them to do so without government interference. It does not free them from consequences. Say what you want to say, it's your right, but I don't have to acknowledge it. Why, when all that is being asked is that a person is inclusive in their phrasing and terminology do people feel the need to claim that the "politically correct" are trying to control their thoughts?

I am done engaging on this topic. You have both been on this board far longer than me and I do not want to get into this type of discussion here.

[Dana Thompson]

Semantics can lead to nasty fights ( I am not saying that applies here but in general )  I think that is the case with the term 'political correctness'.  The phrase has evolved in my opinion to have a negative bias. 

Political correctness is usually implying that someone is being overly sensitive or a snowflake if they have a problem with something.  And those complaining about the need to be politically correct are annoyed that they feel that they can't speak their mind freely.

Anyone has the 'right' to speak as they wish - the Nazis the KKK whoever it is.  But somethings are just wrong.
The analogy about the Christmas tree has merit.  I understand it is just an analogy.  But it is in fact a CHRISTMAS tree
Just as a menorah is a menorah etc etc.

Being polite and respectful and empathetic is not about being 'politically correct'.  I have 3 kids 2 are severely autistic. How many times have I heard jokes about the 'short bus' referring to the smaller buses that usually transport special needs kids to school.  It hurts every time I hear it or when someone uses the word retarded.

Am I a snowflake?  I hardly think so.  I am tough as nails if you ask me.  I could write pages of the crap I have went through and overcome in my life.  I have had cancer, heart attacks, multiple layoffs, autistic kids, divorce, bankruptcy, death of loved ones.  I have survived but words do hurt because it speaks about us and to us.

Should we take everything as an attack? Should we have persecution complexes? Should we think that people have to walk on eggshells?  No of course not.  But people should learn that they should be more respectful of other people's beliefs, sexual or gender orientation, modes of worship and race or culture.

Is that being politically correct?  No I just think it is being a decent person.

I'm sorry, I said I was done engaging, but I just saw this. I appreciate your comment. I agree with how you feel when people refer to students with special needs that way. I am actually a special ed educator. I think that many people would argue with you that you are being "politically correct" by objecting to things like the word retarded. However, you see it's impact, you feel it's effect so you rebel against its use. This is good! Why then would say you are not "politically correct?" Whats wrong with that? You are asking people to be careful in their use of words, to consider its effect on others. That's all that "politically correct" phrasing is, its being a decent person.

[Complete]

Quote from: Kylo on Today at 05:04:44 pm
If you look up where "political correctness" came from you will find it was a tool used to control discourse, particularly from groups the reigning ideology wanted kept quiet.

This is not a true statement and even if it was, the origins of a phrase do not define its current meaning. Words and phrases can be used to both empower and denigrate depending on the context and intent of the speaker. ~Dana

Actually,  Kyle's is absolutely true. Consider: l believe Donald Trump is the best president since Ronald Reagan. I believe identity politics is the absolute antithesis of American ideals which actually divides us as a peoptand a United nation. I believe the demcratic party,  the party of my parents,  had been hijacked by socialists in their efforts to "equalize" us all. Just like the have done in Venezuela, where the political rulers get rich and the middle class has been exterminated.
How's that  for political correctness?

[Dana Thompson]

Actually,  Kyle's is absolutely true. Consider: l believe Donald Trump is the best president since Ronald Reagan. I believe identity politics is the absolute antithesis of American ideals which actually divides us as a peoptand a United nation. I believe the demcratic party,  the party of my parents,  had been hijacked by socialists in their efforts to "equalize" us all. Just like the have done in Venezuela, where the political rulers get rich and the middle class has been exterminated.
How's that  for political correctness?

@Kylo @jill610 enjoy your allies.


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[HappyMoni]

Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

[Dana Thompson]

Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

[emoji4] you're right of course HappyMoni. Bat piss it is! [emoji14]


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[HappyMoni]

[emoji4] you're right of course HappyMoni. Bat piss it is! [emoji14]


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Thanks Dana, I knew I could count on you! Beertender, bat piss for the house, it's on me. Which reminds me, I need a shower.

[KimOct]

Moist LMAO  you are a goof.  I love goofs.

I could easily get into a political debate but I tread lightly in that arena here because that is not the focus of this forum.
Unfortunately politics does impact us as a group and if you disagree I would argue that you are not paying attention but I digress.

Everyone has the right to speak their mind and beliefs and I would protest for the right of a hate group to have freedom of speech.  I may despise what they say but I defend their right to say it.  On the other hand I WILL NOT surrender my rights either.  All I ask in return is to be treated with respect.

And to attempt to bring this thread back to the point I think making us as a group the butt of jokes is hurtful and insensitive but not necessarily mean.  What's the difference?  Because as I said it is so deeply ingrained. 

Remember our hero Scott from earlier in the story.  Is Scott mean?  Absolutely not.  Is he insensitive? Yeah I think that's fair.  It's because he has been conditioned to think this stuff is funny.  But it hurts.  I laughed along to let him off the hook but it didn't feel good.  The silver lining in the story is that all of the people I work with have been changed because I worked with them.  I know I am well liked by most and they will take that with them after we part.  They will know a transgender woman that they like and that will move the needle forward in society.  But we are not there yet.

[HappyMoni]

Moist LMAO  you are a goof.  I love goofs.

I could easily get into a political debate but I tread lightly in that arena here because that is not the focus of this forum.
Unfortunately politics does impact us as a group and if you disagree I would argue that you are not paying attention but I digress.

Everyone has the right to speak their mind and beliefs and I would protest for the right of a hate group to have freedom of speech.  I may despise what they say but I defend their right to say it.  On the other hand I WILL NOT surrender my rights either.  All I ask in return is to be treated with respect.

And to attempt to bring this thread back to the point I think making us as a group the butt of jokes is hurtful and insensitive but not necessarily mean.  What's the difference?  Because as I said it is so deeply ingrained. 

Remember our hero Scott from earlier in the story.  Is Scott mean?  Absolutely not.  Is he insensitive? Yeah I think that's fair.  It's because he has been conditioned to think this stuff is funny.  But it hurts.  I laughed along to let him off the hook but it didn't feel good.  The silver lining in the story is that all of the people I work with have been changed because I worked with them.  I know I am well liked by most and they will take that with them after we part.  They will know a transgender woman that they like and that will move the needle forward in society.  But we are not there yet.

I've been called a goof and been compared to bat piss. Please everyone, don't ruin this for me by fighting. These are the nicest things anyone has ever said to me. 

Seriously, we have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn't mean we should. I personally have two things in mind for this life. One, get pleasure where I can. Two, leave the world a little better for me having been here. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. Through transition, I have mellowed a great deal. I get more pleasure out of having friendly conversations now. I don't seem to have the need to win any arguments. There is a line from the movie Harvey where Jimmy Stewart remembers a saying his mother had. "Elwood, in this life you can be ever so smart, or ever so pleasant. I prefer the latter." I love that movie. Kim, you handled Scott wonderfully, even though it hurt you.

[Linde]

Now you mention it Moni the black population often has a natural understanding of LGBTQI not because they are but because they know what it is to be on the outer for no legitimate reason.


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You are so very right!  My longest standing and closest cis friend/supporter is a black woman from Jamaica.  She just gets it!  No long explanations required!

[Complete]

Can we go back to bat piss please. It was such a warm place and it made me moist.

Moni

I see the passions rising. I hope we stay respectful. I like this thread.

Hmmm.....yes! Bat piss, yummy. ...NOT!
Gee.....did l say something politically incorrect?

[KimOct]

I've been called a goof and been compared to bat piss. Please everyone, don't ruin this for me by fighting. These are the nicest things anyone has ever said to me. 

Seriously, we have the right to do a lot of things. It doesn't mean we should. I personally have two things in mind for this life. One, get pleasure where I can. Two, leave the world a little better for me having been here. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until they prove they don't deserve it. Through transition, I have mellowed a great deal. I get more pleasure out of having friendly conversations now. I don't seem to have the need to win any arguments. There is a line from the movie Harvey where Jimmy Stewart remembers a saying his mother had. "Elwood, in this life you can be ever so smart, or ever so pleasant. I prefer the latter." I love that movie. Kim, you handled Scott wonderfully, even though it hurt you.

Moni - I know that you know that goof is a term of endearment.  Glad I could flatter you    As far as bat piss to each their own 

I agree with you completely and aspire to your life goals.  Also I have noticed the change in my demeanor since transition.  I am fiercely dedicated about trans rights and acceptance but I really enjoy just having pleasant conversation with other women.  On the whole they are so much more comfortable with us than guys are.