Trans-people in Sport

[emma-f]

So, its quite exciting, but I've been asked to go into my old University to do a guest lecture of the law of trans people in sports.

Its a fascinating topic and I have previously blogged about it, although not particularly from a legal perspective (https://shoesandbriefs.com/2019/01/26/transwomen-and-sports/)

Anyway, as the issue is kicking off on twitter with people from all walks of life are now chirping in I wondered what do other people think of the issue? It seems to be a difficult issue without any particularly easy answers. On the one hand, my personal view is that in some cases in some sports there could well be an advantage that a transperson might have, but on the other I am morally against the exclusion of trans women merely because of their trans status.

[Kylo]

I believe we need our own categories in sport.

As a group we often have undeniable biological advantages over the cis - with MTF, their biology often leaves them with greater size, bone size and strength regardless of hormone use than the average cis female, and we FTM are legally able to administer performance-enhancing hormones to ourselves. As transitioned individuals under HRT, we are in control of our sex hormones (which in turn affect our physical abilities) and the cis are not. If I were to compete in men's sport regardless of my size I do still have the ability to regulate my own testosterone and potentially improve my performance relative to my situation and non trans sportsmen cannot; should I enter myself as non-binary and compete with women, I have a direct observable advantage over them due to my testosterone levels which ranges from increased muscle mass to a considerably higher RBC count which gives me greater aerobic capacity and stamina.

We are going to see an outcry very shortly particularly from women's sport unless this is addressed in some meaningful way.

[emma-f]

I believe we need our own categories in sport.

As a group we often have undeniable biological advantages over the cis - with MTF, their biology often leaves them with greater size, bone size and strength regardless of hormone use than the average cis female, and we FTM are legally able to administer performance-enhancing hormones to ourselves. As transitioned individuals under HRT, we are in control of our sex hormones (which in turn affect our physical abilities) and the cis are not. If I were to compete in men's sport regardless of my size I do still have the ability to regulate my own testosterone and potentially improve my performance relative to my situation and non trans sportsmen cannot; should I enter myself as non-binary and compete with women, I have a direct observable advantage over them due to my testosterone levels which ranges from increased muscle mass to a considerably higher RBC count which gives me greater aerobic capacity and stamina.

We are going to see an outcry very shortly particularly from women's sport unless this is addressed in some meaningful way.

Very good points - I suppose that the testosterone that you take is akin to the TUE exemptions which themselves are highly controversial and prone to misuse.

[Iztaccihuatl]

So, its quite exciting, but I've been asked to go into my old University to do a guest lecture of the law of trans people in sports.

Its a fascinating topic and I have previously blogged about it, although not particularly from a legal perspective (https://shoesandbriefs.com/2019/01/26/transwomen-and-sports/)

Anyway, as the issue is kicking off on twitter with people from all walks of life are now chirping in I wondered what do other people think of the issue? It seems to be a difficult issue without any particularly easy answers. On the one hand, my personal view is that in some cases in some sports there could well be an advantage that a transperson might have, but on the other I am morally against the exclusion of trans women merely because of their trans status.

Emma,

Here are my thoughts. As for my background, in my 20ies I have been a male athlete competing successfully on a national and international level. Since I am still in the closet I don't want to share too many details here on a public forum, but if you want to reach out to me, feel free to PM me.

I am still active as a Masters athlete, still competing in the male division, but as I am contemplating coming out and potentially transitioning to a certain degree I have been thinking of what that would mean for my sports activities, which I love.

In my line of sports, which is run over a fixed distance, female athletes clock times that are consistently 15-20% slower than comparable male counterparts. So, hormones do matter.

The governing body for my sport here in the US has a very trans-friendly policy, in a nutshell, there are no formal requirements, I would have to contact the membership director and request a gender marker change, supply supporting testimony and if the director agrees, they will switch my gender marker, and inform my club. All records are held under lock and seal and if anyone wants to challenge the decision, the burden of proof is on their side, not the trans athlete's.

The international governing body doesn't have its own policy, but follows the IOC's, which currently requires for an MTF athlete at least HRT with a minimum of 1 year of testosterone levels in the female range.

If I started with HRT (I haven't made that decision yet), I would probably take a year of absence from competitions just to not cause a major stir. I might even be interested in serving as a referee during that year of hiatus. But I would like to return to competing and the ladies whom I would compete against, who already have established their pecking order, would probably not be pleased. Based on our national governing body's policies there is nothing they could do, but an occasional nasty comment is possible.

The overall question remains: would I continue to have an advantage even after 1 year on HRT? Due to growing up on testosterone I am very tall (even for a male) and I have a huge rib cage, resulting (a) in a 44 band size for bras , and (b) in a pretty large lung capacity, which after proper training can lead to a high VO2max. Both of these things are advantageous in my sport. However, I don't think these are reasons for prohibiting trans women from competing in the women's division forever. For one, there are a few other cis women who are 6'6" tall or have a huge lung capacity. I might be an outlier, but I am not totally off the charts of cis women. Also, the possible advantages of height and rib cage cannot be measured and are probably minuscule to the disadvantages of significantly lower muscle mass as a female which explains more than 95% of the time differences between men and women.

In my case I also have an advantage over my competitors (both male and female) in the Masters category, which is that I have over 40 years of experience in my sport, while others picked up the sport very recently. In a sense this is similar to Renee Richards who if I remember correctly was outed because of her tennis style,  her prior experience, because she played 'like a man'. Here might even be the biggest influence of MTF trans athletes in sports who could bring new ideas in the form of tactics or techniques from the male side to the female side of their sports and challenge other female athletes to adopt similar techniques.

HM


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[Iztaccihuatl]

I believe we need our own categories in sport.

As a group we often have undeniable biological advantages over the cis - with MTF, their biology often leaves them with greater size, bone size and strength regardless of hormone use than the average cis female, and we FTM are legally able to administer performance-enhancing hormones to ourselves. As transitioned individuals under HRT, we are in control of our sex hormones (which in turn affect our physical abilities) and the cis are not. If I were to compete in men's sport regardless of my size I do still have the ability to regulate my own testosterone and potentially improve my performance relative to my situation and non trans sportsmen cannot; should I enter myself as non-binary and compete with women, I have a direct observable advantage over them due to my testosterone levels which ranges from increased muscle mass to a considerably higher RBC count which gives me greater aerobic capacity and stamina.

We are going to see an outcry very shortly particularly from women's sport unless this is addressed in some meaningful way.

I respectfully disagree. A own category for trans people would be akin to a new para category and trans people would be relegated to competing in Paraolympics, rather than as fully abled athletes in  open Olympics Games. Trans people are not disabled in any form or fashion and therefore do not need their own category!

Respectfully,

HM


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[Alice (nym)]

Can you name any transgender athletes who have competed in the Olympics?  Can you name any transgender athletes who have dominated their sport? 

I am not on HRT but correct me if I am wrong... does it not result in significant muscle loss and a loss of bone density?  As for things like height etc. There are tall women, there are short men. Are we to ban all cis gendered women over 6ft? 

What about cis women who are born with Swyer syndrome and have XY chromosomes and higher levels of testosterone than average women... it affects 1 in 80,000 women.

It seems like transwomen are being put in an impossible situation where if they do actually win then everyone will say it was because they were once biologically male rather than the effort, time, and skill of the athlete.

Now I don't know the ins and outs of the two transgender students who won that race recently, but some news stories were saying that they were not taking blockers... and if that is the case then they shouldn't have been competing. However, that needs a credible source to verify if that was true or not. But the person making the most fuss about it came 8th in the race!  Even if you remove the two transgender athletes she still came 6th!  She is using transgender as an excuse for her own failings instead of facing the truth that she wasn't that good of an athlete after all. AND that is the problem.

There is a lot of myth and false information being peddled at the moment about this issue. If you are going to do a talk on the subject then you really need to learn your stuff because they will be itching to pull you apart in order to fuel their agenda to ban transwomen from sports for no other reason than prejudice. Learn all about the science behind it. Learn about the people they will bring up to try and disprove you. People like Fallon Fox is a one they love to go for because she fractured an opponent's skull... well other cis women have had bones in their skull fractured too in fights... the bone around the eye socket gets fractured quite easily... and there have been worse injuries in fights between cis women... not to mention that Fallon Fox lost one of her fights by knock out to a cis gendered woman. So make sure you know all the ins and outs and have your sources on a handout in case anyone tries to dispute you. Also be wary of people quoting false cases... recently on one of the UK radio stations there was a caller who invented a story about a transwoman attacking other women in a hospital, the DJ accepted it as truth and pushed the story on the health secretary trying to make him come out against transwomen.

You have the opportunity to do a lot of good... but be prepared or you will end up being like a lamb to slaughter. 

Good luck. I've been fighting this battle for the last two weeks online and it is like trying to explain things to a two year old who has their hands over their ears and is shouting 'la la la la' as loud as they can.

[emma-f]

Can you name any transgender athletes who have competed in the Olympics?  Can you name any transgender athletes who have dominated their sport? 

I am not on HRT but correct me if I am wrong... does it not result in significant muscle loss and a loss of bone density?  As for things like height etc. There are tall women, there are short men. Are we to ban all cis gendered women over 6ft? 

What about cis women who are born with Swyer syndrome and have XY chromosomes and higher levels of testosterone than average women... it affects 1 in 80,000 women.

It seems like transwomen are being put in an impossible situation where if they do actually win then everyone will say it was because they were once biologically male rather than the effort, time, and skill of the athlete.

Now I don't know the ins and outs of the two transgender students who won that race recently, but some news stories were saying that they were not taking blockers... and if that is the case then they shouldn't have been competing. However, that needs a credible source to verify if that was true or not. But the person making the most fuss about it came 8th in the race!  Even if you remove the two transgender athletes she still came 6th!  She is using transgender as an excuse for her own failings instead of facing the truth that she wasn't that good of an athlete after all. AND that is the problem.

There is a lot of myth and false information being peddled at the moment about this issue. If you are going to do a talk on the subject then you really need to learn your stuff because they will be itching to pull you apart in order to fuel their agenda to ban transwomen from sports for no other reason than prejudice. Learn all about the science behind it. Learn about the people they will bring up to try and disprove you. People like Fallon Fox is a one they love to go for because she fractured an opponent's skull... well other cis women have had bones in their skull fractured too in fights... the bone around the eye socket gets fractured quite easily... and there have been worse injuries in fights between cis women... not to mention that Fallon Fox lost one of her fights by knock out to a cis gendered woman. So make sure you know all the ins and outs and have your sources on a handout in case anyone tries to dispute you. Also be wary of people quoting false cases... recently on one of the UK radio stations there was a caller who invented a story about a transwoman attacking other women in a hospital, the DJ accepted it as truth and pushed the story on the health secretary trying to make him come out against transwomen.

You have the opportunity to do a lot of good... but be prepared or you will end up being like a lamb to slaughter. 

Good luck. I've been fighting this battle for the last two weeks online and it is like trying to explain things to a two year old who has their hands over their ears and is shouting 'la la la la' as loud as they can.

You make some interesting points, some of which I agree with, some which I dont. And the talk is on the law behind it, I'm a barrister, and I know that inside out. I think that you overestimate the feeling behind those against it. Its a very narrow band of people who are so passionately against it, many of whom spend all their days online, so I'd frankly be astounded if there was a single awkward question. Its not a fairplayforwomen talk.

The reports I read of those two students in the US were that they were on hormones and blockers. OF course that proves little anyway, in any statistical analysis there will be outliers. Likewise I accept that save for Dr McKinnon there are no known trans women who have made it to the top of the tree, but again this means little when one considers our visibility and rights have exploded of late.

However, nor do I think it is as simple as removal of testosterone makes us weaker and there are tall women anyway as an answer to the issue. The other side might be building straw men, but there are hypothetical questions which at least, in some sports and in some cases, make you question issues.

When women with high testosterone have been treated to reduce their testosterone to "normal" levels they do have a resultant reduction in athletic ability. To my knowledge their are no before and after studies of athletic abilities in trans women but that matters little. However, the difference in some (not all) sports at the elite level between female and male times appears to be more than the difference one would expect to find merely with suppressed testosterone (which a British study that I read suggested was 3-5%, although this is itself controversial, with other studies, including those being presented at CAS at present on behalf of Caster Semenya suggesting no discernible increase in athletic performance from testosterone). This suggests that in some sports something else beyond mere testosterone is at play for the difference in elite times.

And nor do I think that we can answer the issue of increased height merely by saying that some women are tall. In sports where being tall matters (which is of course not all sports and as HM says below, in other sports any increased height might make no difference) I think that there is a difference between being naturally tall, and being born of the taller sex. Many trans women decry our additional height (in my family all the women are 5 ft 2, the men 5 ft 8 and I'm now 5 ft 7 having apparently lost an inch with hormones, go figure), had we been born women we would not have had that advantage. Whilst it might be attractive to say "well, to hell with it - my life's been full of dysphoria, its nice that I'm able to use it for something good" I can see the viewpoint of a cisfemale who might question this.

As I say, I don't think its an easy question, and nor do I think the answer lies in either extreme.

Em x

[AoifeB]

Name one trans Olympian. And I mean currently competing. There aren't any, which suggests any hormonal advantage is removed during HRT.

[emma-f]

Name one trans Olympian. And I mean currently competing. There aren't any, which suggests any hormonal advantage is removed during HRT.

I'm afraid I disagree with this. Correlation does not equal causation. I could say name 1 Olympian from my village? You can't - well that means that people from my village lack the genetic make up to be Olympians.

Nor is the reverse correlation true. One cannot say that merely because Rachel McKinnon was world champion, or the New Zealand athlete was picked for weightlifting at the Commonwealth games, or those 2 girls in the sprints in Connecticut I think it was, is evident that trans people do have an advantage

Em x

[Alice (nym)]

And nor do I think that we can answer the issue of increased height merely by saying that some women are tall. In sports where being tall matters (which is of course not all sports and as HM says below, in other sports any increased height might make no difference) I think that there is a difference between being naturally tall, and being born of the taller sex. Many trans women decry our additional height (in my family all the women are 5 ft 2, the men 5 ft 8 and I'm now 5 ft 7 having apparently lost an inch with hormones, go figure), had we been born women we would not have had that advantage. Whilst it might be attractive to say "well, to hell with it - my life's been full of dysphoria, its nice that I'm able to use it for something good" I can see the viewpoint of a cisfemale who might question this.

I disagree with this... the logical conclusion to your argument is that shorter women decry taller women for being able to compete. Someone who is 5'2" is not going to be able to compete against a cis woman who is 6' in a game of basketball. Even within the subgroup of cis gendered women there are huge differences in ability purely because of differences in body build. Should we ban black people from competing in sport because on average they are genetically more muscular than the average white person because of selective breeding during slavery. Should we ban Nepalese and Tibetan people from competing in high altitude marathons because of their genetics?

People come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of genetic advantages and disadvantages... singling out transwomen because of their height and reach is nonsense when they make up such a small percentage of the population and are no better represented than cis gendered women with the exact same physical traits.

The fact that transwomen do not dominate their sports is very significant and can't be compared to the village example that you have given. We are disputing claims by transphobes that transwomen have a distinct advantage that allows them to dominate their sport. We are fighting transphobes who are claiming this is happening now. We are fighting transphobes who think that men can put on a dress, change their name, compete, win a few trophies and sponsorships and then transform back into men.

[emma-f]

I disagree with this... the logical conclusion to your argument is that shorter women decry taller women for being able to compete. Someone who is 5'2" is not going to be able to compete against a cis woman who is 6' in a game of basketball. Even within the subgroup of cis gendered women there are huge differences in ability purely because of differences in body build. Should we ban black people from competing in sport because on average they are genetically more muscular than the average white person because of selective breeding during slavery. Should we ban Nepalese and Tibetan people from competing in high altitude marathons because of their genetics?

People come in all shapes and sizes with all kinds of genetic advantages and disadvantages... singling out transwomen because of their height and reach is nonsense when they make up such a small percentage of the population and are no better represented than cis gendered women with the exact same physical traits.

The fact that transwomen do not dominate their sports is very significant and can't be compared to the village example that you have given. We are disputing claims by transphobes that transwomen have a distinct advantage that allows them to dominate their sport. We are fighting transphobes who are claiming this is happening now. We are fighting transphobes who think that men can put on a dress, change their name, compete, win a few trophies and sponsorships and then transform back into men.

With respect:


1.  I fall firmly on the side that trans people should be able to play sports as their acquired gender, but I do not think things like height, body proportions etc do not play a part in the debate
2. The fight against the transphobes that you refer to who suggest that men can put on a dress, change their name, compete, win a few trophies and sponsorships and then transform back into men is a fight to be had, but in reality those people are ignored by anybody with any influence. The real fights to be had occur much more quietly, with the IAAF, the IOC, at CAS to name but a few and it is here where the real debates are occurring, not with people on twitter who use their 140 characters to get more followers

[LizK]

  I have re-opened this thread as there are a number of members who want to continue to discuss this issue. I remind everyone to stick to the topic at hand and not let this resolve into name calling. If you do not agree with what someone's point of view is, then please engage on the points you disagree with and not the person. If there are any further issues with this thread then it will be locked and penalties will be handed out.

[Kylo]

I respectfully disagree. A own category for trans people would be akin to a new para category and trans people would be relegated to competing in Paraolympics, rather than as fully abled athletes in  open Olympics Games. Trans people are not disabled in any form or fashion and therefore do not need their own category!

Nobody but you made the "association" between being trans and being disabled. We have male and female separate sports categories for the exact same reason I just stated. Trans would simply be a third.

Name one trans Olympian. And I mean currently competing. There aren't any, which suggests any hormonal advantage is removed during HRT.

It's not just HRT.

While this does not apply to every single case of trans people in sport by any means, to deny the average in physical differences as a result of our hormonal and chromosomal origins is to deny anyone in this photograph has a potential physical advantage:

[Iztaccihuatl]

Nobody but you made the "association" between being trans and being disabled. We have male and female separate sports categories for the exact same reason I just stated. Trans would simply be a third.

Here is the problem with introducing a 3rd category for trans people: Because only 0.4% of the population are trans, the average results would be below the ones of the cis categories, just due to the lack of a wide enough field of competitors from which the top ones can be selected. Therefore in the public eye the trans category would be viewed as a protected category. Take Rowing as an example, they have a lightweight category where only athletes below a certain body weight are admitted. In the upcoming 2020 Olympics in Tokyo there is only one lightweight event planned, the double sculls. Would you rather compete in the open double sculls or the lightweight double sculls? And the IOC wants to eliminate the lightweight category from the Olympic program entirely because it is a protected category where people can win who wouldn't otherwise be able to.

Besides, a trans category wouldn't solve any problems, it would just move them to a secondary arena. You still would have a trans men's and trans women's divisions, you would still need to figure out how to deal with someone who is trans, but isn't on hormones yet, or how to deal with intersex people, etc.

So, all in all, a trans category would not be helpful for the trans people's cause.

It's not just HRT.

While this does not apply to every single case of trans people in sport by any means, to deny the average in physical differences as a result of our hormonal and chromosomal origins is to deny anyone in this photograph has a potential physical advantage:

While the trans player is unquestionably taller than her teammates and probably taller than most players of the opposing team, that doesn't necessarily mean that she has an unfair advantage. She could be missing most of her shots... And smaller players might be more agile and could be capable of outrunning her, etc.

Also, I think I read somewhere that she is 6'6" tall and there are cis females of that height (not many, but they do exist). If one of those would pick up basketball, nobody could complain either. Therefore I don't think that the trans player's height gives her an unfair advantage (yes, she has an advantage in one area like a cis women of that stature would have, but it is not unfair).


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[Iztaccihuatl]

Name one trans Olympian. And I mean currently competing. There aren't any, which suggests any hormonal advantage is removed during HRT.

First of all, I agree with you that any hormonal advantage is removed during HRT. However, I don't think that this explains why there are no known active trans Olympians, after all at an assumed rate of 0.4% of the population being trans, one would assume that statistically there are around 40 trans athletes at each Olympic Summer Games. And it is possible that there are 40 trans athletes, but they might be in the closet or not even fully aware that they are trans, like Caitlyn Jenner back in Montreal in 1976. Or some of them might be cross dressers who wouldn't tell publicly.

Also, in most every sport it takes about 7-10 years to reach the world class. In other words, you have to start really young (especially in gymnastics, but in most sports no later than age 15) and stick with it consequently. If gender identity issues are coming up during that time, the athlete either gives up the sport to deal with these issues, or suppresses them to reach their goals and deals with the gender stuff after ending their career, often many years later.


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[emma-f]

While the trans player is unquestionably taller than her teammates and probably taller than most players of the opposing team, that doesn't necessarily mean that she has an unfair advantage. She could be missing most of her shots... And smaller players might be more agile and could be capable of outrunning her, etc.

Also, I think I read somewhere that she is 6'6" tall and there are cis females of that height (not many, but they do exist). If one of those would pick up basketball, nobody could complain either. Therefore I don't think that the trans player's height gives her an unfair advantage (yes, she has an advantage in one area like a cis women of that stature would have, but it is not unfair).


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This is why I think that the arguments are interesting and not clear cut and I can see both ways.

I can see the argument that some cis woman are as tall as she is, and therefore she has no advantage over women generally because it could have been a cis woman who reached that height. I can also see the argument that it can be said that she reached her height to at least a significant extent because she was born male, and that that is therefore unfair.

Basically, when assessing whether trans people have any advantage, is that by reference to whether some cis-women also have that characteristic? The main problem that I see with that is that every single male characteristic is displayed by some women, even raised testosterone. Logically it would follow that a trans woman could compete in female sport without even suppression testosterone on the basis that some woman also have raised testosterone as well. I know thats not what you're saying, but that illustrates a counter argument.

Where I think I agree wholeheartedly with you is that some assessment must surely be made as to whether that characteristic is in fact an advantage. In some sports it would be an advantage, in some neutral and some actually a disadvantage. I'm increasingly wondering if this can ever be one size fits all

Em x

[Michelle_P]

There is a tremendous range of different parameters constituting athletic capability in cisgender women.  Transgender women who have been on Hormone Replacement Therapy for one year, in compliance with IOC and NCAA guidelines, will have parameters for their body that lie within the domain of those found in cisgender women, in particular muscle mass in ratio to body mass and various skeletal measurements.  No IOC/NCAA limitations apply to transgender men.

As Brynn Tannehill has noted, if there were am athletic advantage that lay outside the range for cisgender women we would see transgender Olympians.  We do not.

[Devlyn]

As we see more girls trying out for football teams, and boys trying out for field hockey teams, might we be headed for a world of sports where the trophy is simply given to the person or team who did best? 

[sarahc]

Fundamentally, I think the question here is: are women's competitions (especially those at the highest and professional levels) for AFABs only or all people who have female hormone profiles?

I think that there are many women in women's competitions who want the competitions to be for AFABs only, excluding those who at once had the advantage of testosterone to give them additional height and who had testosterone eliminated through medical procedures.

On the opposite side are those who think civil rights and access for all to competitive sport for all trumps that desire to limit competition. In other words, civil rights are s more important than some women's opinions of competitive fairness.

I myself have very mixed feelings on these arguments...I see merit on both sides of this issue.

In the coming years, I expect there to be more world-class trans women athletes, especially since there are so many more young transitioners than there used to be. And because of that, I think there is going to be more pushback by other women athletes, especially at the professional level.

[Iztaccihuatl]

This is why I think that the arguments are interesting and not clear cut and I can see both ways.

I can see the argument that some cis woman are as tall as she is, and therefore she has no advantage over women generally because it could have been a cis woman who reached that height. I can also see the argument that it can be said that she reached her height to at least a significant extent because she was born male, and that that is therefore unfair.

Basically, when assessing whether trans people have any advantage, is that by reference to whether some cis-women also have that characteristic? The main problem that I see with that is that every single male characteristic is displayed by some women, even raised testosterone. Logically it would follow that a trans woman could compete in female sport without even suppression testosterone on the basis that some woman also have raised testosterone as well. I know thats not what you're saying, but that illustrates a counter argument.

Where I think I agree wholeheartedly with you is that some assessment must surely be made as to whether that characteristic is in fact an advantage. In some sports it would be an advantage, in some neutral and some actually a disadvantage. I'm increasingly wondering if this can ever be one size fits all

Em x

Aside from testosterone, all other potential advantages a trans athlete might have are insignificant, usually within the potential range of cis persons of the same gender and shouldn't be considered.

As far as testosterone goes, I think the current IOC rules are a good compromise. Yes, it sucks if an MTF trans athlete transitions mid career because she has to take a full year off which could have an impact on sponsorships and the entire support structure she has that allows her to practice 24x7, but after the testosterone abuse by the Russians and East Germans in the 60ies and 70ies, the IOC has to put the requirement of minimum one year on female t-levels in.

As far a cis women with naturally high t-levels go, I think by now they let them compete which in my opinion is totally okay, because sport should be inclusive and not exclusive. After all, there are only a few isolated cases which won't impact any sport in the long run.