What would you do in your spouse's place?

[Iztaccihuatl]

As I have stated in other Forum entries, I recently came out to my wife as trans and she is struggling with it. So I tried to put myself in her place to get a better understanding.

In particular I did this mental experiment: What would I have done if I was a cis male and my wife came out to me as a trans male? Of course, being trans myself gives me a biased view on this subject and I would like to claim that I was fully understanding and stayed with her/him, but deep inside I know that this is not the case. Being someone who doesn't make spontaneous decisions I would have taken time to think about it and I think I would have been fine if my partner wanted to have short hair and dress in male clothing primarily at home, but as long as I could see some female elements I guess I would still see my wife and not a man and probably would be somewhat fine with it. But if my partner wanted to start on hormones, and I understand that the T causes facial hair to grow pretty quickly, I feel that would have crossed a threshold for me where I am not sure if I could follow along.

Unfortunately this is exactly where my wife is in regards to my trans feelings, she is ok with me dressing at home, probably sees me as her husband in costume, but HRT, FFS or GCS would cross a line that she isn't sure she can step over together with me.

Here is my question to you all: Have you done a similar thought-experiment and if yes, what conclusions did you reach about yourself and how did that impact your relationship with your spouse?

Love,
HM

[LizK]

I tried to have this as one ot the upper most thoughts when considering any issues between us about my transition. I am still not certain that I could have been as generous in heart as she is. I would like to think I would be but then the problem with this is I don't think like a cis male, and never have so I don't really know how I should react. If that makes sense...

I would like to think I would have stuck with her and because I am trans then I definitely would stick with him...The conclusion I came to was to never forget why she says and does the things she does. I try my hardest to "look after" her in lots of ways and in ways that I had not done pre transition.

Liz

[Allie Jayne]

I've also thought about this a lot, and come to the conclusion I just don't know. If my husband all of a sudden announced that he was going to transition and wanted my support, I doubt I could give it. There would be a major trust issue, and he would have demonstrated he was prepared to put himself before me. If I wasn't open to an asexual or lesbian future, I think I would find moving on to another hetero relationship attractive.

But if my husband was open to me before we got married, demonstrated a history of regarding me in his decisions to build trust, then included me in the problem solving around his gender issue, I would feel more certain of my future, and maybe, just maybe, willing to support him and find the best outcomes for us both. It would depend a lot on age, children, financial situation, family, careers, and unrealised dreams.

It is so hard to predict how I would react in so vastly different situations, but the basics of trust, love, and future needs would be the guides.

Allie
 

[Kylo]

Maybe it's because of my condition, being transsexual and bisexual for as long as I remember and how that would obviously affect the biology of a person, but someone's physical markers of gender/fertility and ability to reproduce does not appear to be a subconscious priority for me in a spouse. Maybe it's why I don't even have a spouse but instead someone who fills more needs than that - also a friend and as good as a family member to me. Their ability to have kids and to fit a masculine or feminine role in that regard means almost nothing to me... as a consequence their genitalia and expression isn't that big of a deal.

I've also never been needy for sexual gratification. Again, it might be something related to my condition and the life it has led to. I can live without sex. Someone having particular body parts or not is not the end of the world.

I do understand natural attractiveness of male and female for their respective qualities, but I am 100% more interested in who they are in the brain and whether they are pleasant company.

It's always been a mystery to me why some people get into relationships without much of an interest in the person they are being intimate with or their company or personality. That's because of the way I view people. It seems many other people operate from a position of "finding a mate" to reproduce with or finding someone who fits a prescribed expression or description. Not me. I just like interesting people. Good looks are just a plus.

So, that said... if my OH decided tomorrow he wanted to become a woman... well, fine. As long as he didn't become a different personality to be around that was detrimental in some way.

I do put a lot of this down to the way bisexuality makes a person open minded about who they can partner with, and the rest down to my own social/psychosexual needs (or lack of). My motivation to seek out someone of a particular gender and expression and my own motivation to adopt a particular gender and expression in order to seek out said person is just absent for the most part. Not sure why, might be some difference in the brain as a result of this condition.

[Kirsteneklund7]

I actually discussed this scenario with my wife when I began HRT. She said she would never personally take FTM HRT or even a mild T boost.  It would not bother me if she went the path of transition but it just so happens it would not suit her.

She is lucky she is rock solid in her CIS female identity. I cant say the same for me. She is quite reasonable considering Im not the same man she married. She tolerates my HRT - I think she knows I might not survive without it.

The biggest concerns I would have as a spouse would be the effect on the children and the integrity of the family- I hate to say it - what would others think - social life ruined for the children and "the normal spouse"

Today I was told,
" Get that outfit off now or leave! "
I dont blame her for thinking my feminine dressing is unacceptable. She is a normal woman.

If I complete my transition I will lose my loved ones, it is as simple as that.

Being trans has little logic or rhyme or reason - I dont think there is necessarily a good answer to the trans conundrum.


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[Faith]

My wife and I talked extensively about what a reversal of situation would do. After much discussion I came to this conclusion:

I would love to say I'd be open and accepting and love would see us through. Honestly, I don't know.

I know what I was like and who I was prior to my transition start .. I was not a good man. Self-centered, angry, bitter, withdrawn. Someone who would not accept (I did have my 'good years' that got my wife through the 'bad years').

I also know something else that my wife and I have talked about. I have no qualms about any homosexual relationships -- unless you're hanging all over yourselves in public, but, that goes for heterosexual couples as well.

It is very likely that I'd be in roughly the same position my wife is now, accepting, supportive, letting love sustain me.

All of my thoughts and musings are tainted by who I am now. I'd have to go back 5 years and get 'his' opinion. I'd also have to go back 20 years to get 'his' opinion. Then also 30 years for yet another 'his' opinion. I've changed a lot over the years.

My wife is a strong cis-woman. It's very hard to imagine her differently, yet, we are all different from who we were just a few short years ago. We all change as we age.

[CynthiaAnn]

So many what if's ? I personally try and focus on living in the present and going forward however, these questions tend to look into the past. My wife and I had these discussions numerous times, over the course of many years as I transitioned within our marriage of 34 years and came to the conclusion it's apples and oranges, there is no real answer. If the shoe fit on the other foot, we would probably go forward as we do have much common purpose beyond traditional marriage roles. Our relationship builds on each other's strengths, she is my rock, my true compliment, a soul mate I was meant to be with. The gender components become less important later in life I think (subjective). We've done the child rearing years, been there done that. Having said that I did tell her about myself best I knew then before we were married, that simple honesty so long ago, made a huge difference today. I love her with all my heart, we move forward and be the best we can be as humans, as partners, and as lovers. Interesting topic to read this morning, everyone's story is so personal, love wins in the end.

Cynthia  -

[Gertrude]

Never did it, don't know what I would do. I'm biased.


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[randim]

Tough question.  It is so hard to visualize myself as a conventional cis male (in the way my spouse is a conventional cis female) it is hard to say what my reaction would be.  Even at the height of my suppression I have always considered myself non-standard issue in some significant societal way, which is not the case for my spouse.  She imagines herself everywoman.  I consider myself a species of 1 at times.  So, it is hard to really say.  I have forgiven her for a long-term affair and supported her through eating disorders and weight issues, and backed any life changes she has wanted to make in terms of careers and such. And we have had a celibate relationship for decades, so sex is not an issue. I do think I would be supportive of her if she was transitioning.  I think I have enough of the radical and IDGAF in me to do that.  But the more you GAF what other people think, the harder that becomes.  And she gives a great many Fs about what her social circle thinks.  It is tricky.

[DawnOday]

Tough question.  It is so hard to visualize myself as a conventional cis male (in the way my spouse is a conventional cis female) it is hard to say what my reaction would be.  Even at the height of my suppression I have always considered myself non-standard issue in some significant societal way, which is not the case for my spouse.  She imagines herself everywoman.  I consider myself a species of 1 at times.  So, it is hard to really say.  I have forgiven her for a long-term affair and supported her through eating disorders and weight issues, and backed any life changes she has wanted to make in terms of careers and such. And we have had a celibate relationship for decades, so sex is not an issue. I do think I would be supportive of her if she was transitioning.  I think I have enough of the radical and IDGAF in me to do that.  But the more you GAF what other people think, the harder that becomes.  And she gives a great many Fs about what her social circle thinks.  It is tricky.

My situation with my present wife is so similar to yours. She supports to a point but then she doesn't really want to see it. We've invested 35 years with each other and our last sex was Oct 6,1993 the night before I went in for open heart surgery.The doctor told her I had a limited life expectancy because they damaged the electrical function in the process. Yet she stayed by my side and we raised our family. She knew I crossdressed before we married but never brought it up as it remained a secret to everyone else.. All these years later she is still hanging in there. I feel so fortunate to address my life-long search for myself.  Meanwhile after 2 1/2 years of HRT she is kind of warming up to the kinder, gentler more open me.

[KathyLauren]

My wife has been the model of an understanding and supportive spouse.  I couldn't have asked for better.

Had it been the other way around, her transitioning and me being cis, I don't know if I could have done the same.  My attraction to women is very binary: I find men a bit repulsive.  So, while I'd like to think I would have been supportive of her transition, I don't know if I could have stayed with her.

[krobinson103]

I actually discussed this scenario with my wife when I began HRT. She said she would never personally take FTM HRT or even a mild T boost.  It would not bother me if she went the path of transition but it just so happens it would not suit her.

She is lucky she is rock solid in her CIS female identity. I cant say the same for me. She is quite reasonable considering Im not the same man she married. She tolerates my HRT - I think she knows I might not survive without it.

The biggest concerns I would have as a spouse would be the effect on the children and the integrity of the family- I hate to say it - what would others think - social life ruined for the children and "the normal spouse"

Today I was told,
" Get that outfit off now or leave! "
I dont blame her for thinking my feminine dressing is unacceptable. She is a normal woman.

If I complete my transition I will lose my loved ones, it is as simple as that.

Being trans has little logic or rhyme or reason - I dont think there is necessarily a good answer to the trans conundrum.


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My ex used to say things like that. I left. I need to be me and can't pretend to be anything else. If she can't handle that then thats the price I pay.

[Jeal]

As I have stated in other Forum entries, I recently came out to my wife as trans and she is struggling with it. So I tried to put myself in her place to get a better understanding.

In particular I did this mental experiment: What would I have done if I was a cis male and my wife came out to me as a trans male? Of course, being trans myself gives me a biased view on this subject and I would like to claim that I was fully understanding and stayed with her/him, but deep inside I know that this is not the case. Being someone who doesn't make spontaneous decisions I would have taken time to think about it and I think I would have been fine if my partner wanted to have short hair and dress in male clothing primarily at home, but as long as I could see some female elements I guess I would still see my wife and not a man and probably would be somewhat fine with it. But if my partner wanted to start on hormones, and I understand that the T causes facial hair to grow pretty quickly, I feel that would have crossed a threshold for me where I am not sure if I could follow along.

Unfortunately this is exactly where my wife is in regards to my trans feelings, she is ok with me dressing at home, probably sees me as her husband in costume, but HRT, FFS or GCS would cross a line that she isn't sure she can step over together with me.

Here is my question to you all: Have you done a similar thought-experiment and if yes, what conclusions did you reach about yourself and how did that impact your relationship with your spouse?

Love,
HM

This is my daily reality as well.  Reading the book "She Said She Said: Love, Loss, & Living My New Normal" was enlightening.  I think it is very hard for spouses, particularly wives, because society expects them to be supportive, and yet they have to deal with an intense grieving process as the old us melts in front of their eyes to be replaced by someone they may not be able to feel love towards.  Not to mention a sense of betrayal that we 'lied' to them (not that I feel I ever lied to her, I didn't know myself, I COULDN'T know myself, because it was too unsafe).

My wife is VERY straight, so that is one way in which we are completely different (I have always had bi/pan sexual tendencies).  If I were very straight I think I would do what she is doing; trying to put up a wall/distance, and yet try and keep the pragmatic parts of the relationship intact (child rearing/monetary) until such a time as splitting up made sense for myself and the kids.  I would want to try and keep a good friendship, both for pragmatic reasons and because fifteen years is a long time, and I love her as a person.  I think I would try harder to understand what being transgender means and see things from her side, but maybe without going through all my experiences of being bullied and harassed I would be so taken off guard that I would NOT be so understanding.  I might just lack the frame of reference to understand.

[Iztaccihuatl]

Had it been the other way around, her transitioning and me being cis, I don't know if I could have done the same.  My attraction to women is very binary: I find men a bit repulsive.  So, while I'd like to think I would have been supportive of her transition, I don't know if I could have stayed with her.

I feel the same way and obviously my wife does too. I am wondering if that means we have hidden homophobic tendencies? I mean, if I had an accident that would cost me my male parts, my wife would certainly stay with me even if it means no more sex for the rest of our lives. As long as she still has a male partner she would be fine. And I would feel and do the same for here if she would suffer a similar accident.

This kind of leads me to another thought experiment: I am certainly gynephilic. Could I envision having sex with a man? In male mode, the answer is clearly a resounding no. However, imagining me as a woman, I can picture that. It certainly isn't my preference, but I could envision that. The man is faceless in those thoughts, which leads me to believe that I have the heteronormative picture so well engrained in my mind that I can envision having heterosexual sex with a man although I am clearly oriented towards women as partners. Does that mean there is some level of homophobia and that is why I would have a difficult time accepting a trans-male partner, even if there wasn't any sexual component involved?

[Jeal]

I feel the same way and obviously my wife does too. I am wondering if that means we have hidden homophobic tendencies? I mean, if I had an accident that would cost me my male parts, my wife would certainly stay with me even if it means no more sex for the rest of our lives. As long as she still has a male partner she would be fine. And I would feel and do the same for here if she would suffer a similar accident.

This kind of leads me to another thought experiment: I am certainly gynephilic. Could I envision having sex with a man? In male mode, the answer is clearly a resounding no. However, imagining me as a woman, I can picture that. It certainly isn't my preference, but I could envision that. The man is faceless in those thoughts, which leads me to believe that I have the heteronormative picture so well engrained in my mind that I can envision having heterosexual sex with a man although I am clearly oriented towards women as partners. Does that mean there is some level of homophobia and that is why I would have a difficult time accepting a trans-male partner, even if there wasn't any sexual component involved?

As someone who has been attracted to both, but have only ever partnered with women, I have much less trouble seeing myself with a man the more I transition, and am less inclined towards women sexually.  Honestly though, I think I suffered too much bullying and harassment from men to trust them easily.  It would have to be a really sweet, gentle guy who wanted to treat me with great care and consideration. 

[Kylo]

" Get that outfit off now or leave! "

I find it completely bizarre how someone would be so nettled by someone else's dressing up in mere clothing. It's as if it's an insult to them personally somehow I suppose, an assault on their senses or their own sense of identity rather than yours. I think it's quite unreasonable really. But then I would never profess to tell someone else how to dress in the first place. All of my relationships have a fixed underlying principle - I retain my freedom in anything that pertains to my person and doings (aside from seeing other people), they can retain theirs. This is non-negotiable.

The notion that dressing upsets a person is pretty alien to me. The idea that a person must dress a certain way to be considered a man or a woman is equally dumb in my view. After all, drag queens are known to still be men and the form is considered an art. Actors dress up as whatever they are required to, nobody bats an eye. Women can dress like men if they want and are not ridiculed. It's sexism and fear - fear of how it might make the other person feel when they look upon it.

[Kirsteneklund7]

I find it completely bizarre how someone would be so nettled by someone else's dressing up in mere clothing. It's as if it's an insult to them personally somehow I suppose, an assault on their senses or their own sense of identity rather than yours. I think it's quite unreasonable really. But then I would never profess to tell someone else how to dress in the first place. All of my relationships have a fixed underlying principle - I retain my freedom in anything that pertains to my person and doings (aside from seeing other people), they can retain theirs. This is non-negotiable.

The notion that dressing upsets a person is pretty alien to me. The idea that a person must dress a certain way to be considered a man or a woman is equally dumb in my view. After all, drag queens are known to still be men and the form is considered an art. Actors dress up as whatever they are required to, nobody bats an eye. Women can dress like men if they want and are not ridiculed. It's sexism and fear - fear of how it might make the other person feel when they look upon it.

I tend to agree with what you have said here. In a nutshell your take is very similar to mine. If my wife chooses masculine attire then no-one bats an eyelid.
When I dress femme there is massive outrage.
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[Gertrude]

I find it completely bizarre how someone would be so nettled by someone else's dressing up in mere clothing. It's as if it's an insult to them personally somehow I suppose, an assault on their senses or their own sense of identity rather than yours. I think it's quite unreasonable really. But then I would never profess to tell someone else how to dress in the first place. All of my relationships have a fixed underlying principle - I retain my freedom in anything that pertains to my person and doings (aside from seeing other people), they can retain theirs. This is non-negotiable.

The notion that dressing upsets a person is pretty alien to me. The idea that a person must dress a certain way to be considered a man or a woman is equally dumb in my view. After all, drag queens are known to still be men and the form is considered an art. Actors dress up as whatever they are required to, nobody bats an eye. Women can dress like men if they want and are not ridiculed. It's sexism and fear - fear of how it might make the other person feel when they look upon it.

It's social pressure from perceived norms. Humans want to belong and the fear is being voted off the island. It's so ingrained from a young age that it takes work to get by it, even for us. Maybe finding acceptance in a group that is ok with it would give a substitute sense of belonging for a spouse, but it also depends on the ties he or she has to their family or origin and culture. It's one thing to be voted off the island by society, but cuts deeper with family. We're a family of choice, whereas the family of origin isn't.


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[randim]

I tend to agree with what you have said here. In a nutshell your take is very similar to mine. If my wife chooses masculine attire then no-one bats an eyelid.
When I dress femme there is massive outrage.
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I think much of the difference is due to the patriarchal nature of our culture
and its latent misogyny. Presenting as femme threatens male privilege in some way. I know many don't care for feminist rhetoric, but it does explain a lot.

[CynthiaAnn]

I think much of the difference is due to the patriarchal nature of our culture
and its latent misogyny. Men presenting as femme threatens male privilege in some way. I know many don't care for feminist rhetoric, but it does explain a lot.

I agree with above, it's like an inconvenient truth that's embedded in social evolution, like it or not it's there.

Knowing this brought us to our it's "different, and not equal" conclusions....

We seek and engage in a complimentary life with each other, and it works...

Cynthia -