Breast development

[Lori Dee]

Thanks @Robbyv213,

My personal opinion doesn't matter. The purpose of this forum is to share information, preferably correct information.

Although I couldn't imagine why some one would lie about developing health issues such as dvt, blood clots or reporting they had a stroke.

The reason is that they are attempting to steer people away from medically prescribed hormones. Why would they do that? Marketing. Many people already do not trust the medical establishment and Big Pharma. They are playing on those fears to sell untested, unregulated, and ineffective supplements. BreastNexus is one of many websites that do this. It would not surprise me if those stories are not from actual users of the products, but shills just doing more marketing.

The more people buy into their hype, the more commissions they make from Amazon and their other affiliate suppliers. It is all about sales.

The research I do is on studies published in the Journal of Endocrinology and the National Institutes of Health PubMed. These are peer-reviewed medical journals. A study based on bogus hype will not qualify for publication.

Part of the problem we have is that it is estimated that transgender people only make up about 1% of the world's population. And that is only the ones that were counted. Many more may still be in the closet, confused, or not ready to admit to anything.

With such a small percentage of people available for any kind of study, the studies that are being done involve a very small sampling involving maybe 25 - 100 participants. In the scientific community, any results from a small study are considered "medically insignificant" and therefore disregarded by the medical community in general.

They rely instead on studies involving thousands of people, like the Women's Health Initiative which had tens of thousands of women participating. When something goes wrong, as it did, they stopped the study and issued warnings about the dangers. The FDA gets involved and repeats these findings. Then everyone is repeating the same information without bothering to see if it is relevant. Doctors swore to "do no harm" so they tend to tread cautiously.

I can give an example to demonstrate what I am talking about. The Women's Health Initiative participants were taking Premarin (PREgnant MARe urINe) conjugated equine estrogens and a synthetic progestin. If you go to the FDA website and look up Prometrium (micronized bioidentical progesterone) you will find the quote referencing the risk of taking synthetic progestin. Why? It isn't relevant. Prometrium is bio-identical to human progesterone produced in the ovaries.

And so the misinformation continues to get spread.

My point to all of this is not to criticize anyone's decision on what or how they will develop their own bodies. My intent is to ask people to do their own research, use their brains, and really think about what they are doing.

If you don't take care of your body, where are you going to live?

[Courtney G]

A few data points from me - not science or anything, really - just sharing this:

• I started on herbals (oral)
• My father had arteriosclerosis. I don't know about his cholesterol but mine was chronically high until I treated it with a statin. There was some history of heart disease on my father's side
• I got some breast development pretty quickly while on herbals
• Had soreness in one of my calves, which turned out to be a clot. Blood tests revealed high levels of d-dimer and another enzyme (?) associated with clotting. After treatment for the clot, and having discontinued the herbal HRT my values were good and they stayed that way. Haven't had an issue since
• I decided I couldn't do without HRT, so I contacted and endo and patches were the logical choice
• I've supplemented the estradiol/spironolactone with topical progesterone. My docs knows about it and is fine with it. She agrees that the topical option is good for me. It's bioidentical and is derived from wild yams, but no, you can't get the same affect by taking a wild yam supplement. There's a chemical process required to synthesize the P4
• After a couple of years on herbals and finasteride, plus 2 years and 5 months (and counting) on pharma HRT, my breast development has exceeded my wildest expectations. My breasts are large and full - very round, and appear to be Tanner 4 ("mound on mound"). My areolae are large. I do wish my nipples were a bit bigger, but they might continue to develop a bit.

Regarding progesterone cream, it is NOT advised to apply it to breasts. As I understand it, this can lead to an increased risk of tumors. I apply a small amount nightly to non-fatty areas below my belly button. There's a piece you can Google entitled "ALWAYS APPLY BHRT BELOW THE UMBILICUS" that might be useful.

[Lori Dee]

I have read that article. It is also useful to explain why we apply patches where we do.

The P4 cream does work better on thin skin, like you said. I read an article that recommended applying to the throat, neck and upper chest area. With thin skin, it has less to penetrate and can get into the bloodstream better. Then the circulatory system can get it to the P-receptors in the breast tissue.

Thanks for sharing!

[Sweet luck]

The next 6 months is where I started seeing some development.  Like the others have said, save your money and be patient.  Above all else don't ever, ever, ever, go the unsupervised route. 

Warm Regards,

Paulie.

Dear Pauline, thank you for your feedback 😊
Of course I'm taking hormones under the supervision of doctor and I pass blood tests regularly every month. Now my Estrogen has acheived target level of 170 pg/ml and testosterone level dropped down to the value less 0.2 ng/ml. I think it is good result after 3 months of HRT. Sometimes I feel some seal in my nippels, but now any other effect. That's why I was suggested consuming folic acid, it is safe as vitamin supplement. I know that pregnant women intake it to ensure pregnancy go smoothly.

[ChrissyRyan]

After some initial development, for a long while I thought that there would be no further growth.  But I was pleasantly surprised.  More came my way.  So if yours seamed to have peaked, do not give up hope, you may get more.

Chrissy

[Lori Dee]

That's why I was suggested consuming folic acid, it is safe as vitamin supplement. I know that pregnant women intake it to ensure pregnancy go smoothly.

Folic acid is taken by pregnant women to prevent birth defects in their children. Are you pregnant? It has nothing to do with breast development. Please be safe.

[Sweet luck]

Are you pregnant? It has nothing to do with breast development. Please be safe.

I would be very happy if I were pregnant 🤭
But it's not my case))
Folic acid is a commonly used supplement not only for pregnancy planning. There are a lot of benefits of folic acid, it works with b12 as important vitamin for hair growth, increases skin hydration etc. I think these effects might be useful for transgenders as well. What do u think?

[Lori Dee]

B12 is more for nerve health than hair growth. Biotin is the B vitamin for hair, skin, and nails. But the way that B vitamins work is they support each other. Taking one vitamin is less effective than taking a B complex, so all the Bs are included in a balanced formula. I take Super B Complex and a Women's multivitamin for hair skin and nails. It includes the biotin, but also magnesium, iron, etc. so you get all the benefits.

For skin hydration, the best thing to do is drink water. Keep the skin clean and apply moisturizing lotion. They help lock in the moisture.

I agree with you that these things would be helpful, but there are better ways to do it that will provide benefits to overall general health, and not just a target issue.

[Paulie]

I have a couple of questions that may have already been answered on this thread, but I don't currently have the time to read back through the whole thread.

The first has to do with growing spurts:  Are your breast only tender during growing spurts?  In other words, "if my breasts are tender, are they currently growing?"   My breasts have been pretty tender for the last 6 months and the growth in the last 3 has been very satisfying.  So, here's the real question, can I expect the growth to continue as long a they are still tender?

Now, here's the second question: Do pubescent girls hold and squeeze their developing breasts, or is it just something that 60 something MTF's do?  Or is it just me?  Seriously, I'm assuming most of us really don't (and shouldn't) know what pubescent girls do, but I can't seem to keep my hands off of mine when I don't have a bra on.  Partly because it feels good to have them held, and partly because it feels good to hold them.  I just hold them; the nipples are too tender for much else.  So, again, the real question is, "Is it just me?".         

Paulie.

[Gina P]

Paulie,
 They are called fun bags for a reason. I play with mine every chance I get. Rubbing the nipples stimulates the release of prolactin and increases growth. At 61, I am a full C cup and the fat redistribution is making them bigger all the time. Coming up on 2 years hrt. Pain has subsided but still a little tender under the nipples. I have spoke to many trans girls and seams most of us are into breasts and touching them. It's really nice to not have to buy a dinner and a show, to get a feel.   Oops where did that come from?

[Lori Dee]

Paulie,
 They are called fun bags for a reason. I play with mine every chance I get. Rubbing the nipples stimulates the release of prolactin and increases growth. At 61, I am a full C cup and the fat redistribution is making them bigger all the time. Coming up on 2 years hrt. Pain has subsided but still a little tender under the nipples. I have spoke to many trans girls and seams most of us are into breasts and touching them. It's really nice to not have to buy a dinner and a show, to get a feel.  Oops where did that come from?

That gave me a chuckle. 

Since my dosage and method have been changed, I notice some tenderness, itching, or aches. It is mild and not bothersome. Supposedly that is a sign that they are growing (fingers crossed). Usually, those symptoms subside with a little massage. The nipples have become more sensitive but in a good way. Sometimes if I am massaging and bump the nipple, it is like: "HELLO! More please!" 

[Courtney G]

I just crossed the 2.5 year HRT mark and my breasts are still constantly sore. Kind of a low level soreness, like they're bruised. Sometimes, I'll get a mild shooting pain sensation that seems to be centered around my nipples. Growth seems to have slowed a bit and mine are very generous at ~36C but I believe they still are growing. Soreness seems more pronounced the day after I replace my estradiol patches.

It would be fair to say that I'm obsessed with my breasts. I'll share pics of them with any trans woman who is interested in seeing them and I've shared update pics with my best (cis female) friend, who is extremely supportive.

Even after all this time, I still lift my shirt to look at them when I head into the bathroom. My areola are large and my nipples are pretty sensitive, so it gives me a great deal of pleasure to touch them. Honestly, I can't get enough of them, either. I think it's because having them is truly a dream fulfilled and since I remain mostly closeted, they're the main source of affirmation of my femininity.

Regarding developing cis girls, while I have no firsthand experience, I have to imagine that the level of interest in one's breast varies from person to person but that the ones who are more actively interested in them as more than ornaments is somewhat limited. I say this based on conversations with adult women over the years, as my long-term desire to have my own often led me to ask them questions about theirs! Then again, they might all enjoy theirs, during and after puberty, but remain tight-lipped about it!!

[ChrissyRyan]

The medically supervised HRT route is the best way to use HRT and any medicines.

Even herbals could interact with your condition or medicines so it is good to share with your personal physician all pertinent information, symptoms, concerns.. Ask questions and follow sound medical advice.

Chrissy

[Paulie]

I found this article very interesting.  The author does state that she is not an MD but a researcher.

https://moderntranshormones.com/2018/01/01/whats-wrong-with-spironolactone/

My blood pressure was on the low side so my GM didn't increase my Spiro when updating my HRT meds about a year ago.  I"m on a very low Spiro dose and lower to mid level Estradiol dose.  After reading this article I'm glad my GP kept the Spiro low.  I'm pretty happy with my breast development so far.  If it does slow at some point, I may ask for some other antiandrogen. 

A stronger antiandrogen may help with other aspects for MTF, of which I don't think I'm seeing much of.  I guess I should look into this a more.  For many reasons, it's hard to look at yourself in the mirror and see the changes.

Warm Regards,

Paulie.
 

[ChrissyRyan]

I do not mind underwire models.  I do not think that means necessary they are metal wires, right?  Why I ask is the bottom of some of my cups look like they have a thin curving support band or wire but I am guess they are NOT made of metal.  Otherwise, would not most ladies be stopped those airport security machines (unless the bra's metal could be ignored somehow)?


Chrissy

[Lori Dee]

I found this article very interesting.  The author does state that she is not an MD but a researcher.

https://moderntranshormones.com/2018/01/01/whats-wrong-with-spironolactone/

My blood pressure was on the low side so my GM didn't increase my Spiro when updating my HRT meds about a year ago.  I"m on a very low Spiro dose and lower to mid level Estradiol dose.  After reading this article I'm glad my GP kept the Spiro low.  I'm pretty happy with my breast development so far.  If it does slow at some point, I may ask for some other antiandrogen. 

A stronger antiandrogen may help with other aspects for MTF, of which I don't think I'm seeing much of.  I guess I should look into this a more.  For many reasons, it's hard to look at yourself in the mirror and see the changes.

Warm Regards,

Paulie.
 

I went through this argument with my endocrinologist. Spiro is not an androgen blocker. Read that again. Spiro is NOT an androgen blocker. It interferes with the 5a reductase enzyme which affects testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, prolactin, etc.

I was having all kinds of problems getting my hormones into the female range. They kept raising the dose but even that was ineffective. The reason is that the body uses testosterone for different things, one of which is converting it into cholesterol that your body needs. So if you block it and raise estrogen, the body will convert excess estrogen into testosterone and you have a zero net gain.

She dropped the Spiro and started me on Eligard (leuprolide) injections every 90 days. It isn't for everyone because it is expensive. But it blocks testosterone production at the source. She added a daily dose of Casodex (bicalutamide) which is an androgen blocker that does not affect the 5a reductase enzyme and therefore has no hormonal activity. It only blocks the androgen receptors. This combination is the equivalent of "chemical castration".

What happened was that my testosterone production stopped. Any testosterone that was being converted from estrogen was effectively blocked. My T- levels dropped into the female range and I stopped taking the Casodex. My last lab for T was back in August and I came in at 22. I still get the Eligard injections (the next one is Oct 24) and it is holding my T levels in range so the Casodex was no longer needed.

This is just my experience. Everyone's biology and body chemistry are a little different, so YMMV. But if it is an option for you, I highly recommend it and drop the Spiro.

[Lori Dee]

I do not mind underwire models.  I do not think that means necessary they are metal wires, right?  Why I ask is the bottom of some of my cups look like they have a thin curving support band or wire but I am guess they are NOT made of metal.  Otherwise, would not most ladies be stopped those airport security machines (unless the bra's metal could be ignored somehow)?


Chrissy

Some are flat wires but the metal is so thin it won't trigger an alert. Most belt buckles, metal zippers, and such go right through. If you are wearing a lot of metal that might trigger it. The machine looks at how much metal you are wearing.

Some underwires are plastic, perhaps nylon?

[ChrissyRyan]

Some are flat wires but the metal is so thin it won't trigger an alert. Most belt buckles, metal zippers, and such go right through. If you are wearing a lot of metal that might trigger it. The machine looks at how much metal you are wearing.

Some underwires are plastic, perhaps nylon?

Thank you.

[she she]

@LoriDee thank you for the information.

And yes there are no real studies of specific things on humans, mostly just animals and seeing if X, y, or z herb has an effect on estrogen or anti testosterone in the animals being tested on.

I can only speak for the blood clots and dvt reports by word of mouth since a hand full of the members of Breastnexum forum has reported that they developed these issues and were trying to warn others about it. Granted it is a public forum and people can post what ever they want. If they are truly having success or not, or developing health issues or not it's got to be taken with a grain of salt. Although I couldn't imagine why some one would lie about developing health issues such as dvt, blood clots or reporting they had a stroke. But they can also have a very different genetic male up and have other underlying health issues that others don't.

But I can see you are very against using herbal methods, so I won't bring it up here anymore. Again I am new at all this and figured the more information out there the better. But if it's wrong information and I'm helping spread it than I apologize.

I follow that site,,breastnexum,, some of those individuals have amazing breasts that they post pictures of.  They sound like chemists talking about all the stuff they mix up to make them big.

[Lori Dee]

I follow that site,,breastnexum,, some of those individuals have amazing breasts that they post pictures of.  They sound like chemists talking about all the stuff they mix up to make them big.

I have tried their products and got zero results after spending a lot of money. I was talking to an online gamer friend about it (she is trans) and she told me to stop playing with my health. The products are not quality-controlled or regulated. There is no guarantee that any of the things they say are in the products are there. They also push precursor hormones and make it sound like your body will convert them into the actual hormones. Biology doesn't work that way.

My friend warned me that if you are not having your hormones monitored so they can be adjusted by medical personnel, then you are taking risks with your health. I took her advice and went the medical route. I wish people would learn from the experiences of others, but many people can't afford the medical route or are too shy to talk to a doctor about this very personal issue. So they take the shortcut and waste time and money and take risks to their health.