Estrogen receptor oversaturation ( or what else could be wrong? >

[HaleyVale]

Hi,

I posted already on the trans board about this and got the suggestion to ask here about help.

In the last year I noticed not only a halt of my hrt effects ( which was probably to expect 2 years into hrt back then), butvalso a gradual reverse.
- more body hair, though most of it as tiny, blonde hair
- change in body odour ( my ex named it as it being less feminine, more amdrogynous, but hard to describe)
- rougher skin and wider pores, especially in the skin
- lose of subcutaneous fat tissue and more muscular appearance, especially on the legs, feet, hands and neck
- also my veins are easier to notice snd sometimes I have very masculine hands through that.
- hairloss ( though I reversed it through additional finasteride intake)

I was on estradiol pills + spirinolactone for the longest time, though I switched to gel about 9 months ago when all of this started. overall I had a very successful transition, a near perfect passing and was very happy with it- but sadly the gel hasnt brought me back there. very gradually everything I gained vanishes.

I was opioid addicted and still get buprenorphin as a substitution, but I spoke with a couple of experts, who assured me, that while opioids have a mostly feminizing effect on endogenous male endocrinology, it shouldnt affect an exogenous  system like in hrt.
Also I had high prolactine levels and suddenly very high estradiol levels, while I was on the same dose. Its adjusted now for a while, but things just got worse, up to the point, that my bf seperated from me, because he lost physical attraction to me for quite a while. I cant blame him for it, I dont feel comfortable in this body at all.

With all this first success lost, with a doctor who denys something is wrong, because my levels are kinda in the female ranges, I'm really starting to lose hope. I heard about a possible oversaturation of the estrogen receptor, when doses were to high. my endo says, thats not a thing at all, though she also claims that to high estrogen levels damage the receptor. its irritating for me and I dont trust her at all.
I want to give it a try and need to know how long I should stop taking what. also the finasteride and amdrocur or just the E?
Also I'm thankful for every other opinion what might be going on and any tips.

thank you <3

[HaleyVale]

btw I am 23 and started with 20

and my testosterone levels were in the lowest female range in every blood works

[Quinn]

I think that if you want to research information from the internet and get opinions that is fine, but I think you need to bring the information you gather to your doctor and present your case.

If you think your doctor is not taking you serous you have the option of changing to another Doctor or get a second opinion from another doctor. My opinion is you should always proceed under the care of a physician

You should not start or stop your current hormone regiment on the advice of someone off the internet that is not medically trained, it can be dangerous to your health and transition. You have no idea who is on the other side typing the response you could be following and proceeding with medical advise from a 13year old.

Always think of your health and safety

take care
 

[HaleyVale]

Yes, ofc you are right.

I dont want to follow blindly any instructions from the internet, but I want to hear about others experiences and knowledge, to make me a picture of my own and also present it to my doctor. I also talked to another endocrinologist and other doctors, especially about the possible interactions of my other medications with my hrt. Sadly my endo doesnt see the need to do anything more than standard therapy ( undetailed bloodworks every 6 months and adjusting of the dose)  and this doesnt even work. My E levels werent where they should be for quite a while.

I'm sadly in need to do that on my own and already did alot of research, but what I need to get a greater picture, are the experience reports of others, who may have had similiar problems.

[Dani]

I was on estradiol pills + spirinolactone for the longest time, though I switched to gel about 9 months ago when all of this started. overall I had a very successful transition, a near perfect passing and was very happy with it- but sadly the gel hasnt brought me back there. very gradually everything I gained vanishes.

I think you just answered your own question.

Even without knowing your full medical history, if you start a new drug regimen and you are not getting the expected results, something is wrong. The simplest thing to do is just go back to your previous HRT regimen.

You did mention a few other drugs you are taking. Many drugs have unintended side effects.  It is always best to take the least number of drugs needed to restore your health.

I heard about a possible oversaturation of the estrogen receptor, when doses were to high. my endo says, thats not a thing at all, though she also claims that to high estrogen levels damage the receptor. its irritating for me and I dont trust her at all.

"Over saturation of the estrogen receptors"

I have never heard of this. I think your Endocrinologist is correct on the point.

However, whenever anyone loses trust in their doctor, it is time to find someone else. All health care is about choices. What someone else may desire might be totally wrong for you or me. You really need to find an Endocrinologist you have faith in.   

[HaleyVale]

Well, sadly everything started going downhill on my old regimen.
there must be a reason why my hrt not just lost any effect, but all I had slowly reversed and still reverses. I only take one additional med ( buprenorphine) and several doctors assured me it cant possibly be the reason therefore.

its well known that an overdose of estrogen has the adverse effect and damages the receptor over time. I had an accidental overdose of estrogen over quite a while and adjusting the dose, so I'm back in female ranges hasnt worked. also my blood levels are unusually high for my dosage.
what should i do know?

[Dena]

A theory I am playing around with from a few cases I have seen around the site. I suspect that with vey high estrogen levels, development is suppressed for the same reason that a pregnant woman with extremely high levels of estrogen isn't affected much by the high levels. From personal experience, development can occur with levels as low as 50pg/ml and I would guess an upper limit of around 200pg/ml which doctors normally target. I don't think the receptors are damaged but instead may just not respond at very high levels. Having your levels at a more normal range could restart the growth you're missing.

[GingerVicki]

Too much of anything is bad.

[Linde]

A theory I am playing around with from a few cases I have seen around the site. I suspect that with vey high estrogen levels, development is suppressed for the same reason that a pregnant woman with extremely high levels of estrogen isn't affected much by the high levels. From personal experience, development can occur with levels as low as 50pg/ml and I would guess an upper limit of around 200pg/ml which doctors normally target. I don't think the receptors are damaged but instead may just not respond at very high levels. Having your levels at a more normal range could restart the growth you're missing.

That is the reason my endo wants to keep me around 140 to 150.  This is the average for most natal women.

[HaleyVale]

So I just got bad luck and have to live trapped in a mans body forever? I'm really desperate. I cant live like this and all of what I described above isnt exaggerated in any means.
My levels are kinda ok for a while now, still everything is going rapidly downhill. my body odour is the newest change. I just smell masculine.
I have this female levels in all hormones, but still my body is virilizing. what I heard in previous posts is " oh this isnt possible. this is just about your perception. trust ypur doctor.." yes it is possible and it destroys my life every day a little more. I really need help, any idea what else could be wrong all the time. there must be a reason.

[Linde]

So I just got bad luck and have to live trapped in a mans body forever? I'm really desperate. I cant live like this and all of what I described above isnt exaggerated in any means.
My levels are kinda ok for a while now, still everything is going rapidly downhill. my body odour is the newest change. I just smell masculine.
I have this female levels in all hormones, but still my body is virilizing. what I heard in previous posts is " oh this isnt possible. this is just about your perception. trust ypur doctor.." yes it is possible and it destroys my life every day a little more. I really need help, any idea what else could be wrong all the time. there must be a reason.

If I would be you, and my current doctor is not addressing my concerns, I would be running as fast as i could to find a doc who listens to me!
There is a reason why your body reacts the way it does.  That reason has to be found and addressed.  You and your physician should be partners for he well being of your body!

I  wish you lots of luck, it is not always easy, some of the docs out there are simply jerks, and I say that as a medical professional.  You have jerks in any profession!
Hugs
Linde

[ChrissyRyan]

I would think that although there are norms, people will react differently to medical treatment because their body chemistries and health differ.  Perhaps equivalent dosage administration methods may not effectively be equivalent dosages over the same time frame between doses because we are all different, but it is likely close to being equivalent, at least in theory.

Can you and should you go back to the pill form?  If that worked, maybe if you went back to that form your results would improve.

I would keep talking with your physicians to optimize your treatment.  Other medicines you take likely impact some other medicines you take over time too.  I wish you the best results.

Chrissy

[Dena]

If your smelling masculine, that suggest that your testosterone levels are rising and should be tested. If you're not on a blocker, it may be needed if you estrogen dosage has been reduced.

[KayXo]

A theory I am playing around with from a few cases I have seen around the site. I suspect that with vey high estrogen levels, development is suppressed for the same reason that a pregnant woman with extremely high levels of estrogen isn't affected much by the high levels. From personal experience, development can occur with levels as low as 50pg/ml and I would guess an upper limit of around 200pg/ml which doctors normally target. I don't think the receptors are damaged but instead may just not respond at very high levels. Having your levels at a more normal range could restart the growth you're missing.

If very high levels of estrogen are not useful and do very little to nothing, then why does the body produce so much (up to 75,000 pg/ml) during pregnancy? There must be a reason. And the body does respond to such high levels because we see and observe tissues (i.e. liver, breasts, uterus, vascular system) responding to estrogen and behaving as expected if stimulated by estrogen. I, myself, had poor responses at lower levels under 200-300 and only above these levels, did experience something.

[JLT1]

Hey,

Over saturation is impossible.  It's saturated or it's not.  Excess estrogen is metabolized.

Pills lead to high levels followed by a logarithmic drop, the another pill with saturation and drop.  Cream gives steady levels with no high level but no low level. 

Recommend higher steady levels.....  Natal women have varying levels, you can google it , depending on the time of the month.  Normal range is a meaningless statement.



Jen

[HaleyVale]

Sorry, but I dont understand why I got the same response a few times, I already ruled out. I have very low testosterone levels and still have these problems.
also it started to go downhill when I was on pills. What worked good for me were injections, but they arent available anymore here in germany.

Also I sadly cant change my doctor anytime soon. I "run as fast as I can" but still I have to wait for many months..


Its common sense that to high estradiol levels are harmfull amd can damage the receptors, so they are avoided my most endocrinologists. also by mine.
Still I had skyhigh levels for a rather long time, which weren't diagnosed and addressed.

I think its a very valid question how other peoples experiences are and what they suggest. Its great your transition works well, but isnt it the meaning of a board to exchange such?
I'm not so naive, I'd blindly follow medical instructions of some stranger on the internet. but thanks for your warning 🙂

Maybe there are some people who know what else could be wrong, or how to behave after such a phase of overdose ( about 7 months)? just lowering the dose hasnt worked at all.

thank you

[josie76]

Well first, higher than usable levels of estradiol (17b) will be converted to estrone or estriol. Estrone can be stored in fatty tissues and converted back into estradiol by the body under some sort of regulation system. Estradiol has a short half life before conversion.

High levels of estrogen is likely including the estrone and estriol levels which have far lower receptor activation. However there is no way to "damage" cell receptors.

Spiro can also lower the effectiveness of estrogen but usually far less than it does to androgens. Spiro does however have a number of other effects on the body's Endo system.  Also in a situation where androgens are super low, Spiro can slightly activate androgen receptors.

So it could be multiple things. High levels of adreanal androgens can be converted into testosterone at the tissue level. Such as in the skin making more masculine hair growth. Spiro itseof can be activating androgen receptors throughout the body. Androgen receptor activation will suppress estrogen receptor effects in many parts of the body like the breasts. I have no idea about that other drug you are taking.