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How supportive were your parents when you transitioned?

Started by Jessica_Rose, January 05, 2024, 06:04:46 PM

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Jessica_Rose

I transitioned without telling my family, only my wife and daughters knew. Since we lived about 1000 miles away from the rest of my family, keeping the secret was easy. About a month after becoming Jessica, my wife and I drove down to visit my family and tell them the news. I told a niece first, then my sister-in-law. My sister-in-law was OK with it, but she and I were both certain my dad would blow a gasket. The next day I told a brother (husband of SIL). We met for lunch and worked out a plan to tell my parents. I was reasonably sure I would never see my parents again.

My plan came into play the next day, when my brother and his family had lunch with my parents. They delivered a letter to my parents, which explained what I had done. I asked them to call me if we were still welcome in their home. The waiting seemed to take forever, but eventually my SIL sent me a text stating they wanted us to visit.

The first thing my dad said to me was 'I like your boots'. That was much better than the greeting I had expected! My parents accepted me, although my mom blamed herself for the turn of events. My mom passed away about three years ago, but I don't think she ever really got to know me. My dad is still doing well, and other than occasionally historical references to <deadname> (which I don't correct), he seems to be fine with who I have become.

Love always -- Jessica Rose
Journal thread - Jessica's Rose Garden
National Coming Out Day video - Coming Out
GCS - GCS and BA w/Dr. Ley
GCS II - GCS II and FFS w/Dr. Ley
FFS II - Jaw and chin surgery w/Dr. Ley
Hair - Hair Restoration
23Mar2017 - HRT / 16Feb2018 - Full Time! / 21Feb2019 - GCS / 26July2019 - GCS II / 13Oct2020 - FFS II
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." - George Eliot
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Oldandcreaky

My mother banned me from her home for thirty years and refused to visit me. I maintained a relationship with my father, but he loved to gossip about me. Both parents' reactions were awful.

Sarah B

Supportive parent?  At the time?  Well none in fact!  However, hold your thoughts right there, there was absolutely none, that could be given even from any of my other family members.  If you have read any of my previous posts.  Then you will know that the following occurred and for those that have not come across what happened when I changed my life around and lived the life that I wanted to have. Here is what basically happened.

I left my family because I did not want to hurt the people around me, I did not want them to know what I was doing and most importantly and selfishly I left because, I was prepared to sacrifice all ties from friends and family at the cost of not ever seeing them ever again, even though it would hurt them no end, not knowing that I had gone from their lives.

Since I was far removed from my family 4,000km away, it was not until a couple of years after I had surgery, that I caught up with my mum and family, my father died when I was 15 years old.  So there was no support there.  I had a very supportive mum, and my mum would write to me and the card, birthday card, Christmas card or letter would often start of with "My dearest daughter" or "My darling daughter", why? My mum loved her children and a long time ago she said to me, if I had a daughter I would name her Sarah.  No, my real name is not Sarah, although I seriously did consider taking it as my first name and yes I do like the name Sarah very much.

If my memory serves me well, I first caught up with my mum in 1993, which was two years after I had my surgery or nearly five years since I last saw her.  I was doing contract work for a government department in Bundaberg, drawing bridges and designing roads.  I was staying at a local hotel and my mum was on her way to see her sister in Brisbane.

After meeting her at the bus terminal (coach), she put her arms around me and said, "I missed you so much", later in the same hotel room my mum said, "I thought you was going to look like a drag queen, but obviously not".  I cannot remember the exact words in regard to this.  That was so funny to hear that.  However, I believe, I put my mums perception of what her one and only daughter looked like to rest and in doing so made her proud of me.

One of the reasons why I left Susan's was, I returned to help my mum, who had several medical problems, long story short it was decided that I would be with her and she would not die alone.  One of the few things she said before she passed away and I can vividly see and hear her as she walked away from the dining table was, "you do not know, how much I love you", it was a nice thing to say at the time.  My mum passed away nearly a year and half ago, but writing down what she said to me brings uncontrollable tears to me, every time I read this passage.

So supportive parent yes and it came with unconditional love and acceptance.

Kindest regards to one and all
Sarah B
PS Rest in Peace mum.  I love you too.
PSS I'm all right, but mascara is not.
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
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Jessica_Rose

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on January 05, 2024, 09:43:54 PMMy mother banned me from her home for thirty years and refused to visit me. I maintained a relationship with my father, but he loved to gossip about me. Both parents' reactions were awful.

That's terrible, O&C! Unfortunately, your experience is probably fairly common. I would like to think this kind of response is dwindling as the next generation comes along, but I know we're still a very long way from unconditional love. I'm glad you found the strength to be yourself.

Love always -- Jess
Journal thread - Jessica's Rose Garden
National Coming Out Day video - Coming Out
GCS - GCS and BA w/Dr. Ley
GCS II - GCS II and FFS w/Dr. Ley
FFS II - Jaw and chin surgery w/Dr. Ley
Hair - Hair Restoration
23Mar2017 - HRT / 16Feb2018 - Full Time! / 21Feb2019 - GCS / 26July2019 - GCS II / 13Oct2020 - FFS II
"It is never too late to be what you might have been." - George Eliot
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Devlyn

My father had already passed, and like you Jessica, I was thousands of miles away from my mother. We had a strained relationship for unrelated reasons, and weren't really in communication. When I got a message from my sister that my mother was in hospice, I had to come out to my sisters. After some discussion, we all decided that coming out to my born again mom while she was dying might not be to anyone's benefit. So she passed without me finding out if she would have accepted me (doubtful).

I have a really funny story about her from after she died, but that's probably best left to another subforum.  ;)

Hugs, Devlyn
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Oldandcreaky

Thanks, Jess.

Quote from: Jessica_Rose on January 06, 2024, 06:08:39 AMUnfortunately, your experience is probably fairly common. I would like to think this kind of response is dwindling as the next generation comes along, but I know we're still a very long way from unconditional love.

Yeah, I think it's pretty common. The sad thing is that my mother missed out on the good and the bad. A parent's duty is to be there for the bad and she failed at that and a parent's reward is to be there for the good and there was plenty of good and she passed on that. She missed my adulthood, the prime of my life, and so she knows me far less than my friends, who were there. She wouldn't even call me, but I called her, again and again and again, literally thousands of times.

My story is Danielle's story. Yeah, it's a sadly common story.

Thanks again for your compassion, Jess. You're a good egg.
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Jenn104

I am a late in life transitioner, my story is a little better.

Dad passed a decade ago, this month. He didn't know. We were not close and its not a big deal.

Mom was 85 when I told her. HRT and transition was still in my future. I took a day from work and sat her down with something like 6 pages of notes. Literally (and in hindsight a little comically). I walked her through a whole pile of things in my childhood that screamed "dysphoria". Around half way through she interupted-- "are you telling me you're err trans ummm gender? is that the word?"  Her take was to wish me happiness. She's been supportive as possible in her late 80s.

She is old enough she struggles with using my dead name. She is a lot more comfortable with my pre-voice therapy voice. I am cognizant of so many stories like the ones above, I let it pass. She birthed me, she gave me a roof and a bed when I was booted from my house, she tries hard. Deadnaming is nothing.

~Jenn
"I want to be remembered as a woman ... who dared to be a catalyst of change."
                 - Shirley Chisolm

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Sarah B

Thank you so much Jessica_Rose for the title of this thread.  It brought back so many beautiful memories of me and my mum.

Best Wishes
Sarah B

Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story

Sarah B

I was going through some personal papers and I came across some photos with negatives.  In the bunch of photos there was one of me and my mum.  I did not know this photo existed and of course seeing it brought me to tears (mum has passed away) it has become one of my favorites instantly.  It shows the love between us.



Like mother like daughter.

Hugs
Sarah B

Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
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Mariah

My mom was supportive and well my father was long since deceased at the time. My mom though was a Huge help and benefit. Hugs
Mariah
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me.
[email]mariah@susans.org[/email]
I am also spouse of a transgender person.
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D'Amalie

You'll never know unless you ask, eh? 

I kept schtum to my parents as a courtesy to them and as conflict and rejection avoidance strategy.  I'm sure they knew somewhat, yet they never directly brought the subject to conversation. My Dad probably would be tolerant since that was his nature, but I'll never know since he passed away at 85 years old last year, I've come out as much as is likely for the rest of my days.

Considering that it's a bit of a given situation with both my ears pierced with femme style earrings and hair style, expectations were someone would mention it, no?  On an occasion only a very few years ago Mom noticed my diamond stud earrings, complimenting them and admiring the 1.0mm 14kt gold neck chain I wore.  She soon after presented me with an antique diamond and platinum heart pendant for my chain!  Very, very surprised I thanked her with gentle words and a hug.  They never asked gender determination related questions and I certainly wasn't obligated to volunteer a story by the way of justification.  So in their own way they accepted and continued loving the child.

<<This is from a post yesterday>>
Here is a bit of entertainment from personal experience.  As a general rule I tend to pack light, washing as needed, avoiding packing soiled garments whenever possible.  On a slightly extended visit with my parents at their home, two or three years ago.  I carefully hand washed my panties, surreptitiously hanging them to dry on the line where Mom would put her handwashing.  Hanging them on the far end where I hoped they'd not be really noticed, but secretly wishing perhaps to generate a bit of curiosity as to why I was washing women's undies when my darling wife wasn't with me that trip.  My scheming including that since my older stepsister was visiting as well, there was the chance Mom would think the garment was hers and my sister would think perhaps they were Mom's, thus I was covered.  Or so went my thought process.  I wasn't so sneaky, later that afternoon Mom reminded me to not forget them when I packed to go home.  On another visit just a month or so later I had washed a days' worth of a load in the washing machine.  Including bra and panties in a lingerie bag on handwash cycle.  Mom got to the machine when the cycle finished before I did and processed the batch into the dryer or on the line as needed.  She took the time to somewhat privately, away from Dad's ears anyway, to remind me not to put my bras in the dryer as it would reduce their shape, structure, support and usable life.  She also complimented my style sense in choice of garments, noting I preferred matched sets in my intimates.  That was an intimate, private conversation, simple in nature, yet very, very affirming and comforting to me. 
One shouldn't open the book of another's life and jump in the middle.  I am a woman, I'm a mystery.  I still see and hear who I used to be, who I am, who I'm gonna be. - Richelle
"Where you'd learn do to that, miss?" "Just do it, that's all; ... I got natural talent." "I'll say you do, at that." - Firefly

KathyLauren

My parents had both died by the time I figured out who I really was, so they never got a chance to meet the real me.  That makes me a bit sad.  I would rather have risked telling them and taking a chance that they might reject me.  They might have accepted me.

I think my mother might not have been surprised.  She would have gone through the motions of accepting me, even if she didn't in her heart.  She was that way with my brother, who is gay.  Or she may have, like me, retroactively recognized the signs from when I was much younger.  She always wanted a daughter and was disappointed that she had three sons (or so she thought).  She might have been happy for me. 

My father would have brushed it off.  "Oh, I'm not interested in that stuff," he would have said.  He wouldn't have been opposed to my transition, but he wouldn't have supported it either.

I'll never know for sure.

My older brother is supportive.  I wasn't at all sure how my younger brother would take it, but he has been at least tolerant, or perhaps accepting.

That is all the family I have.  There are a couple of cousins in Germany, one of whom I met 30+ years ago.  I don't know them.  I had a cousin in Australia that I only found out about late in life.  He passed away a few years ago, but I am still in touch with his wife, and she is accepting.
2015-07-04 Awakening; 2015-11-15 Out to self; 2016-06-22 Out to wife; 2016-10-27 First time presenting in public; 2017-01-20 Started HRT!!; 2017-04-20 Out publicly; 2017-07-10 Legal name change; 2019-02-15 Approval for GRS; 2019-08-02 Official gender change; 2020-03-11 GRS; 2020-09-17 New birth certificate
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D'Amalie

Oh the memories!  My parents weren't the first to know. Out to my wife as cross dresser first.  Of course it was hard for her to miss subtle wardrobe shifts, which were tolerated if not approved of, by the by. 

Now on to answer and address where I see the thread question is really applicable to my world.  I had a wonderful Aunt (father's sister, both still alive then) with whom I had the most intimate and lengthy chat sessions, both sitting at her house, on day trips by train or car, or on the telephone.  Early on I saw her rarely, I was in Europe mostly and she in N. America, but when I did see her she was like the fairy godmother in the best stories.  Loving, kind, sweet and quietly resistant to the coarser behaviors evident in so many of our worldly interactions.  She was a known force of goodness.  Those visits were the standard to which I based all judgements of true love.  Not romantic love, but the way to treat people.  Not syrupy and insincere, but tolerant, forgiving and uncritical.  I wished I could be her then and I still do to this day.  As a young adult and later as a parent, her knowledge, wisdom and grace were stirling examples of how to do business as a human being in this crazy world of ours.

Back to the plot.  Whilst my daughter was at dance (13 years of ballet) we'd chat of anything and everything, including spiritual realities, fantasy, history, science fiction, music, raising children, dealing with adversity, and the big one, SELF CONFIDENCE with self acceptance.  Instrumental from my early years (8 years old) was her gift of a handhold on my sanity.  Although hidden from most of the world, my individualism and survival was grounded on her demonstration of unequivocal love.  She shaped and built a core of self in me that kept me from collapse.  I don't dwell on my stepmother's abusiveness greatly, but a few words from Aunt H went a long way toward keeping hurt and anger from consuming my self identity.  Cowering and silent around my stepmother, I blossomed around Auntie H.

Of course my Father loved me in his way, yet Aunt H was the first who I felt loved me unreservedly.  On the day of reveal, its no surprise that she "knew" already and said "I waited for you to tell me."  I immediately dissolved to tears and sobbingly absorbed some of the best pragmatic guidance of my life.  That's enough for now.   Must leave some for another day.

One shouldn't open the book of another's life and jump in the middle.  I am a woman, I'm a mystery.  I still see and hear who I used to be, who I am, who I'm gonna be. - Richelle
"Where you'd learn do to that, miss?" "Just do it, that's all; ... I got natural talent." "I'll say you do, at that." - Firefly
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SashaXtina

This is such a great question and it's great to read the variety of responses so far!  :)

In terms of myself, it was quite the journey ... and it was scary as hell. I grew up in a bubble, raised by evangelical Christian parents. I also had two half-sisters (much older than I am, from my father's side (I'm my mom's only child), so I spent time with them, but never lived with them). Like many of us, I knew something was not right when I was quite young (around 5 or so), so since I was raised to believe that who I am would send me straight to hell, I prayed every night that I wouldn't wake up the next morning or that I'd wake up to an entirely different reality. Of course, I knew that was not how it worked, but what else could I do at the time?

When I was 16, I confided in my younger half-sister that I felt that I was born in the wrong body and attracted to men (I was assigned male at birth). Instead of support, she instantly flipped out and informed my family. I was then forced into years of "Christian counseling" (essentially conversion therapy), subjected to at least 30 exorcisms (I lost count), and was generally despised and treated like crap. I hated myself. I thought I'd go to hell for who I am even though I couldn't help it. But nothing ever worked, no "treatment," no "exorcism," nothing. Not even a tiny bit.

Finally, after leaving home for college, during my second semester as a freshman in February 2003 (and after an extremely traumatic event — more on that in another post), I thought long and hard about how to approach things. For me, at that point, I was at my most distraught: TW either I would end my life or become who I truly am. Thankfully, I decided on the latter! However, I used a two-pronged approach since I absolutely knew that my family would entirely reject me if they knew I was a woman AND was attracted to men. So, I took my first step by coming out as a "gay man." I knew that I wasn't one, but I did know that it was entirely acceptable to wear makeup and feminize your appearance in the gay community back then, so that's immediately what I did. As my parents (not my half-sisters, mind you, haha) came to terms with my attraction to men, I continued to feminize myself for several years. Eventually, in April 2005, I told all of my friends that I was a transwoman. They all looked at me like, "Duh! We already knew that!" Haha

Then, the second prong came and I did what I considered to be the scariest thing: on Christmas Day of 2005, I finally came out to my parents FULLY as a transwoman (who's attracted to men, but they knew that already). It turned out to be the best Christmas present of my life as they both said, "Oh, we already figured that out." !!! Of course, they didn't necessarily accept it fully, and certainly weren't thrilled about it, but they were as supportive and loving as they could be despite their religious drawbacks. Now, almost two decades later, my mother fully accepts me and loves me as I am. And she's STILL an evangelical Christian! Even though my half-sisters still don't accept me (it's truly absurd), before passing away, my maternal grandma gave me her blessing. I cried for days.

At this point, many years later, my stepfather has passed away (he supported me as much as he could and my biological dad passed when I was 8, so that was never an issue) and I now live with my mother and am her full-time caretaker as she has developed cancer. We love each other so much and while she still struggles at times, I do my best to educate her and help her understand the nuances of things. We even watch Drag Race together and she loves it! She always uses my correct name, Sasha, and never misgenders me. Things have come full circle with her and I couldn't be more grateful. We love each other unconditionally.

After all the trauma (and other traumas following it after coming out), finally came the healing. It's still continuing, but at least it's happening and I couldn't be happier. There is hope out there. If you are struggling yourself, please know that you can always have a chosen family if your own is not open-minded enough to comprehend. Stay strong. Hang in there. You are loved for who you are even if you don't think you are right now. You are WORTHWHILE. You are GOOD ENOUGH. You are BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING.

Love and hugs to everyone. I am so grateful for this community! <3

Sarah B

#14
Hi Sasha

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMThis is such a great question and it's great to read the variety of responses so far!  :)

Great questions comes great answers and from great answers comes great knowledge.  Reading those stories is one way to learn about people.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMIn terms of myself, it was quite the journey ... and it was scary as hell. I grew up in a bubble, raised by evangelical Christian parents. I also had two half-sisters (much older than I am, from my father's side (I'm my mom's only child), so I spent time with them, but never lived with them). Like many of us, I knew something was not right when I was quite young (around 5 or so), so since I was raised to believe that who I am would send me straight to hell, I prayed every night that I wouldn't wake up the next morning or that I'd wake up to an entirely different reality. Of course, I knew that was not how it worked, but what else could I do at the time?

Another story that tells us, we know who we are, around the age of 5, a little less or a little more.  I know a similar reality, wanting breasts at puberty and I know its not going to happen.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMWhen I was 16, I confided in my younger half-sister that I felt that I was born in the wrong body and attracted to men (I was assigned male at birth). Instead of support, she instantly flipped out and informed my family. I was then forced into years of "Christian counseling" (essentially conversion therapy), subjected to at least 30 exorcisms (I lost count), and was generally despised and treated like crap. I hated myself. I thought I'd go to hell for who I am even though I couldn't help it. But nothing ever worked, no "treatment," no "exorcism," nothing. Not even a tiny bit.

At least you where brave to come out.  Unfortunately it backfired badly on you.  Literally you were in the wrong place and time and you suffered mental abuse as a result.

You would think that the people would learn that conversion therapy has not, does not and will never work.  Take Electroconvulsive therapy, that never worked.

You are not going to hell, not if I can help it.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMFinally, after leaving home for college, during my second semester as a freshman in February 2003 (and after an extremely traumatic event — more on that in another post), I thought long and hard about how to approach things. For me, at that point, I was at my most distraught: TW either I would end my life or become who I truly am. Thankfully, I decided on the latter! However, I used a two-pronged approach since I absolutely knew that my family would entirely reject me if they knew I was a woman AND was attracted to men. So, I took my first step by coming out as a "gay man." I knew that I wasn't one, but I did know that it was entirely acceptable to wear makeup and feminize your appearance in the gay community back then, so that's immediately what I did. As my parents (not my half-sisters, mind you, haha) came to terms with my attraction to men, I continued to feminize myself for several years. Eventually, in April 2005, I told all of my friends that I was a transwoman. They all looked at me like, "Duh! We already knew that!" Haha

It's agonizing how you suffered, even at college?  I'm happy to know you decided to live and by doing so you have achieved so much.  I would have thought you would be free of your parents to become who you want to be by going to college.  I have read a couple of similar stories and every one is waiting for you to tell them.  How ironic.  To me you are a female.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMThen, the second prong came and I did what I considered to be the scariest thing: on Christmas Day of 2005, I finally came out to my parents FULLY as a transwoman (who's attracted to men, but they knew that already). It turned out to be the best Christmas present of my life as they both said, "Oh, we already figured that out." !!! Of course, they didn't necessarily accept it fully, and certainly weren't thrilled about it, but they were as supportive and loving as they could be despite their religious drawbacks. Now, almost two decades later, my mother fully accepts me and loves me as I am. And she's STILL an evangelical Christian! Even though my half-sisters still don't accept me (it's truly absurd), before passing away, my maternal grandma gave me her blessing. I cried for days.

It's wonderful that they finally accept you for who you are, people change  and  when it happens like you have described, your parents and friends can be given the respect that they deserve.  You can forgive, if you want, but do not forget.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMAt this point, many years later, my stepfather has passed away (he supported me as much as he could and my biological dad passed when I was 8, so that was never an issue) and I now live with my mother and am her full-time caretaker as she has developed cancer. We love each other so much and while she still struggles at times, I do my best to educate her and help her understand the nuances of things. We even watch Drag Race together and she loves it! She always uses my correct name, Sasha, and never misgenders me. Things have come full circle with her and I couldn't be more grateful. We love each other unconditionally.

We have similar stories and my family as you may know accepted me fully when they found out about me. I looked after mum for 10 years she passed away 18 months ago and when I drive around where I live, all I see is memories of me and my mum.  Some of the most important people in my family that were close to me have passed on and so it's time for me to move on and that's what I doing at the present.

Quote from: SashaXtina on January 31, 2024, 09:06:06 PMAfter all the trauma (and other traumas following it after coming out), finally came the healing. It's still continuing, but at least it's happening and I couldn't be happier. There is hope out there. If you are struggling yourself, please know that you can always have a chosen family if your own is not open-minded enough to comprehend. Stay strong. Hang in there. You are loved for who you are even if you don't think you are right now. You are WORTHWHILE. You are GOOD ENOUGH. You are BEAUTIFUL AND AMAZING.

Love and hugs to everyone. I am so grateful for this community! <3

The journey you have traveled, shows that you are a brave and courageous woman. Remember you need to look after yourself first.  Then you will be able care for the people you love the most.

Love and hugs
Sarah B

Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
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JaneL

Well given that they are quite conservative born again Christians and given that they are quiet old so have found dealing with the change difficult.

I think they have actually been pretty good.

I told my brother 1st.

He came with me as moral support when I told them.

I wrote them a letter explaining what we were there for and then my brother and I went for a long walk.

When we came back they were shocked, ny Dad kept asking me what I had to gain. (Absolutely nothing apart from happiness)

But aside from that they are accepting. More than anything I think they were worried about losing contact with their grandkids

But now they call me by my name and pronouns. ( they fluff it sometimes but I think that is ok as they correct themselves) I'm actually building a bit of a mother daughter relationship with my mum.

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Pink_Prince

It was kinda of weird, as my father was completely accepting, he was the one I was most worried about, I was sure he was going to kick me out, but he didn't care.

My mother, the one who I was so sure that she would accept me, we got into screaming fights and arguments about it, she actually outed me to my dad. Of course, it's been five years, so she's educated herself and now she's accepted me, but she was horrible to me at first. It's taken a long time, but I have forgiven her, she didn't understand anything at the time and was sure I was going to be sent to hell (for some reason).
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Victoria L.

When I transitioned, it was with full parental support. However, I have to clarify that there were many, many years of me knowing I was trans and not being able to do anything about it before the transition and in those many, long, insufferable years, I didn't have parental support.

I actually made a topic here when the turnaround begin to happen and luckily it was in the time right before the loss of posts that happened earlier this year.

https://www.susans.org/index.php/topic,244668

I'm not sure what turned things around. I think it's because I was at a point where I just couldn't take it anymore and the need overrode my cowardice, and I had a clear idea of how I wanted to proceed, whereas with past coming outs, I didn't. I mean I could have told you back in 2009 and before that I wanted to be on hormones and all of that, but I couldn't have expressed it to my mom like I did in 2019.

All of those years of unacceptance are hurtful, but things have really turned around. My parents are VERY supporting now and everything is happy between us.
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Senkusha

Totally none.  In fact, my father wouldn't even speak to me.  I found out that he died by doing a google search on his name and stumbled across his obituary.  My stepmother, yeah, we're not going to get into that toxic ball of crap.
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