How do we find the balance between respecting autonomy in gender identity?

[SoupSarah]

In contemporary discussions surrounding gender identity, the questions arise: where, how and should we, draw the line between recognizing and respecting individuals' autonomy to self-determine their gender, and navigating the broader societal, legal, and cultural frameworks that influence our understanding of identity?

On one hand, there's an emphasis on individual autonomy and the right to define one's gender based on internal feelings and experiences outside their assigned sex at birth. This perspective underscores the importance of human rights and personal dignity, advocating for inclusive environments where individuals feel validated and respected in their self-identified gender identities.

Conversely, societal norms, legal systems, and cultural traditions often operate within more rigid constructs of gender. This can impact legal rights, access to healthcare, and social acceptance. The issues are in reconciling these constructs with the diverse and subtle ways people experience gender, which can be fluid, non-binary, or outside traditional categories of male and female. This involves us grappling with questions of inclusivity, education, and policy-making.

Of course, there is more than one way to skin a cat and one other way is to eradicate gender completely.. start with removal of gender from all ID including birth certificates. However, you then get no gender exclusive places (crisis centres, prisons, etc) you get no 'women's sport' - it causes lots of problems.

So, serious question, how do we create spaces that honour the complexity of gender while ensuring equity and perceived safety for all individuals? How can we challenge and possibly evolve existing norms and structures to better reflect the lived realities of gender diverse communities?

The drawing of lines, gatekeeping or boundaries.. whatever you wish to describe it as, obviously has a spectrum of possibilities.. From nothing at all and allowing an individual to decide, minute by minute, what gender they are and to 'grant' them the rights bestowed by that decision. To the stoic, no compromise of no-one can change their gender from that assigned at birth.

Both scenarios, even though at extremes, in my opinion present problems and challenges.. if you agree with that statement then you agree that there is a place to draw a line. You, unfortunately then are an advocate for gate-keeping.. scary thought!

So, whilst I throw this open to hear what other people think on this.. I would also like you to postulate what an 'ideal scenario' would be.

[Lori Dee]

The problem, as I see it, is that "society" has not yet learned that there is any difference between "sex" and "gender". It is not gender that is assigned at birth but sex. This is based wholly upon examination of the infant's genitals. The infant has yet to decide what its gender might be.

There are valid reasons for identifying a person's sex. In a healthcare environment, a variety of health conditions are exclusive (or nearly so) to a particular sex. Most men are not diagnosed with uterine cancer. Most women are not diagnosed with BPH.

Since gender is a perception of ourselves it exists wholly within the realm of mental health. This is the reason that a Mental Health professional is the one usually called upon for a diagnosis of Gender Dysphoria. Gender can exist anywhere along a spectrum, or even be fluid and changing at any given time.

Sex is less mental and more biological, and there are medical conditions that can indicate male, female, both, or neither. It can be through examination of the individual's anatomy or tests such as for DNA. Even then the results are not either/or because there are the possibilities of X, XX, XY, XXY, and so forth. Then there are conditions such as androgen insensitivity syndrome which can throw a wrench into the whole mess.

In Nature, both sex and gender can exist along a spectrum independent of each other. Until the "powers that be" become educated enough to understand the differences, laws, policies, and regulations will continue to force outdated and incorrect perceptions upon the general public. It is up to us to educate others and that is why resources like Susan's Place are so valuable. Those who are willing to learn have a place to get accurate information.

Sadly, those with closed minds have no desire to learn anything they disagree with.

[darksou]

I'm not entirely sure if my response will be relevant to you because I didn't fully understand your post, OP, but I will give my honest opinion regarding gender in society, on how an ideal scenario would work for me. Or rather, what could be realistically achieved, in my opinion. Meaning, sexism/homophobia/transphobia/intersexism still being a thing many people face.

As a nonbinary person, I have this wish that people like me are recognized as existing and have legal rights just like everyone else. I'm brazilian, so I will mention how that's an issue in my specific scenario. Here, in Brazil, we speak Portuguese and it happens to be an extremely gendered language. People, things, animals and everything else you can imagine is either a "he" or a "she". There's no "they" that is officially recognized in my native language and there are many discussions about whether our "they" should be recognized. People in power tried to ban the usage of neutral language as an act of transphobia disguised as concerns of destruction of Portuguese as a language.

One of the things that would have to change in order to have a more inclusive society here would be the normalization of neutral ways to refer to other people, especially when they are nonbinary or you don't know their gender yet. This is a thing that already happens in English, but not in Portuguese. Nonbinary people who only feel comfortable when they are being referred to with "they" and/or are dysphoric about being referred to as she or he deal with a lot of issues. Sometimes internally, very often externally since people refuse to recognize their gender identity (or lack of it).

Another thing that personally bothers me are the bathrooms. I have been using exclusively the men's restrooms because it feels more comfortable to me, despite my fears of facing transphobia. The fact is that I'm much more likely to be kicked out of the women's restroom than otherwise thanks to testosterone and my visible masculinity, but I'd rather use a neutral option (legally speaking, we are allowed to use either the women's or men's, according to our own personal comfort/safety). Unfortunately, even the trans people that can be considered influential in Brazil rarely seen to recognize our need to be allowed a bathroom for us. This is probably because trans women and trans men don't want to be segregated from womanhood/manhood. Still, it is my opinion that they must be allowed to use women and men's restrooms, while nonbinary people who are divorced from either get to use the one that aligns best with them.

Now, about women's safe spaces... Pretty sure trans women and some nonbinary people would fit there. One thing that many people ignore is that some nonbinary people are uncomfortable being included with women (my case, since I happen to not be a woman), while also recognizing that some nonbinary people experience womanhood and would want to be included.

I don't know how it would work for sports considering nonbinary people are very varied, so I won't talk about that aspect of gender on this post.

We also need some legal systems to be updated to include nonbinary people, especially now that some countries allows us to change our sex/gender to nonbinary. It is possible here in Brazil, but I know cases in which they had legal issues that makes me wonder if changing my sex/gender to nonbinary would be worth it. I'm fine being considered male, despite it not being accurate to who I am.

This is the closest that I can come up to an ideal scenario. I didn't mention gatekeeping because I don't believe this is necessary, at least not in the specific ones I could think of.

[Lori Dee]

@darksou

Thank you for contributing your perspective. Very often we get caught up in the trans-men, trans-women, or intersex discussions and we don't often hear from those in the "neither" category. I know we have a few members here like yourself, but too often we don't get the opportunity to see things from their point of view.

Recently, we had a member who conducted a survey on the subject of the effect gendered languages might have on us. I think that the survey might be finished now. We haven't heard back from them on the results yet, so I don't know for certain.

[SoupSarah]

I'm not entirely sure if my response will be relevant to you because I didn't fully understand your post, OP, but I will give my honest opinion regarding gender in society, on how an ideal scenario would work for me. Or rather, what could be realistically achieved, in my opinion. Meaning, sexism/homophobia/transphobia/intersexism still being a thing many people face.

Wow, for someone who says they 'didn't fully understand the post'.. you certainly made an amazing and informative response. I learnt a lot about your society and what you face and, as English is not your native language, I am doubly impressed with your response.
I can speak conversational French and Spanish, albeit broken - enough to get by.. and both of those languages construct things gendered - I remember my French teacher telling me 'You just learn what is masculine and feminine'.. which is not very helpful. So, I do in a small way understand what you are talking about from a practical sense. However, it is the way these languages are constructed and that seems a bit of a bigger battle to change than anything else. It is useful to remember this though as we witter away in our colloquial non-gendered English tongue that there are other parts of the world that are facing a lot more than just simple mis-gendering in their language.

There is a solution to a lot of the 'bathroom' issues and that is simply make all bathrooms single occupant. Then they can cater for anyone, any gender and any body shape or disability. I think their used to be an idea that Men's restrooms could be smaller as they used toilets less and urinals take up less room.. but, all I remember is urinals are smelly and gross and it would be no big loss to redesign bathrooms to be neutral.

The sport issue should not be one in all honesty.. you see we seem to have done an amazing job in creating sporting activities and competitions for disabled people. I actually prefer to watch the para-olympics than the real thing. If you look how they categorise and select people to compete, it is very detailed. Take 'Blind Hockey' for instance, if I remember correctly, there are 3 categories specified by the IBSF - There is no reason why such biological categories could not be made to make things fair in general sports, even in some sports creating other competitions than male or female. It works beautifully for the disabled athletes and no-one feels like they are competing against something unfair or unjust.

Well, anyway, thanks again for your enlightening response. Much appreciated @darksou .