The straw that broke the camel's back.

[Sephirah]

In fact, to tell me that I did have a choice is hurtful. I lost my home, family and career.. that was not because I was some selfish idiot that wanted to pursue my outlandish fetishes.. it was because if I did not do this, I would be dead.

That isn't what I was suggesting at all, Sarah. I think I know you well enough to know you're the antithesis of that. And exactly what I meant when I said the very idea gets weaponised by people who want to push that line of thinking. But you're right, it is largely semantics. And probably something best left alone. I am deeply sorry if you found it hurtful. That is never, ever my intent. Never. Same to you, Allie. I respect the way you both feel and can understand your point of view.

*big hugs* To both of you.

[Sephirah]

No. I have to say this.

Fifteen years ago, about a year after I joined this site... I was viciously attacked and hospitalised for just over a year. I lost the use of my legs. Half of my body. Because I was not careful enough to hide being here. And my brother found out. It shamed him. Humiliated him. Enraged him.

He arranged for a bunch of thugs to attack me literally outside my home. Beat me to within an inch of my life. Literally. Because he is just that evil and cared only about how I would make him look.

I was in a coma for two weeks. And it took me about eighteen months to have some semblance of a normal life. But even then, not what you all consider normal.

During that time, I tried to end my life on three separate occasions. Because everything I wanted had been taken away from me. You cannot begin to understand the hate, resentment, sheer negative emotions I went through for close to three years. I am so destroyed that I cannot transition. No doctor will dare go near me. And believe me I have tried everything. I have had close to thirty operations just to keep me alive. When I should have, by all rights, been dead ten years ago. I have had learned people tell me I should not be alive. I believe the only reason I am is because I can contribute to other people. To help other people. Whatever you have been through, you are in a place where you can, if not be happy, at least be at peace. Imagine if you could not do that. Imagine how you would try to cope with that. And then you'd have maybe 1/10th of an idea. You are not the only people with a monopoly on hurt. I just don't express it as much as you do.

I chose to be here. Even if I didn't want to be here. And trust me... 40% of the time, I do not want to be here. That choice keeps me going. It keeps me human. When 4 out of every 7 days of the week I could easily just end it all.

Sorry. I don't often get emotional. But if there's one thing I've learned it's that you do not easily choose to die.

[Lori Dee]

@Sephirah

"Here is a test to find whether your mission on Earth is finished: If you're alive it isn't."
― Richard Bach, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah


In other words, we ain't done with you yet. 

[Sephirah]

@Sephirah

"Here is a test to find whether your mission on Earth is finished: If you're alive it isn't."
― Richard Bach, Illusions: The Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah


In other words, we ain't done with you yet. 

Thank you. Sincerely, thank you. That's honestly what keeps me going most of the time.

[Oldandcreaky]

I feel badly not replying more promptly. Your story is horrifying, Sepharih, and overwhelms me. It's the worst.

Betrayal. Paralysis. Depression. Brutality. Suffering that goes on and on. And being denied living in a body that fits your brain.

And still, you're kind to so many. I kneel and bow my head before you.

[barbie]

An independent movie featuring me will be opened here in November. The director is a woman who approached me several years ago to make the movie. The half of story is about me, but the other half is about her brother who is the same age as me.

She could not reach or hear from her brother during the past 20 years. He was probably transgender, but was beaten and bullied by his elder brothers since childhood for his weird behaviors, for example, obsession with women's clothes. His parents did not actively stop the violence. And the director herself sided with the elder brothers, because she knew nothing about gender identity and transsexualism at that time, 40 or 50 years ago when even homosexualism was not well known.

Her brother lived in France when she met him for the last time. He did not attend the funerals of his father and mother. He probably wished to be forgotten by his family, or hated all of them so much.

The director now can understand what all violences meant for her brother. She feels guilty, and the last words of the movie is "I am sorry". That was why she wanted to produce a movie featuring me.

I heard that they are making the English subtitles of the movie. I will let you know once the movie is available in YouTube.

barbie~~

[Sephirah]

I feel badly not replying more promptly. Your story is horrifying, Sepharih, and overwhelms me. It's the worst.

Betrayal. Paralysis. Depression. Brutality. Suffering that goes on and on. And being denied living in a body that fits your brain.

And still, you're kind to so many. I kneel and bow my head before you.

I feel bad for saying anything honestly. Because it's all relative. I have read hundreds of stories of people here, for whom, they have literally climbed Mount Everest. Gone through so much that I don't think I could cope with, and come down the better for it. Pain is relative. When something hurts, it hurts. Doesn't matter what it is, where it comes from, it affects us the same way. All that matters is how you deal with it. And how you use that experience. How it shapes the way you see the world.

Thank you, sweetie, but honestly I should not have put that out there. I am okay. Okay? I feel very awkward when stuff is about me. We all go through things that shape us. We all feel... everything. And everyone's experience matters. <3

I think my life probably... it's about being kind to others. It's about lifting people up. It gives me purpose. A sense of meaning. And I get to live vicariously through seeing other people smile. If I did not have that, I think I probably would not be here today. Someone very wise once told me, way back when I was at the darkest time in my life and thought I had no reason to even be here anymore... "Look, life isn't all about you. It isn't all about what you do for yourself. The biggest legacy we can leave in this world is how we shape the world around us. How we impact those around us. That's the only thing you will be remembered for."

She was right. And it's why I am how I am. As Maya Angelou once said: "People will forget what you said, forget what you did, but they will never forget how you made them feel."

An independent movie featuring me will be opened here in November. The director is a woman who approached me several years ago to make the movie. The half of story is about me, but the other half is about her brother who is the same age as me.

She could not reach or hear from her brother during the past 20 years. He was probably transgender, but was beaten and bullied by his elder brothers since childhood for his weird behaviors, for example, obsession with women's clothes. His parents did not actively stop the violence. And the director herself sided with the elder brothers, because she knew nothing about gender identity and transsexualism at that time, 40 or 50 years ago when even homosexualism was not well known.

Her brother lived in France when she met him for the last time. He did not attend the funerals of his father and mother. He probably wished to be forgotten by his family, or hated all of them so much.

The director now can understand what all violences meant for her brother. She feels guilty, and the last words of the movie is "I am sorry". That was why she wanted to produce a movie featuring me.

I heard that they are making the English subtitles of the movie. I will let you know once the movie is available in YouTube.

barbie~~

Please do, Barbie. I think I would be very interested in this.

[Oldandcreaky]

I think my life probably... it's about being kind to others. It's about lifting people up.

Well, you sure do that.

It gives me purpose.

Its profound purpose.

Please do, Barbie. I think I would be very interested in this.

Me too.

I feel bad for saying anything honestly.

Don't.

Please.

[NikkiM]

I still remember what my dad said to me to this day, I would rather have a much happier daughter than a dead son. My dad took it the hardest, he was given 4 sons and I told him he has 3 still. Said I was right getting a daughter that is much happier. We have a great relationship to this day still

[Sarah B]

Hi Everyone

Choice, that is the question and after some serious consideration on the issue, I have decide to post the following:

I never had Gender Dysphoria or Body Dysphoria, yet I changed my life around.  There was no need for hormones or surgery, strange that.  Yet here I am 35 years on and living my life the way I want too.  I was never faced with the stark reality of staying the way I was or moving forward with my life.  So accordingly I never had a choice. 

The day I changed my name, did I consider should I, or should I not?  No, I just changed my name.  When I took my hormones for the first time, did I consider should I, or should I not?  No, I did not and I just took them.  When I had surgery, did I consider should I, or should I not?  No I did not and I just went ahead with surgery.  So again I never had a choice to make.

However, all of the above is a fallacy.  Why?  Behind every statement, there was a predicated assumption of wanting or longing to be a female, being hardwired in my personality, so to speak.  Hence every action I took was predicated on me becoming a female.  In other words I had a choice without realizing that I did.

SoupSarah, I'm sorry that you feel hurt, when I say you had a choice.  I don't like hurting people, it's not in my intention or nature to do so.  However, my thinking is completely different from yours on this issue and to me, unfortunately one always has a choice, it's not that I believe that, it's what I know.  Every choice has a consequence.  Whether it is fair or not, good or bad, is not the point.  Even a person who feels like they did not have a choice, does not mean they actually did not.

You chose to transition over dying and as a consequence you lost everything.  Even in Allie's case, even given that she is 'deeply programmed to protect her family".  Allie chose family over death and as a consequence ended up being less than happy than she was previously.

In the case of you giving your ex wife, 'wife or death' choice, your ex wife chose death.  Regardless of how sick, repugnant and wrong her choice was.  It was her choice.

SoupSarah when you mention your Gender Dysphoria and intersex condition and when Allie mentions her Gender Incongruence both of you had no choice in regards to those conditions, just like a person who is born with Type I diabetes, Thalidomide babies born with no arms, born blind or deaf.  They also had no choice whatsoever in their conditions, just like you.  However, in all the cases I have just mentioned, treatment or adaptation to those particular condition is undertaken, so that one will be able live their lives to the fullest extent possible and that includes me.

Whether you decided you had a choice or not in your situation, is your perspective.  However, the solution to your situation was based on choice and as you said and I quote:

I then atempted suicide in 2018 - after a failed mental health assesment by the NHS. This faliure sparked me to get some proper help (as I was having 'flashbacks' and was suffering from cPTSD as well as DID).. 3 years of hard work, reliving some desperate times, some atrocities and some heinous crimes against me. I beat DID, I merged into one person, me.. and then I started rebuilding my life.
To date, in 3 years I have found the love of my life, changed country, got married, bought a house and car - moved my daughter over to live with me and got a great job. I am happy and level and at peace. The first 50 years of my life a nightmare - hoping the next 50 are much better. My novel of my life is in the works and I am touting for publishers as we speak.

Transitioning, has yielded the peace, contentment and a much better life than you ever did before and as you have said and I quote;

it was because if I did not do this, I would be dead.

The choices we make are inside ourselves.  We can choose how to think, what perspective to have on life, what beliefs to hold, and whether to be happy or unhappy. We can choose to change or stagnate.

We all have this power, it's called, free will, which nobody can take away from us.  So even if life isn't perfect, one still has control over how we respond, how we feel and how we see things. Such is life.

I wish with all my heart that the next 50 years of your life are beyond your wildest dreams in terms of happiness and contentment.  Please let me know when you publish your book, as us Aussies would say; "Fair Dinkum I would buy a copy".

Love and Hugs
Sarah B
Official Greeter
PS Edited quotes to reference the original
@SoupSarah
@Allie Jayne
@Sephirah

[SoupSarah]

Hi Everyone

You chose to transition over dying and as a consequence you lost everything. 

THe first line of my post was 'If choosing between living and dying is a choice - then I guess it is a choice' - clearly acknowledging the semantic response to their being an actual choice.. the point.. which I seemed to fail to communicate - is there is no practical choice. Killing yourself is a choice - but  it is a long term solution to short term problems.. and not something I would ever hope anyone would make as a CHOICE...you get me.. practicalities make some choices nonsense and that leaves you with little option that are realistically possible.

Would you look a cancer patient in the eyes and say, 'you had a choice to get cancer, why did you choose to get cancer?'.. in the same way you cannot say to me I had a choice about GD. I understand your semantic argument that the 'treatment' is a choice.. but really as a human can you say that death is an option and do you really think that is a message you want to put out on a public accessible server that vulnerable people with GD access??

By saying we have a choice we are leaving the whole community open to people like my ex wife saying 'well go on then, kill yourselves'.. There are enough of those people around already - we don't need to start giving them invitations to quote members of this community that say transition is a choice. We all have a responsibility to protect those that come after us, to somehow make their journey's easier than what we had it - make their CHOICES easier.. not offer them the dry semantics of 'death is an option'.

My childhood is to horrific to publish - my transition the cause of great loss that I simply summarised but purposefully ommited the pain and the emotion from - for I was wanting to promote a future, a purpose to this whole thing of transition and to display that 'IT IS WORTH IT IN THE END'.. I really think some people need to take on responsibilities and realise what they are writing is being read by many many other people, some vulnerable, some haters and some curious.. and to stop trying to score points.

[Rachel]

I told my parents I was a girl 2 weeks before my 5th birthday. It really went own hill for a long time. I took care of my Mom and when she died I had to transition. It was that simple.

[Sephirah]

THe first line of my post was 'If choosing between living and dying is a choice - then I guess it is a choice' - clearly acknowledging the semantic response to their being an actual choice.. the point.. which I seemed to fail to communicate - is there is no practical choice. Killing yourself is a choice - but  it is a long term solution to short term problems.. and not something I would ever hope anyone would make as a CHOICE...you get me.. practicalities make some choices nonsense and that leaves you with little option that are realistically possible.

Would you look a cancer patient in the eyes and say, 'you had a choice to get cancer, why did you choose to get cancer?'.. in the same way you cannot say to me I had a choice about GD. I understand your semantic argument that the 'treatment' is a choice.. but really as a human can you say that death is an option and do you really think that is a message you want to put out on a public accessible server that vulnerable people with GD access??

By saying we have a choice we are leaving the whole community open to people like my ex wife saying 'well go on then, kill yourselves'.. There are enough of those people around already - we don't need to start giving them invitations to quote members of this community that say transition is a choice. We all have a responsibility to protect those that come after us, to somehow make their journey's easier than what we had it - make their CHOICES easier.. not offer them the dry semantics of 'death is an option'.

My childhood is to horrific to publish - my transition the cause of great loss that I simply summarised but purposefully ommited the pain and the emotion from - for I was wanting to promote a future, a purpose to this whole thing of transition and to display that 'IT IS WORTH IT IN THE END'.. I really think some people need to take on responsibilities and realise what they are writing is being read by many many other people, some vulnerable, some haters and some curious.. and to stop trying to score points.

This is not about scoring points, Sarah. This is about understanding why you are who you are. That's literally all it is. You did not fail to communicate this. I have seen this viewpoint so many times it's like half of the way people feel about themselves here. And while I understand it, I very much come down on the side of the other Sarah on this.

You are appealing to emotion.. and that is a logical fallacy. No one chooses to get cancer. No one chooses to be trans. What you're saying is.. I understand the emotion behind it but in reality it makes no sense.

Sarah has laid out her argument in a well rounded, open ended discourse.

What I do agree with, is what you say when you say that by acknowledging what we do in life leaves us, and the whole community open, to people with differing views to our own.

It does. Of course it does. But that's what being human is. It's having differing views. It's having a different outlook on life. If you can't come to terms with that between people who are the same race, what hope do we have as a species? How often have we seen this come up time and time again? Race? Skin colour? Ethnicity? This is no different. To just hide behind it and say it isn't a thing is not who we are. We have to face our demons to exorcise them. To pretend they don't exist is folly.

SoupSarah you are doing what many people do. You are equating choice to be something you could have chosen to do differently. And if you had, maybe your life would have been different. You're absolving yourself of free will, sweetie. I have discussed this at length with Sarah B because she wasn't sure she should post anything at all. Even though what she had to say was something that needed to be said. Way better than I can, I might add. Just because you can do X or Y, doesn't mean in your life you can do Y and can't do X. We don't always accept the choices we make, but we do always have to understand them. As the Wachowski sisters eluded to in the Matrix movies before they both came out as trans. They knew this even then. And yeah... I don't disagree.

[Sephirah]

I told my parents I was a girl 2 weeks before my 5th birthday. It really went own hill for a long time. I took care of my Mom and when she died I had to transition. It was that simple.

I am so sorry to hear that, Rachel. If you don't mind me asking, how old were you when your mom died? You didn't specify and I feel kind of weird for asking.

*hugs*

[Allie Jayne]

Sarah and Sephira, the debate over choice is a diversion from this topic and not what the OP intended.

In many of the perspectives, we eventually have to agree to disagree. Believe me, of most of my life I believed as you do, and I took pride in my choices, but in recent years, I learned harshly that my life was not entirely in my control. When the choice to transition or protect my family came, I chose to protect my family, but when my health continued to fail, my doctor pointed out that all of the options would negatively affect my family. I had chosen an immeasurable amount of times in 60+ years NOT to transition, and I was still  in this mindset when my doctor explained that there wasn't an option which I would like. I couldn't make that decision, I lacked the courage, and to be honest, I was defeated. I just said 'whatgever' and the doctor ordered me to use the patches.

It more than rudely told me I wasn't part of this direction, the dissonance of doing what I did not believe in plunged me into a deep depression. My therapist was worried, and told me I had to accept what was happening, but I couldn't, and still haven't. The stress was a significant contributor to my heart attack. This should indicate how much I didn't want to take this path, and why I could never make that choice.

Just months before this, I was sick, but still believed as you do, that I had choices. Previous to that, I did have some choice, but when it got critical, my options disappeared. The differences between your perspectives and mine are time and experience. You are right for you at this time in your life, but, unfortunately , not for me.

Hugs,

Allie

[Sarah B]

Hi Everyone

Allie mentioned in her post above and I quote:

Sarah and Sephira, the debate over choice is a diversion from this topic and not what the OP intended.

The discussion about choice has been between all four of us namely, me, Sephirah, SoupSarah and Allie and arose from the topic "The straw that broke the camel's back.".  Allie is right and that the discussion has diverged from the original post and needs to revert to the original post.

One of the reasons why I considered not posting any further even though I wanted to, was not going to solve the diagrammatically opposed views of, you have a choice and you do not have a choice.  In other words we have to agree to disagree.  Another reason was, I did not want this thread locked or even worse deleted.

So I ask politely, that everyone please refrain from discussing 'choice' further in this thread and if anyone wants to discuss the topic of 'choice', please create a thread to do so.

Take care and all the best

Hugs
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Allie Jayne
@SoupSarah
@Sephirah
@Northern Star Girl

[SoupSarah]

Healthy debate and opposing views should be welcomed as long as they stay that way and don't get personal - I think everyone in this topic has been remarkably diligent in providing their thoughts without it needing any sort of moderation..

For me - there was no straw - it was a tsunami that I could not hold back...  My camel drowned.. its' back not worth mentioning.

[NikkiM]

I was bullied a lot back in school and it hurt a lot. Good thing was the classmates that bullied me did change and proven it to me. It was at the 10th high school reunion they apologized to me calling me Nikki. It has been great ever since and we keep in touch. Said they learned their lesson and learned about my transition to female after. I have fully forgiven them

[Sephirah]

Healthy debate and opposing views should be welcomed as long as they stay that way and don't get personal - I think everyone in this topic has been remarkably diligent in providing their thoughts without it needing any sort of moderation..

For me - there was no straw - it was a tsunami that I could not hold back...  My camel drowned.. its' back not worth mentioning.

Yeah I love you all. SoupSarah, you know I love you. But Allie and Sarah B are right, that's not what this thread is about. And there are some things which... just... everyone has their own view on and arguing about them just ends up with everyone chasing their tails. Irresistable force/immovable object and all that.

Sometimes it's better to just let it go. As that horribly annoying Disney movie insists on, for anyone under 8 years old, lol.

I will tell you something else for me. And this is something I've never shared with anyone. Back when I was a kid, I found one of my mum's bras, and put it on. I stuffed it with socks, and put a top on over it. Looking in the mirror... I don't even know how to explain what I felt. It felt both right and wrong at the same time. I never, ever had the urge to do that again, because.. I think that while feeling grown up and right made me feel good, feeling like I was literally stuffing a bra with socks made me feel really, REALLY bad. It was such a juxtaposition of emotion. I hated having to do it, but seeing how it made me look, felt like... right? I don't even know. All I knew is there was something wrong because no one else I knew did that. Or felt like that. Had that impulse. It made me feel probably more confused and out of place than I already did. With far more questions than answers.

I was bullied a lot back in school and it hurt a lot. Good thing was the classmates that bullied me did change and proven it to me. It was at the 10th high school reunion they apologized to me calling me Nikki. It has been great ever since and we keep in touch. Said they learned their lesson and learned about my transition to female after. I have fully forgiven them

That is extremely awesome, Nikki. Kids can be so cruel because they have not been in the world long enough to learn tact, or how the world really works. It's only when they grow up and learn how to not be kids that... yeah, a lot of people change. I am very, very glad you got to experience this because childhood experiences can be massively traumatic for a lot people. And they are scars that take a long time to heal, if they ever do.

*hugs*

[NikkiM]

Yeah I love you all. SoupSarah, you know I love you. But Allie and Sarah B are right, that's not what this thread is about. And there are some things which... just... everyone has their own view on and arguing about them just ends up with everyone chasing their tails. Irresistable force/immovable object and all that.

Sometimes it's better to just let it go. As that horribly annoying Disney movie insists on, for anyone under 8 years old, lol.

I will tell you something else for me. And this is something I've never shared with anyone. Back when I was a kid, I found one of my mum's bras, and put it on. I stuffed it with socks, and put a top on over it. Looking in the mirror... I don't even know how to explain what I felt. It felt both right and wrong at the same time. I never, ever had the urge to do that again, because.. I think that while feeling grown up and right made me feel good, feeling like I was literally stuffing a bra with socks made me feel really, REALLY bad. It was such a juxtaposition of emotion. I hated having to do it, but seeing how it made me look, felt like... right? I don't even know. All I knew is there was something wrong because no one else I knew did that. Or felt like that. Had that impulse. It made me feel probably more confused and out of place than I already did. With far more questions than answers.

That is extremely awesome, Nikki. Kids can be so cruel because they have not been in the world long enough to learn tact, or how the world really works. It's only when they grow up and learn how to not be kids that... yeah, a lot of people change. I am very, very glad you got to experience this because childhood experiences can be massively traumatic for a lot people. And they are scars that take a long time to heal, if they ever do.

*hugs*

It was a long time to heal from it which I have recovered from it.The song that made them change was Hurt by the late Johnny Cash.They heard it and knew what they did to me was wrong