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Crossdressing or Transvestism?

Started by TanyaG, September 24, 2024, 10:41:13 AM

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TanyaG

Susan's Place provides a list of definitions and terms, including these:

Crossdresser: a person wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally no sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

Transvestite: a person who wears the clothing of the opposite gender, and has no desire to permanently change their sex. There is generally a strong sexual motivation for the cross-dressing.

I would contend the two terms are artificial and should be combined into one, because their major features are a liking for wearing the clothes of another sex and perhaps to pass as a member of that sex.

Not wishing to have sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) is a separate and complex strand, but some people who crossdress will eventually opt for surgery and some will never get as far as considering it.

This is important, because some people who like wearing clothes designed for another sex have come to terms – for all kinds of practical reasons – with not going down the SRS route, but still allow themselves the dream of being another sex, even if they have decided to stay with the one they were assigned at birth.

The motivation for wearing clothes associated with another sex has complex roots. People have crossdressed for millennia, but the practice only came to prominence when psychiatrists got involved. That began with the publication of Carl Westphal's Die Conträre Sexualempfindung or The Contrary Sexual Feeling, in 1870, which led to the medicalisation of gender expression.

The word transvestism is even more recent, dating to 1910. It was coined by the sexual scientist and gay rights activist Magnus Hirschfeld. The full title of his book was Die Transvestiten: Eine Untersuchung über den Erotischen Verkleidungstrieb or Transvestites: The Erotic Drive to Cross-Dress and it was ladled straight into the simmering soup of the emerging specialty of psychoanalysis. In those days, cutting edge thinking held that everything that wasn't normal might have its roots in sexuality. Somewhere. However unlikely the connection might be.

With due respect to my own profession, if you are a hammer, everything looks like a nail. This is an area in which there has been little research and such studies as there are frequently rely on small numbers, are anecdotal, or are motivated by such a strong bias as to hardly qualify as research at all.

If you take the view that non-standard behaviours are pathological and that gender and sex are the same thing, then I guess the motivation for dressing up in the clothes of another sex must be explained by some sexual reason. Preferably buried deep in your past and only accessible through the skills of an analyst.

Against this, even the UK's recent Cass review of gender identity services for children and young people draws a line between gender and sex. In the report, the committee used the Office for National Statistics' (ONS) definitions:

Sex: "referring to the biological aspects of an individual as determined by their anatomy, which is produced by their chromosomes, hormones and their interactions; generally male or female; something that is assigned at birth".

And...

Gender: "a social construction relating to behaviours and attributes based on labels of masculinity and femininity; gender identity is a personal, internal perception of oneself and so the gender category someone identifies with may not match the sex they were assigned at birth".

We aren't naturally gendered when we are born – it comes to us later through a diverse and mostly subconscious learning process, or as Simone de Beauvoir memorably put it, 'One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman'. She could easily have written, 'One is not born a man, but rather learns to become a man,' but that would have played merry hell with the title of her book.

As the ONS definitions of gender and sex are at pains to point out, since one is not necessarily congruent with the other, it is hardly surprising that some of us end up in a situation where the two do not march in lockstep. Do notice that the ONS makes no mention of sexuality at all in its definitions, because being assigned a particular sex at birth does not necessarily mean that you will be attracted to another sex or that you will be gender conforming with your own sex.

From which drops the realisation that you can grow up to be non-gender conforming and like wearing clothes belonging to another sex without any sexual motivation for doing so whatsoever. Or grow up every shade between there and having a strong motivation for doing so, because that's the way the human race works – we aren't binary and almost every one of our characteristics, physical or mental, is a point on a spectrum.

This is what makes people so much fun, our differences, not our similarities.

Which takes me neatly to my final point. My partner and I have a friend who describes herself to all and sundry as a butch lesbian. Yet most people don't realise she is one because lots of women dress like men, right down to short haircuts and work boots. At times it has been the peak of fashion and through familiarity we accept it to the point we are no longer aware of it, though society did not accept women crossdressing in 1910, back when Hirschfeld published.

Today, we are so used to women dressing with male gender expression that few would call it crossdressing or transvestism, but more to the point, I have never heard anyone suggest that women who like dressing that way do so for sexual gratification. Although, based on my understanding of human variability, I am sure some do.

Yet for men with female gender expression, the rules have changed little since Hirschfeld's time. To be sure, the American Psychiatric Association's (APA's) DSM-5-TR classification very generously does not classify a man who, 'likes to dress in women's clothes but does not identify as a woman and otherwise lives typically as a male' as having a psychiatric disorder. That's progress, kind of.

The key point here is that DSM-5-TR mostly calls such a desire transvestitism, but uses the word cross-dressing as a synonym. This is the APA speaking – one of the most conservative (small c) medical associations in this arm of the galaxy.

The DSM-5-TR also has a diagnosis of 'transvestic disorder' but makes it clear it "does not apply to all individuals who dress as the opposite sex, even those who do so habitually." Instead, the DSM only considers transvestism a disorder if "cross-dressing or thoughts of cross-dressing are always or often accompanied by sexual excitement."

Waiting for the DSM to change is like watching an oceanic iceberg melt. To afficionados of the DSM like myself, the runes are clear and transvestic disorder is headed for the scrap heap, soon – which in the APA's terms means it could be as imminent as late this century. Yet even the APA conceptualises crossdressing and transvestism as the same thing, even while its DSM presents one as a disorder and the other as part of what we call normality.

Perhaps we should do the same and merge the two terms? Only we could beat the APA to the draw by a decade or two by dropping the sexual motivation thing?

If you have any views, please contribute!

Lori Dee

When I was in school getting my hypnotherapy certifications we had the same or similar definitions.

When I was diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, my psychologist explained that the difference between cross-dressing and transvestism was the presence of sexual arousal. A cross-dresser dresses for any number of reasons such as the art of drag performances or just a fashion preference. There is no sexual arousal in these situations. The desire to be the opposite sex or to transition has no bearing either way. Transvestites receive sexual pleasure from cross-dressing and may not view themselves as the opposite gender.

Since the DSM diagnosis lumps both together, there is a sub-category with an ICD code. In my records, it shows as "Transvestism - Gender Dysphoria in Adolescence and Adulthood".

I don't think the two should be lumped together. There is a clear difference between the two; hopefully, DSM-6 will address that. I see Transvestism as the cross-dressing component and should have the sub-categories of cross-dresser or transvestite for clarification. The difference is whether or not sexual arousal is the motivation.

But Gender Dysphoria should be moved into the category of Body Dysmorphia. We do not have a problem with our gender, we have a problem with our body.

Just my two cents worth.  ;D

Hugs!
My Life is Based on a True Story

2017 - GD Diagnosis / 2020 - HRT / 2022 - FFS & Legal Name Change / 2024 - Voice Training

Gaydave

I would say am part transvestite and part CD I generally wear now all the time my purchases and never wear my own underwear

Lori Dee

Quote from: Gaydave on September 24, 2024, 11:57:06 AMI would say am part transvestite and part CD I generally wear now all the time my purchases and never wear my own underwear

My psychologist and I discussed this at length. The bottom line is why and how you feel when dressed. You don't need to answer, but the distinction is while dressed do you feel aroused? If yes, then Transvestism. If no, then CD, whether for entertainment, fashion preference, etc. unless there is also a body dysphoria at the root of the why. If dysphoria and CD help with those symptoms, then it would follow as Gender Dysphoria.

I would be interested to know how our intersex and non-binary members would fit into this scenario. Our medical definitions must be accurate, but if the range of possible genders is a spectrum, the definitions must also be.
My Life is Based on a True Story

2017 - GD Diagnosis / 2020 - HRT / 2022 - FFS & Legal Name Change / 2024 - Voice Training
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TanyaG

#4
Quote from: Lori Dee on September 24, 2024, 11:04:57 AMWhen I was diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria, my psychologist explained that the difference between cross-dressing and transvestism was the presence of sexual arousal.

Part of the issue here is the desire the human race has to categorise and label things, even when the 'things' concerned aren't amenable to being pigeonholed. The rainbow is a fantastic example of this, because we split it into discrete colours when it is a continuous spectrum.

Sexuality is another good example. Until recently, the concept was so constrained that there was only straight or gay, with bisexuality regarded as an uncertain hinterland. More recently the concept of mostly straight came along and even with that included, the splits don't work well, because some people have different romantic and sexual preferences. All of human behaviour is like this, but the DSM is not because psychiatry is in the stone age compared to physical medicine.

Crossdressing is a behaviour which has been medicalised for historical reasons in the same way that being gay was medicalised until the latter years of the last century. When homosexuality was medicallised, it was only pathologised for men and when crossdressing was medicalised, the same happened. DSM specifically excludes women from  being diagnosed as transvestite or cross-dressers, because the APA did not consider cross-dressing in women, any more than it considered homosexuality in women in the same frame as it did for men.

The history of why transvestism is bound up with a sexual motive in the psychiatric mind is because in the twentieth century, psychiatrists tied themselves into a knot. The profession conflated gender dysphoria and transvestism and then more or less completely abandoned ship, presumably in the hope that no-one would read the little research that had been done with a critical mind.

This conflation put back the modern approach to gender dysphoria by several decades in my estimation and some in my profession still cling to it.

The chances are that the next major revision of DSM will drop all definitions of transvestism or cross-dressing whatever the motive, because they aren't pathological behaviours and because it is one of the few 'diagnoses' left which has has been randomly assigned to one sex and not any other. It does not sit well in the manual.

The other reason for the diagnosis being dropped is that there is hardly any quality research to back it up. I'm retired now, but I had a patient who presented with transvestism as a diagnosis, and I asked if he had a problem with dressing as a woman. His response was no, but other people did. I responded that just because some of those other people were members of the APA didn't mean that to say he had a psychiatric problem with dressing in women's clothes per se. It was only then that we got onto where his issues lay, and it made it much, much simpler.

Once you conceptualise crossdressing as a behaviour, or a coping strategy, instead of a pathology, it is possible to stand back and see how many different triggers or inspirations there are for it - it is not as binary as the APA would like. At one end of the spectrum, some do it because they like the feel or look of women's clothes (or vice versa, men's), some crossdress because it provides a safety valve for gender dysphoria, some crossdress because it helps them become sexually aroused and yet others crossdress because they make a social career of it, as in drag queens.

So while crossdressing can provide a clue to an underlying diagnosis in the same way that a productive cough can be a symptom of pneumonia, transvestism doesn't deserve a category in DSM because it isn't a diagnosis. If you like, it can be a symptom, but like most coughs, crossdressing is often a meaningless one.

Lots of hugs back!

Gaydave

I have had a word with my charity Switchboard and also the organiser of the group tomorrow

Woman's underwear that men wear is for many different reasons ( Enjoyment, fabric or it feels)

For me my old underwear I hated how it felt how it always rubbed against my skin and got wet with sweat and how I had to change it every night. Where woman's underwear is more freedom and comfort.
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ChrissyRyan

#6
I used to be a cross dresser, or at least I did not think I was transgender at the time.
After I realized I was transgender, I simply dressed in gender conforming clothing.  I was no longer a cross dresser.  Maybe I was never a cross dresser but I thought I was at the time.


Chrissy
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Try a little kindness.  Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed brunette. 
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Sarah B

Hi Everyone

The question of whether gender is innate, socially constructed, or both is complex and this was debated here on Susan's over 14 years ago and even then I knew gender was inherently innate.

Innate Aspects:   Some argue that certain biological factors, like genetics and hormones, play a role in shaping gender identity and expression. This perspective suggests that some elements of gender are rooted in biology.

Social Construction:  On the other hand, the role of culture, society, and upbringing also defines gender roles and expectations.  Societal norms significantly influence how individuals perceive and express their gender.

Both:  A widely accepted view is that gender is a combination of both innate and social factors. Biological aspects influence those gender tendencies, but socialization and cultural context greatly shape how those tendencies manifest.

Ultimately, individual experiences of gender can vary widely, reflecting a dynamic interplay between biology and socialization.

This is why one of the fundamental flaws of the Cass report is assuming that gender is just a social construct and not a medical one. (denying medical treatment)  It is both.  Why?  Because if it was just a social construct then one would be able to eliminate Gender Dysphoria with counselling.

Cross-dressing and transvestism share similarities but have distinct connotations. Transvestism can be viewed as a subset of cross-dressing.  Combining these definitions, we can simplify the language used.  If "transvestite" is gradually phased out of usage in literature, the term "cross dresser" may eventually encompass both concepts.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
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Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.

TanyaG

Semantics lies at the core of why people spend their entire lives trying to understand themselves over complex personal issues like this. So to everyone who has been involved with this thread, I'm with you, but I've always found it helpful to look at things in many different ways, especially in evolving scenarios.

First, I'm totally supportive of the concept of gender dysphoria, though I would suggest calling it sex dysphoria, because it's helpful to distinguish between sex and gender. If we could come up with new words for sex and gender, that would help even more, because when you have fought your way through the system, overcoming challenges every step of the way and finally achieved an equilibrium, who wants to overturn the system?

Second, I think Hilary Cass was naive for agreeing to lead a medical enquiry which was done for political reasons. I don't agree with most of the report, but I do agree with some of the findings, for example the one that more research should be done in this area. Beyond surgical studies, hardly any has been done. I have a database of all the research and it is laughable how little there is and how low quality it is.

Reading posts here, I am convinced that collectively the members of a group like Susan's very likely understand more about gender/sex dysphoria than many the people who diagnose and treat us, mostly because so little research has been done. It is just that most of us lack the terminology to be able to put what we feel into words.

What follows is my model which helped and helps me understand who I am. I've divided it up into layers because it is the interactions between the layers in my own mind and in other people's minds that influence how I think of myself and how others think of me.

Level 1 - sex. A far as phenotype goes I have a male body and am chromosomally male (important because phenotype and genotype do not always match.

Level 2 - gender. I was brought up to be a man - in alignment with my phenotype - which means I absorbed the scripts which go with masculinity. No-one thought to give me a choice in this and so it is where the first clash in me happens, because a part of me is mentally aligned with feminine scripts and by choice my gender expression would be female.

Level 3 - sexual orientation. As with everyone, this wasn't an issue until puberty and growing up around more girls than boys when I was a kid, until the moment hormones struck, I had some fun times when we wore each others clothes to see what it was like, did a lot of lets pretend and nobody raised an eyebrow until oestrogen and testosterone entered the picture. At that point, I discovered I was attracted to girls (I'm straight until I discover otherwise). If I had been gay then the next bit might very well have been easier.

Level 4 - resolution. Society and the profession I entered likes people to conform, because it makes things predictable and reassuring. The first question I had to answer, not though I knew it at the time, was that things I 'knew' were often only things that I had been told were that way, so many times that I took them for granted. Some of these things were right, some were not.

One thing I knew was that women dressed and behaved like women and men dressed and behaved like men. Yet here I was, a man who would, given the choice and if everyone was okay with it, would have dressed and behaved like a woman. Red lights go on everywhere in my mind, because how am I to resolve this? At level 1 I am a man, no denying that if I look in the mirror. At level 2 I am a woman who has been brought up to be a man. At level 3 if I could be a woman, then I would be gay, but that's a problem, because I'm straight, and at level 4 I have a massive migraine because this does not compute.

That was when fortune dropped me the biggest favour of my entire life. I met someone with complete Androgen insensitivity Syndrome (AIS). She was very obviously a girl and quite breathtaking as it happened, but early on in our relationship she told me that genetically, she was a man. I did not give a tuppenny damn about that, so we had a wonderful time, but then I realised that she held the key to me.

This is her.

Level 1 - sex. She's male genetically but female phenotypically (she had testes instead of ovaries and we met when they were being surgically removed).

Level 2 - gender. She was brought up as a girl and without anyone asking her views on the subject had been medically managed as a girl. Why? Because the specialists and her family found it easier.

Level 3 - sexual orientation. Good question, was she gay or straight? My answer was 'who cares about words' but if you start tying gender to sex you disenfranchise a slice of people who are intersex and drop virtually every single person with AIS into the frying pan at both level 2 and 3.

Level 4 - resolution. She was seriously unsettled about how it had been taken for granted when she was a minor that she would 'obviously' want to be a girl. We resolved this between us by talking through how her body's insensitivity to androgens dictated more or less everything.

Then we turned to my issues and I don't think I have ever laughed so much before or since. We tried on each other's clothes, she made me up, we went to parties starting with her as a man and me as a woman before swapping clothes half way through, you name it, we shocked everyone.

One day she said something like - and this was long before the term sex (or gender) dysphoria was an accepted term - 'I guess you would like to be a woman if I could snap my fingers and make you one, but you don't want it enough to go through SRS?'

Which was true, because that's me in a nutshell and there's a friction there, because sometimes I am more one way than I am the other, but I have learned to live happily with it.

My reply was what let me out of my mental jail, even as I said it. It was something like, 'The main reason I don't want SRS right now is that you are straight, and so you wouldn't have the hots for me!' and suddenly we both saw how artificial all the constructs of sex, gender and orientation all were and how unhelpful they can be. But in understanding the interplay between them lay the key to the pair of us understanding ourselves.

Does this make sense?
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ChrissyRyan

The T word, transvestism, sounds so clinical!
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Try a little kindness.  Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed brunette. 
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TanyaG

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on September 26, 2024, 07:38:03 PMThe T word, transvestism, sounds so clinical!

Ya, and it dates back to 1910 and has perjorative associations too. I've never used except in discussions like this one where there isn't any choice, but I'd be glad were it gone and crossdressing used with no qualifications instead.
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ChrissyRyan

Quote from: TanyaG on September 27, 2024, 06:58:33 AMYa, and it dates back to 1910 and has perjorative associations too. I've never used except in discussions like this one where there isn't any choice, but I'd be glad were it gone and crossdressing used with no qualifications instead.

Ya.
Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Try a little kindness.  Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed brunette. 
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