How to fill a bra for beginners part 4 - the Divine Athena plate

[TanyaG]

Having had an Athena for five months now, I've decided putting one on is an art. The Breast Form Store literature doesn't cover this in much detail, leaving buyers to find out by trial and error, which seems to me to be underselling a great product, because once you learn how to put an Athena on, it looks as good as anything I've seen.

So if you're trying to figure out how to wear an Athena, or thinking of buying one and wondering if there are any tricks of the trade, here is a brain dump.

High or low?

Let's say you are looking at a newly arrived Athena in its box (just turn the lid upside down, the artwork is what it is!) Bearing in mind you're going to be putting it on facing a mirror, with every movement reversed, where do you aim?

My first attempts set the plate too low every single time. The temptation is to put the Athena nipples at the level of your own nipples as you press in onto your chest, but if you do that, the Athena will sit about an inch and a half too low. Why? It's a combination of using a mirror and the way the forms are made, but if I take that approach, I get it wrong every time. You may have better luck.

If you set the Athena on your chest an inch and a half higher than you think is right, then depending on the length of your chest, the neckline of the plate will fall where the curve of the base of your neck begins. After a lot of experimentation, I've found this is the sweet spot.

Why not get the neckline right first and then press the forms on? Good luck, but only if you have an extra pair of hands, because the forms are where the centre of gravity of the Athena lies. I have only one set of paws and unless my partner helps, getting the neckline right first is unmanageable to hilarious.

Tricks of the trade

It's much easier to apply forms first. Then, if you've goofed, it's a cinch to gently unstick the forms and press them on higher up, before peeling down the shoulder extensions and the front of the Athena and rolling them back on into the new position so everything falls right.

With an Athena set lower than this, you're likely to end up with ripples in the silicone over the notch between your collarbones. That's hard to fix without adhesive, which is a pain. These ripples are formed by natural body movement, and when they happen it will be right in the midline of the lowest point of the curve of the plate's neckline just below your throat. Yep, it's the worst possible place and that part of the plate will detach from the skin. When it happens, it's visible a mile off and no amount of makeup or plate customisation will hide it.

Obviously, if you wear your Athena under clothing, ripples don't matter because they won't be visible, but that'll restrict your choice of tops. Most crew neck t-shirts will cover the area, but many tops and dresses don't. The product literature for the Athena is full of phrases like 'perfect for exposing cleavage' all over it and I'm guessing that many readers will be thinking of buying with that in mind, no?

[TanyaG]

One thing I haven't covered about the Athena in much detail is the cup sizes on offer. I take a 36 inch band and the Athena MD plate is a perfect fit for me, but there are two choices of form size with the two sizes of plate Divine offer.

To make this completely clear, I take a 36 inch (non plus four) size band. If that leaves you baffled, read my post on how to calculate your bra band size! Put another way, in terms of brands you might know, a 36 Gossard, Fantasie, Freya, Empreinte, Marks and Spencer or PrimaDonna band fits me.

Divine offer two cup size choices for the MD plate, a 4 and a 6. On a 36 inch band, the size 4 form translates a DD in most ranges, but a D in Gossard bras with wide radius wires and also a D in some Euro bras. So for instance, many, but not all Empreinte 36Ds are a perfect fit for it, but in Pour Moi the MD-4 plate would usually fit a 38D. In many Marks and Spencer bras the MD-4 also fits a 36D on me.

In terms of specific bras, the MD-4 plate I have is perfect fit for a 36D Gossard Superboost Lave Deep V bralet and for the Padded Plunge bra in the same range. It is also a good fit with the Gossard Fleur de Nuit non padded balcony in 36D, but in the Superboost Lace non padded bra, a 36DD is a better fit while in the Glossies range I'm always a 36DD. It fits perfectly with a 36D M&S Embrace embroidered full cup bra by the way and those are fantastic VFM beside being comfortable to wear.

On the Divine sizing chart, the MD-6 plate on my back would be a 36F, which is a jump of two cup sizes. Now I haven't tried one, but my guess is the same rules would apply and with it on I'd turn out to be a 36E in some ranges (as in a 36DDD) US but a 36F in others.

One thing I've always wondered about with Divine is that in all of their forms I've any experience with, they only offer even cup sizes. I guess this keeps their product line simple, but I'd be reasonably certain that offering a size 3 cup with the MD plate (which would translate to a 36C) would be popular. It isn't everyone who wants to get noticed and the two form sizes Divine have chosen are on the large size.

[TanyaG]

I had a good look at the 'natural feel' (NF) form Athena plate before it went in the trash and while at a glance it looks similar if not identical to the 'implant feel' (IF) plate lying on its support, the forms are made quite differently.

If you look at the surface of the Athena that lies next your skin, the IF plate has a smooth, featureless back. But the NF plate forms have slightly recessed circular areas about four or five inches across and it looks as if these seal over a softer quality silicone core. Surrounding that is a layer of firmer silicone, identical to the grade used in the IF plate, which makes the forms robust, while at the same time leaving them soft to the feel.

It's quite a clever solution when it comes to manufacturing a product which can be worn during sleep (which say, Amoena forms can't) and yet feels as natural as possible. A lot of thought has gone into the Athena.

[TanyaG]

When I began to explore my trans nature, it was long enough ago there wasn't an internet, which made it almost impossible to find anything out... well, anything! But I was very resourceful, even then and if you read my much neglected blog, I had some awesome girlfriends who helped me find my way.

Despite the web and despite places like Susan's I still think it's hard to make the first steps if you are trans, whether those steps are dressing as another sex, adjusting to the inner voices (scripts) cursing you for doing so, or thinking about going deeper into the journey. One thing I can say is, don't assume there is only one destination. A lot of people assume that 'trans' equals 'transition' but my experience says that it's probably best to win the war going on in your own head before you decide on your final stop. If you don't take that path, not only might you end up in the wrong place, you'll be denied a ton of enjoyment along the way.

These posts have mostly been for people assigned male at birth, but I promise I'll do some for members journeying the other way.

Okay, more thoughts on the Athena, specifically the fit.

If you look at the images of the Athena on the Breast Form Store site, apart from noticing the two form sizes available are huge and massive on anything less than a 38 inch chest, you'll have spotted what I call the shoulder extensions. These extensions are one of the many clever solutions embodied in the Athena, because they make putting it on an order of magnitude easier than its competitors and they leave your back clear, unlike virtually all of the competition. However, there is an art to placing them right.

When you put an Athena on, the lowest point of the neck needs to lie above the level of the tops of your collarbones and covering the dip between them, often called the jugular notch. That leaves the Athena neckline right at the junction of your neck and your chest and eliminates wrinkles. You can see it, but the transition between Athena and skin is easily concealed at the front.

It is less easy to conceal the extensions, because they extend over the top of your shoulders and go on a couple or three inches down your back. They're important, because they do much to hold the Athena in place and make it as comfortable to wear as it is, but if you wear a bandeau top, or anything that's off the shoulder, they'll be in plain sight and short of covering your entire torso with makeup, you ain't gonna hide them.

So wearing an Athena anywhere you mind the extensions being seen means clothes that cover your shoulders and come up level with the base of your neck at the back, so the strapless dress of your dreams is out, darling. Look on the bright side, you can still wear it at home :-)

There's a trick to placing the shoulder extensions, which is not to let them follow their natural inclination to curve in toward each other. At least, that's their natural inclination on me, YMMV. If they are allowed to do that, then movements of your arm toward the other side of your body will cause a wrinkle to form in the extension as the skin moves. You can avoid that entirely by encouraging the straps to follow the line where a bra strap would go and if you do that, hey presto, no wrinkles.

[TanyaG]

As I've been refining my take on the Divine Collection Athena plate, I've been meaning to write more about the two consistencies of breast form on offer. To quote the Breast Form Store web page descriptions, these are:

Implant feel (firmer silicone)

and

Natural breast feel (softer, squishy silicone)

The descriptions aren't wrong, but they could be better put and there is a $150 difference between the two types of form, the natural feel being that much more expensive than the implant feel.

Implant feel (IF) forms

There is a difference between how soft the forms feel when you are holding an Athena in your hand compared to how they feel when the plate is on. In the hand, the IF forms don't feel too bad but with the Athena on your chest, it takes a firm press to make them give more than about half an inch.

This is not how implants feel, regardless of whether they are silicone or saline filled. Implants are firmer than natural breast tissue, for sure, but they still compress a lot more than the IF forms do - because the IF forms are made from solid silicone. I'd describe the IF forms as extremely firm by comparison to a natural breast and someone who brushed against you would notice the difference instantly.

Which is not to say the IF forms aren't a good choice and I'm sure some will prefer them, partly because of the cost saving, but also because they are easy to manage and have a shape I imagine many drag artistes will adore.

Natural feel (NF) forms

If anything, the Athena NF forms feel more like a breast with an implant than the IF forms do - firmer than natural breast tissue, but not overly so.

In the hand, an Athena with NF forms feels like jelly, but once on the chest, the NF forms firm up, although they are still much, much, much softer than the IF ones. If someone brushed up against you while you were wearing an Athena with NF forms, they'd have to be remarkably aware to know. If money was no object and you are thinking of buying an Athena for private use I'd recommend the NF forms every single time.

I think the designers could have come up with a better description of the IF forms and, not that anyone is asking me, I would have gone for 'firm feel' and 'softer feel' because those descriptions are less likely to lead buyers astray.

What do breasts with implants feel like by comparison?

When breasts are augmented, a saline or silicone gel filled sac is slipped in under the natural breast tissue. So if you put your hand on such a breast, the first thing you feel is the soft tissue of the glands and fat, because all of that is sitting on top of the implant. Press more and you feel a resistance as the implant comes under pressure, but with equivalent amounts of compression even a saline implant will deform more than the 'implant feel' Athena forms. Saline implants are somewhat firmer than silicone filled ones, but neither is anything like as firm as the 'implant feel' Athena forms.

So while I still think the Athena breast plate is best in class and I'd still recommend it to anyone over its competitors right now, just be aware what the terms 'implant feel' and 'natural breast feel' mean in practice. That way you won't be disappointed when your Athena arrives.

[TanyaG]

Some good news, yesterday the European end of the Breast Form Store operation got in touch to say that my replacement Athena plate should be with them tomorrow. In my experience, the European staff (who  handle the UK operation) are super efficient and it's typical of them to flag up news like this when they don't really have to. You have to warm to folk who are prepared to go the extra mile the way they do.

So I should receive the replacement Athena in about a week's time, allowing for the bureaucracy involved in it crossing the Channel (for which we have Brexit to thank, in times past, it would have got to the UK in two days!) Assuming it's in good shape, which the one it is replacing was not, then I'll have some more feedback on the natural feel version of this wonderful plate.

For the record, I placed my order for the natural feel form Athena on 16 December and it arrived with me 28th January, with an assortment of blemishes on the outward facing surface, one of which was a total showstopper. All together, I can't imagine how it got past QC, but it did.

My first contact was with the USA/Canadian end of the operation but although I made it the day after receipt it wasn't until February 12 they accepted the product was faulty.

By contrast, the European staff actioned the replacement ordering in a matter of hours, which was impressive, despite me supplying them with the wrong order number! They've been very fair in their dealings and I've been faced with no extra charges.

So, I'll probably have the replacement Athena by say 25th March, which will be three months after I ordered the one that turned up with so many faults. If the new one arrives in good shape, it will be well worth the wait.

[TanyaG]

Athena fitting update

If anyone is looking for advice about the finer points of putting an Athena on, this is an update on what I've learned from six months experience.

Overall, an Athena with 'implant feel' forms is easier to handle, because the forms are so much firmer they don't need any adjusting after placement. While the 'natural feel' forms are a little more trouble to get right, they're worth it unless you have very specific requirements, such as being a performance artist where the 'implant feel' ones might be better.

Skin prep

The Breast Form store sells various skin preps but I've never done more than have a shower and dry down first. If you have very greasy skin, I'm sure prepping could make a difference and if you're likely to sweat, then a silicone-friendly anti-perspiration spray might be worth a try.

Getting ready

The Athena is supplied resting on a plastic form inside a sturdy box, but I find it easier lifting it out and placing it form side down on a bed or on a towel folded up twice to provide some cushioning. I'd strongly advise putting on the Athena while facing a mirror that shows you down to the waist, for reasons I'll explain in a minute. If you have a top with horizontal stripes close at hand, you're peachy.

Athenas are much more supple when they're warm. After you've been wearing one for a few minutes, it will match body temperature and become more malleable, with the forms on the 'natural feel' plate settling into the cups of a bra more readily. The TL;DR is, 'do not keep your Athena in a cold room.'

Putting on an Athena as a four step process

Pick up the Athena with a hand cupping each form and place them on your chest. Your instinct will be to put the nipples on the Athena level with your own, but that'll end up with the whole plate sitting too low... which will be even worse with the 'natural feel' forms version. Why? Because the nipples will drop an inch or so under gravity, in much the same way a real breast does.

How much higher you need to aim depends on the shape and length of your chest, but I find it best to start with the Athena at least two inches upward of where my eye tells me it should go. This sounds dumb, but it's 500% easier to adjust an Athena down than it is to adjust one up.

Somehow, during this process, you need to keep an eye on three other things. First, the curve of the neckline of the Athena should end up lying at the base of your neck with the lowest part of the Athena neckline covering the inside ends of your collar bones and extending somewhat above them.

Placed like this, the edge of the Athena neckline should lie right on the place where the skin curves upward into the neck itself, around the front half of your neck. You can set an Athena on lower, but if you do, you're likely to end up with wrinkling around the front of the neck if you reach across your body in either direction. This won't be an issue if you are wearing clothes that cover the area, but will be if you aren't, so be aware of it.

Once the forms are placed, when you flip the shoulder extensions back, you'll find they try to wrap in a curve around the back of your neck, but I find the plate lies better if they are adjusted to lie straighter and more parallel to the spine, if that makes sense.

The second thing you have to get right is centring the Athena's midline with the midline of your chest. Your mileage may vary depending on how symmetrical you are, which is where the waist length mirror comes in.

With your Athena on, if you place a finger in your jugular notch and another in your belly button, a line dropped between them should pass between the middle of the forms. If it doesn't, you have the Athena off to one side or the other.

Third. you need to check the nipples are level. This is a PITA, because unless one is grossly higher or lower, it won't become obvious until you have clothes on, at which point it will be inescapably clear you've, er... boobed. Which means you'll have to undress and do it over. This you'll have to do, because lack of level is blindingly obvious in some lights.

Bet you wondered what the striped top was for? Now's its moment. This is easier to do with a bra on, but quickly pull on the top and check the mirror. If you're high or low one side or the other, you'll see it straight away.

A tip is that even if you go for the smallest areola size offered with the Athena, the nipples project between a half and 5/8 of an inch. This varies from being noticeable if you aren't wearing a padded bra to blatantly obvious if you don't wear one (and use adhesive to keep the plate on). If an option for nipples which projected only a quarter of an inch was available, I'd recommend it, but it isn't available.

Final adjustments

Depending on how symmetrical your body is, which most people's are not, you may find some extra adjustments of the neck are necessary if your Athena isn't a good fit at the base of your neck. It's tempting to do this by fiddling around with the shoulder extensions, but with 'natural feel' forms the problem is more likely the upper half of one of the forms not lying right. Fix this by working a thumb inside the neckline and taking the upper, inner part of the form between it and your fingers, before pulling up the top part of the form up slightly. This will usually take any stress off the shoulder extension and so fix the neck.

Sometimes you'll also need to adjust the bottom edge of the 'natural feel' forms into a curve so they follow the wire of a bra. All this fiddling sounds a lot, but takes less time to do than it does to type.

I'm still waiting for my replacement 'natural feel' form Athena, which has been delayed yet another week, though it has finally shipped the last leg to me. In the short experience I had of the defective one I was sent, the only difference between putting it on and the much firmer 'implant feel' form plate was the need for more adjustment of the 'natural feel' Athena.

[TanyaG]

My replacement Athena was delivered yesterday and unlike the one it replaces, arrived in perfect shape. It really matters these plates have an unblemished surface and not only because they are priced as a premium product.

The literature promotes the Athena as being 'perfect for showing cleavage' and so it is, as long as the silicone is creamy smooth. The one I was sent first arrived with three defects, one of which was visible across a room. That there should have been any discussion at all about the need for a replacement was remarkable, though not as remarkable as how the product got despatched in the first case.

It was a warm spring day today, so I tried the replacement on with a strapless bandeau top dress and although the boob tube can't be described as tight in any way, the Athena has stayed in place all day, even when I've bent over. Having had all kinds of ideas boiling up in my mind about how to ace putting a 'natural feel' form Athena on just right, I managed it first time, so I'll write more about what I've discovered in the hope it makes life easier for others.

I'm wearing the Athena around the house today so I've no worries about the neckline or shoulder extensions showing, even though the French Vanilla shade I chose is close to my (untanned) skin tone. In earlier posts I've been through what sort of clothes work best with an Athena if you're out so I'll not revisit that unless anyone has questions, but I'll post more soon.

[TanyaG]

Delivery of three Athenas with limited custom options has taken around six to seven weeks from ordering to arrival in the UK, with the whole process handled by the Breast Form Store's European operation. I've had no problems with either billing or tracking.

On arrival, each Athena has been delivered in a brown cardboard shipping box without any clue to the contents unless you count the shipping note tucked in the plastic pocket on the top. The shipping box is large and all three I've unpacked have had plenty of protection inside to ensure the contents arrived safe and sound.

The one criticism I have of the shipping box is it could be a little tougher because all three have arrived with various minor bits of damage.

Inside is the product box, which is made of quite sturdy cardboard and measures 16.5" x 16.5" by 8.5" (42cm x 42cm x 22cm). This means it occupies a lot of space in a cupboard. The box isn't something you can easily do without because it's necessary to protect the clear, hard plastic mould the Athena sits on.

The artwork on the lid shows the profile of someone wearing an Athena, in a black balconette bra and red lipstick. The rest of the box is plain apart from a small sticker describing the contents.

It would be great if there was an option to order the product box with a plain lid. If a customer was living with a partner who wasn't easy about their transness, one sight of the art could trigger them. There are many members of Susan's who are in relationships with people who accept their crossdressing but only up to a certain point, so if that describes you, be aware the lid will get the contents noticed.

I can't quite believe Athena and the Breast Form Store haven't thought of this issue, but it is how it is, so be aware.

So far I've only seen MD-4 Athenas, but with a depth of eight and a half inches the box ships with three inches of free air above the highest point of the product, so the depth of the box could be trimmed a couple of inches while still allowing room inside for cushioning. This may not be the case with the MD-6 Athena so when I get a chance to look at one, I'll report back.

[TanyaG]

When you order an Athena it is delivered without any fitting instructions, something I find slightly odd about this otherwise well thought at product.

To begin with, I put mine on with the Athena nipples at the level of my own, which led to all kinds of issues I didn't at first associate with that decision. For instance, the fit of the Athena around the base of my neck and where my collarbones met was seldom good and often wrinkled.

If you read my earlier posts, I eliminated some of the issues by putting the Athena on a little higher, but it took me a long while to appreciate that my approach was the wrong way around. If anything, you can't put an Athena on high enough.

What do I mean by that? To explain it, we need to think about what happens when you put an Athena on. To begin with, I held mine with my hands cupped around the lower half of the forms and pressed them onto my chest. That works just fine with a mint Athena, but after the silicone loses its initial stickiness, it doesn't work quite so well.

What I failed to realise is that when you put on an Athena that isn't fresh out of manufacture, it will slip downward some before you have a chance to the shoulder extensions and the flat area above the forms into place.

In addition to this slippage, with the 'natural feel' Athena, the way I was holding it was compressing the forms which meant as they relaxed into their natural shape, their lower curves were descending. The net effect was that by the time the Athena had warmed to my skin temperature, it would be anything up to three inches lower than I was expecting.

This isn't obvious, or at least it wasn't obvious to me! So I altered my technique and began instead to hold the Athena by the middle of the forms, placing it with their lower edges level with my nipples.

The first time I tried this, the Athena felt ridiculously too high, but by the time I had flipped the shoulder extensions back and eased the neck into place (using the waist length mirror trick I described in an earlier post,) it was a no brainer to get it precisely where I wanted it.

My big takeaway from this discovery is it's 200% easier to put an Athena on too high and adjust it down than to do it the other way around. That's because the forms are the heaviest bit. The straps and the thin area of silicone above them on the chest play an important part in keeping the forms where they are, but only after they've warmed up and adhered to your skin.

Put the forms on first and they will drag the whole Athena down from where it is difficult to adjust it back up, yet if you put the Athena on too high, then once you have the extensions and chest area in place, easing the forms down and adjusting everything else is easy because the silicone is so forgiving.

Looking it another way, if you put an Athena on too low, you end up fighting gravity. Put it on too high and gravity works with you.

I discovered another benefit of aiming high which is because you end up adjusting the forms down, you rarely end up with them bunching up. This isn't an issue with the 'implant feel' Athena, because the forms are so stiff they can't bunch, but it's a thing with the 'natural feel' version. With a natural feel Athena it's easy to end up with upper half of the forms looking almost like your bra is a cup size too small, because they haven't settled on right. 'Bunched up' describes it well and the 'aim high' approach makes it easy to spot and fix.

So what I do now is put the Athena on what seems stupidly high, settle in the shoulder extensions and the straps, before easing the forms down in small increments until the side profile above the nipples is slightly convex and the lower radii are nicely curved. Once this is done, I double check the midline and use the striped t-shirt trick and forget about the Athena for the rest of the day.

[TanyaG]

My experience of Athenas is they are pretty tough, but equally, being silicone, they need care. To begin with I used to wash mine every fifth wear, but that leads to exfoliated skin building up on the back of the Athena.

In itself this wouldn't be a problem, because it doesn't make the Athena stay in place any better, but it has implications. The first is that when you put the plate back on its acrylic mount in its box, anything that's left on the back transfers to the mount and it's very hard to get it off. No biggie, but if you like your mount to look neat and clean, then this isn't the way to go!

Secondly, if you use adhesive to secure the plate, it probably won't work as well if you don't clean the Athena after each use.

So what I do now is to clean the Athena daily, which takes a couple of minutes at most. After laying the plate forms down in a sink, I run enough lukewarm water in to be able to splash it over them, but not so much the backs of the forms are covered. A small squirt of cleaner goes a long way and after rubbing it with a wet hand over the back of the forms, I hand wash the rest of it the same way, paying particular attention to the shoulder extensions, which pick up fluff like you can't imagine.

Be mindful there are no sharp edges on the plug or the chain in your sink and if there are, you'd be better off using a big plastic washing up bowl. It hasn't happened to me yet, but I know silicone is easy to nick and I'd hate it to happen!

Also look after your nails, which I'm sure you do already, because a rough edge poses as much risk.

After I've finished the wash, which I'll stress is really quick, I rinse the Athena off with cold water and lay it on a doubled up towel to dry on the bathroom floor. I leave it to dry overnight, but if you aren't in a position to do that, then patting it down is fine; just make sure you use something lint free or you'll be back where you started!

When you're wearing your Athena be careful going through doors if you're wearing anything low cut because the exposed cleavage will be vulnerable to damage but that soon becomes second nature.

One final thing that occurs to me is something I can't find written anywhere on the Breast Form Store site.

The Athena is made from silicone and as you probably know, silicone based lube is a no-no with silicone toys, because it literally melts them. I strongly suspect the same fate would befall an Athena if silicone lube got anywhere near it and even traces on your fingers might be enough to damage the surface. So be warned! We don't have any anywhere in the house, but many people do and it only takes a moment's forgetfulness for things to go pear shaped!

[Lori Dee]

Does the manufacturer recommend powdering it after cleaning?

I have a mannequin that I used to practice makeup on. The recommendation was to clean it the way you describe, with just soap and water. For heavier stains, use alcohol or mineral spirits. The mineral spirits work very well, but then you need to apply a very light coat of baby oil to restore the surface. After a few hours, the oil soaks in, then you apply baby powder to soak up any excess oil.

I could see this helping the "outside" of the plate, but I wouldn't do that to the part that is supposed to stick to your skin. The powder makes it feel like natural skin, but it makes it less sticky, and if you sweat, the powder would make a mess.

[TanyaG]

Does the manufacturer recommend powdering it after cleaning?

No, they don't and that's perhaps because the outer surface is smooth and shiny. Thanks for asking, Lori, it made me check.