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Tanya's Tale

Started by TanyaG, September 27, 2024, 02:30:30 PM

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Annaliese

Quote from: TanyaG on April 27, 2025, 09:19:52 AMI came across a paper recently which did a good job of summarising the psychological issues trans people struggle with, so I've translated it from psychosocial speak into English!

I'm posting it because if you're in the early stages of suspecting you are trans, or dealing with having accepted you are trans, it provides a checklist which may help you make sense of some of the thoughts and emotions messing up your mind. It may also help when you first engage with a therapist, because you'll be able to pick up on important themes straight away and make faster progress.

The authors picked up on four main branches, which I've reduced to three along with adding some background and explanations to help get you going. It's as brief as I can make it and isn't exhaustive, but picks up on the major things that bug us.


Wow, this is a great article.  Thank you for putting it in terms that make it easier to grasp. This is right to the point. I have not been to individual therapy as of yet. I am trying to find my way by resources available to me. I have found this place very helpful. I have my first support group on 1 May. I do plan on seeking therapy in the future. I can definitely say by being here has helped tremendously. This article hits home and I can relate to so much. Thank you. 🤗
Always  look forward, there's no ⏳ to look  🔙. You are the person you were always meant to be.
Remember: if you focus too much on the destination,  you'll miss all the amazing stuff in-between.
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TanyaG

Quote from: Annaliese on April 27, 2025, 09:40:05 AMWow, this is a great article.  Thank you for putting it in terms that make it easier to grasp. This is right to the point.

Thank you, Annaliese! It took a slice of time to write and I was worried I'd condensed it down too much!

Annaliese

Quote from: TanyaG on April 27, 2025, 09:42:00 AMThank you, Annaliese! It took a slice of time to write and I was worried I'd condensed it down too much!
You're welcome,  not at all. It was something I think was on point.
Always  look forward, there's no ⏳ to look  🔙. You are the person you were always meant to be.
Remember: if you focus too much on the destination,  you'll miss all the amazing stuff in-between.
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TanyaG

The position of trans people in the UK has been in the news a lot recently, but because news and social media are fighting for readership, both have amplified the loudest voices on either side of the debate. With due respect to everyone involved, they've handed a megaphone to the last people who are going to help navigate us to a compassionate solution, because neither group is interested in anything but a crushing victory over the other side.

Despite all the heat and light, we've had a parade recently which was attended by a lot of people who aren't normally associated with the trans movement, one of a number of hints there's a pool of moderate people who'd be happy with a compromise.

Which is what we had before the Scottish Parliament made what the Supreme Court defined as an act of overreach.

Briefly, the situation now is that the law in England and Wales about trans people remains unchanged, but in Scotland, it has. In respect of England and Wales the Supreme Court has clarified how the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010 apply to both cis and trans people.

The emphasis throughout the debate has been on trans people who were assigned male at birth (AMAB) with scant attention paid to trans people assigned female at birth (AFAB), who gender activists on both sides would prefer not to exist. Non-binary trans people have been left out more or less completely, which I find astonishing given they form one third of all new referrals these days.

Why have AFAB trans people and non-binary folk been sidelined? They don't fit the narrative, which was successfully leveraged into a debate about women's toilets with the implication that all trans people in the UK were male sex offenders disguised as women. Nowhere in the media was there any mention that the majority of newly diagnosed trans people are AFAB, because it would have shot the campaigners' fox and killed the story.

The dust will not settle for a long time to come, but I'll get on to that. In the short term, the Equality Commission (EQ) has sprung into action and made numerous announcements about how it's going to get tough on hospitals which have allowed AMAB trans people access to women's wards. This is Britain, so it's natural for toilets to dominate the debate and another EQ pronouncement has focussed on women's toilets throughout the land. Changing rooms have been introduced as a kind of side salad.

The ultimate irony is the EQ is what's called a Quasi Autonomous Non Government Organisation, which should put it in the line for the axe, because the narrative about QANGOs is they are an undemocratic gravy train for political appointees whose chief executive's mouths are stuffed with gold. Right now our government is giving QANGOs the hard bear stare, so it's tempting to see the EQ's new found activism as an attempt to save itself from what was otherwise looking like a nasty encounter with the sharp side of the treasury's chopper.

What are we left with? The government must be wishing it never got involved in this one, but it's on them because a dimly sighted person could have seen what's coming. The Gender Recognition Act still applies and still gives trans people a 'protected characteristic' as does gender affirming surgery.

The EQ is making so much noise about cis women's rights they've accidentally flagged up an awareness that trans women also have rights under UK law which, yes, include access to toilets. No-one has any good ideas about how to solve this which don't involve substantial investment.

We still don't have a watertight legal definition of what a 'biological woman' is in the UK, despite everyone from the Supreme Court judges downward behaving as if one exists. It is still the case that anyone with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) is legally entitled to change their sex on legal documents including their birth certificate. The Supreme Court stated in its recent judgment that that includes the right for AMAB people to call themselves women and for AFAB people to call themselves men.

Since natural variability and the rarity of trans people ensures there are many times more cis women who look like men that there are trans women who look like men some innocent bystanders are going to find themselves in the firing line. A holder of a GRC has the legal right not to disclose they have one, so short of giving out 'biological women' certificates to be displayed on demand at every public toilet there's no clear way out of this one. Nobody seems to have thought about this.

In short, what was a mess we muddled through thanks to compassion and tolerance (ugly words in the like wars) has been turned into a political hot potato, which statements by the Equality Commission has hurled so high into the air it's impossible to ignore. Yet it will have to be fixed, somehow.

That will be interesting enough to watch on its own, but what everyone in the media, government and legislature is forgetting is soon we will have as many trans men and we have trans women, nor will it be long before the number of non-binary people equals either group. This will triple the number of trans voices and my advice for politicians and judges alike is we need to stop pretending this begins and ends with where people pee.

TanyaG

This weekend, the British Medical Association Residents' Committee voted to condemn the Supreme Court ruling on biological sex as scientifically illiterate. While in fairness, the Supreme Court's brief was to clarify what UK law means in the narrow terms of the Equality Act 2010 and the Gender Recognition Act 2004, the vote is significant. Why? Residents are doctors in training, about two thirds of whom are members of the BMA and who in total comprise just under 30% of the total BMA membership.

This means we're looking at the opinion of a substantial slice of medics in Britain. Although it is mentioned only in passing in most news stories, a key line of the Residents' statement is that they believe the Supreme Court decision will cause real-world hard to the trans, non-binary and intersex communities in the UK. Given that anti trans activists have left no stone unturned in their attempt to gaslight others into seeing all trans people as male abusers in disguise, this was a brave and much needed declaration.

The Residents Committee press release drew immediate and predictable responses from the usual suspects, which make entertaining reading, because taken at face value, the organisations concerned don't consider the majority of doctors in the UK aged under about 32 know enough about medicine to be able to treat them.

Which should prove interesting, because in a few years, the Residents will be senior doctors and what are the objectors going to do then?

The Residents are the people who will be staffing gender affirming services in the future and their views deserve respect because few understand the complex relationship between sex and gender identity better than doctors fresh out of medical school. It would be tough to find another group of similar size whose faces don't go blank at the mention of such apparent minutiae as 5 alpha-reductase type 2 deficiency but instead think 'intersex,' nor one whose knowledge of embryology is so great as to understand just how complicated human development is.

Part of the Residents' statement makes it clear that they, as most doctors do, understand sex and gender as complex aspects of humanity, which are independent of each other, even if gender usually aligns with sex. It has scarcely been possible to leave medical school since the 1980s without being aware of this, yet the Residents' critics are making desperate efforts to portray this teaching as indoctrination by trans activists. No evidence has been put forward to support the activists' accusation, nor can there be, because it is a flat out lie.

Is the Residents' Committee announcement pleasing? Yes. Is it unexpected? No, and I'll get onto that, but it's another sign that Gen X and Millennials are taking a much more compassionate view of trans issues than Boomers. There are plenty of Boomers who are good with trans, just as there are Gen X who feel the opposite way, but within the UK the overall trend has been toward an age-based split in attitude between older antis and younger pros.

What do older groups fear? Don't forget many of them were born long before the Equality Act, against which members of parliament fought a rearguard action until 2010, when the last pockets of resistance were overwhelmed by the obsolesce of their views. A lot of Boomers had to work through that era, the consequences of which are still being unpicked (women's pensions remain a live issue) and memories of how hard they had to fight for justice remain strong.

You would think any group which has had to fight for its cause would be sympathetic to the next group to find itself in a similar situation, but human nature doesn't work like that. Instead, having won its own battle, each group disarms and joins the establishment in the fight to ensure its successors' claim to compassion is denied, in a kind of weird Stockholm syndrome merry go round. So while it's possible to understand Boomer women's attitudes to the rights they won, as a member of their generation who supported them to the hilt, I'm not impressed with the vitriol they've focused on a group they are not only statistically unlikely to meet, but who have every reason not to draw attention to themselves.

In passing its clarification of the law regarding the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the Equality Act 2010, the UK's Supreme Court has unwittingly pulled the cork from the bottle. What the Residents' Committee has helped to do is underline the law is a mess and that we've been limping along for far too long by pretending it isn't.

Trans people remain rare, but the Residents have been kind enough to point out that makes us too vulnerable to be forgotten or left to the vengeance of groups who've won their own fights against discrimination and are actively conspiring to stop others following in their footsteps.

Now the genie is out the bottle, it isn't going to go back in. Compassion is needed in this debate and it's fantastic to get some from the Residents Committee. Hey, I used to be a junior doctor, it was long ago, but I cared then and I still care now.

davina61

But then Labour have said birth sex for single sex wards.
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TanyaG

Quote from: davina61 on April 29, 2025, 03:53:00 AMBut then Labour have said birth sex for single sex wards.

This is the genie out the bottle and starting to play, so it depends on whether you're a half full or half empty person! The Equality Commission is bearing down on the NHS Executive, which is going to be interesting in itself, because both are Quangos and the NHSE is due for the chop. Starmer and Streeting appear to have got an inkling that the genie isn't going to be an easy one to handle, but they're stuck with the Supreme Court interpretation of the Equality Act 2010, which says 'biological sex' is the basic building block of the Act.

Not only that, they've got to deal with issues like trans men who haven't had bottom surgery and who become pregnant. Not to mention say, people with congenital androgen insensivity who are to all intents and purposes female outwardly, but are 46,XY and need gynae procedures. Or anyone non-binary, a group who are as forgotten on Susan's as they are everywhere else, but who are increasingly common. The genie says this isn't about single sex anything, it's about what do we do with the entire scope of trans?

One of the few groups who have grasped the implications of this are the Residents. They've stepped forward when they need not have done and they've addressed all of these points in a way no-one else has done. Because they will become the consultant physicians and surgeons of the future, they will lead GAC and if there's a key group to have on their side, they're it.

So while this isn't going to sort out straight away, it isn't like everyone's hand is against us. We have more support than we think.

Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: TanyaG on April 29, 2025, 04:33:11 AMThey've stepped forward when they need not have done and they've addressed all of these points in a way no-one else has done.
A most enlightening discussion, TanyaG! Probably a similar scenario is playing out in the US. But we will need to abide until the Orange-haired boy finally fades away before any substantial progress can be made overcoming all the hate and disinformation. Please continue to provide such thoughtful analyses of the contours of the battlefield. They give me hope.
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TanyaG

We have a new development, hot on the heels of the BMA Resident Doctors Committee declaring trans people need support on compassionate grounds at the weekend. The dust is still settling on that, but yesterday Britain's only publicly 'out' transgender judge declared she has backing to challenge the Supreme Court ruling in the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

To recap, the situation in the UK is the Supreme Court ruled on 16th of this month that in respect of the Equality Act 2010 (EA2010) the word 'woman' means 'someone whose biological sex is female'.

Less in the headlines is they have also confirmed that the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA2004) still applies and that someone who has either a Gender Recognition Certificate or has undergone Gender Reassignment Surgery remains a woman in the eyes of that Act.

Notice there is no mention here about transmen or non-binary people (despite the EA2010 protecting some transmen) because neither the EA2010 nor the GRA2004 mention non-binary folk. The Supreme Court ruling on 'what is a woman', is purely in within the scope of the EA and the fallout has been that no-one but people whose 'biological sex' is female can use female facilities.

Background: In the UK the number of trans people of all descriptions is thought to be about 0.5% right now. Non-binary people are becoming more frequent, although they probably represent a small fraction of that percentage right now, but if we assume half of that 0.5% were assigned male at birth (AMAB) and all of them have either started treatment with hormones and surgery, and have been out of their homes in the gender of their choice, that means we're talking one in four hundred of the population who might have accessed female facilities and who are trans.

This is in line with astronomer Piero Sicoli's calculation of the odds that asteroid 2023 DW would hit the earth. Could you name this asteroid? Did it fil your nights with fear in case it landed on a public toilet?

Whatever, keep this figure in mind, because there are pressure groups who are acting as if this tiny number of individuals (virtually all of whom desire more than anything else not to get noticed) are the thin end of a fifth column whose evil mission is to roll back women's rights in their entirety.

Being fair, there have been errors in force and direction on both sides (I'm particularly looking at you, Stonewall), which haven't done anything to lower the temperature, but we got to where we are now because the law relating to gender has been an accident waiting to happen for 21 years. That's on our government and its predecessors.

The judge who plans to bring the case to the ECHR had applied to be make a submission to the Supreme Court, only to be declined along with at least one other trans person. Yet the Supreme Court did hear the views of cis people, despite the case involving the protected rights of trans people.

Until a short time ago, the judge concerned was held up by the judiciary and the government as an example of how inclusive the legal system in the UK has become.

However, she resigned last year when became increasingly obvious her transness was being (this is not her word) exploited by a system which, as the Supreme Court judgment has demonstrated, did little more than tolerate trans rights under the GRA2004. She didn't mince her words in her conclusion that, 'the national situation is no longer such that it is possible in a dignified way to be both 'trans' and a salaried, fairly prominent judge in the UK.'

The legal system isn't exactly hot on women's rights, either, just count the number of female supreme court judges. Pale, male and stale doesn't begin to describe it.

So, our new heroine, and that's what she is because the path she's chosen will be a hard one, has made it clear the issues she's taking to the ECHR are relevant not only to transwomen, but to all women and especially women who are perceived as unfeminine.

The latter group are in the firing line now the genie is out the bottle, because unfeminine looking women are an order of magnitude more frequent than transwomen (remember, transwomen are at most 1:400 of the population) and it seems only a matter of time before women who don't match the stereotype of femininity are facing questions in toilets. God forbid we should come to this.

Our judge has also made the case she has female genitalia and that it's not safe for her and other transwomen who have had bottom surgery, to use men's toilets. Since a major plank of the anti trans movements campaign has been about making  women (who have female genitalia) safe from men (don't make me write it) this is slap your forehead stuff. But despite coming from the Journal of the Bleeding Obvious, it has taken all this time for someone to say it.

How will this appeal do? I have no idea, but I can't believe we'll ever find a better advocate, nor one as well resourced. One weakness of the Supreme Court decision is that while they glibly talk of 'biological sex' the attempts to define such a thing under UK law have failed to provide something which stands up to scientific scrutiny.

Intersex hasn't been mentioned, but the Supreme Court judgement leaves the majority of such people, who even anti trans campaigners would think of as being women, defined as men. So there's that, but there's also the issues the Residents Committee and our new judicial champion have raised, which are about compassion, dignity and respect, not one of which our opponents are willing to concede us right now.

TanyaG

The latest development is the Justice Secretary has responded to numerous MPs from different parties who have openly questioned the Supreme Court judgement. She said, 'I think it's disappointing since then that some individuals have sought to question the Supreme Court or cast aspersions, which is absolutely unacceptable'.

Noticeable about our Labour government's stance is that everyone from the Prime Minister down is doing their level best not to express their opinion on trans rights and the Justice Secretary was studiously careful only to comment on the Supreme Court's opinion as it related to the Equality Act 2010 (EA2010). So while the Justice Secretary is outraged, she's only outraged in respect of the EA2010 and her opinion is opaque on the wider ramifications of the decision.

The government would dearly like this all to go away, but it isn't happening. Once a genie has escaped, you neglect it at your peril.

As readers will be aware, the Gender Recognition Act 2004 is still law and still allows someone with a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) to alter their sex on their birth certificate and any other legal document without having to declare they have done so. People who have had gender affirming treatment acquire the same protected characteristic in the UK.

What the Justice Secretary specifically did not say is that if someone who has, say, a GRC and is a trans woman, no-one has the power to compel her to declare so. Which means that in situations where the Equality Act 2010 applies, it would remain a breach of the law to ask a person if they had a GRC.

So if a trans woman with a GRC chooses to enter EA2010 protected premises, such as a female toilet, unless they admit to having a GRC (which they need not) the only way for a cis woman to stop them entering the loos would be to challenge them. As I remarked in an earlier blog, this is not going to end well because there are many more cis women who look like men than there are trans women in total, so a lot of mistakes are going to get made.

This is madness but our politicians are being very, very slow to wake up to the pickle they find themselves in.

The government needs to stop wringing its hands and do what it's paid to do. Numerous MPs, a former High Court judge and a substantial slice of doctors in the UK have pointed out the need for compassion in this case, given trans people are a tiny minority, and far from being the community of predators some are so stridently making us out to be, need as much dignity and protection as any other minority.

In the same session came the news that the total prison population of trans people in England and Wales in 2023-24 was 295, 51 of whom are held in female prisons and 244 in male prisons. There was no split by sex assigned at birth, but the 244 will include trans men as well as trans women, I assume and the 51 probably is a mix too.

Women's rights campaigners have made a lot of noise about trans prisoners, leveraging a few well known cases in their attempt to portray all trans people as abusers. I've been trying to establish the number for ages, but since there were 97700 prisoners in England and Wales in 2023, this week's announcement means trans people form 0.26% of all prisoners.

Which, given that the Office for National Statistics states that trans people comprise 0.5% of the total population, means we are only half as likely to commit a crime as ordinary folk. In other words, far from being a bunch of cynical abusers, we are twice as honest as cis people.

TanyaG

#110
Yesterday the chairwoman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) waded into the fray to state that 'everyone needs to adjust to an interpretation of the law that differs from our previous understanding'. Baroness Falkner added that the Supreme Court's judgement was enormously consequential and criticised anyone seeking to undermine it.

The EHRC's position is that possessing a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) does not change a person's sex, for the purposes of the Equality Act 2010 (EA2010), which is inline with the Supreme Court decision.

Interim guidance from the EHCR, issued Friday, brings trans men into the frame for the first time, which is a new development, because among other things the guidance states:

'...trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men's facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.

...in some circumstances the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities.

...however where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use.'

This is a perfect illustration of what happens when you let the genie out.

I can't find any stories of cis men objecting to trans men using their toilets and so in practical terms, parts of the interim guidance look vaguely ridiculous. But it is a ridiculous situation we are in, because the Equality Act was passed fifteen years ago and the EHRC has only thought about this now?

What have they been doing all this time? The organisation costs a mint to run yet it too has hoped this issue would go away if they ignored it. Now the Supreme Court has flushed them out, they're in a hurry to sound businesslike. If you've read my previous blogs, you'll understand the EHRC is a form of QUANGO and we know what's going to happen to those.

What the EHRC has recognised though, is that between them the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the EA2010 put the entire UK in a fix. Nobody will say as much publicly, because to do so would be to criticise our legislators and don't forget we're not allowed to do that. But bottom line is they've managed to pass two incompatible pieces of legislation, leaving everyone to paper over the cracks for a decade and a half because there's no easy way of dealing with it.

The EHRC sees this and Falkner has confirmed the EHRC will issue guidance to resolve the issue of trans people being put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use, adding she was 'under no illusions this will make us universally popular'.

The good news is the EHRC hasn't done what the government has done, pulled a recyclable bag over its head and tried to ignore the genie's cackles. Instead, it has acted, acknowledged trans men exist, exercised compassion over the provision of facilities and hasn't poured more petrol on the fire for the pure joy of seeing the flames and hearing the screaming.

The EHRC announcement isn't music to my ears, but they have to comply and enforce the law because that's their job. They've accepted in doing so they need to look after the rights of everyone with protected characteristics and have made it explicit that includes trans people. Which is as much as we can expect in all fairness.

But, but, but... Once again, the EHRC announcement does not mention non-binary people (because they don't fall within the scope of either the EA2010, or the GRA 2004 (and hence Supreme Court judgment) and crucially, it does not include intersex people. That last one is going to drop straight into the genie's lap, because after the Supreme Court judgement, most intersex people are 'biological men' in the eyes of the law, despite having being assigned female at birth. And few them are aware of this.

In summary, as the paper is ripped off the cracks, the situation looks as messy as it in reality has been since 2010. Who knows where the genie will pop up next?

Lori Dee

Quote from: TanyaG on May 02, 2025, 04:06:39 AM'...trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men's facilities, as this will mean that they are no longer single-sex facilities and must be open to all users of the opposite sex.

I see this often among arguments from governments everywhere. What they claim they are trying to do is protect women from men being in their space for nefarious reasons. At the same time, they claim that transgender people suffer from a mental condition (gender dysphoria), but do not connect the dots to explore that further.

Mental processes drive human behavior. So what a person believes will affect how they act. Since transwomen believe they are women, there is extremely little chance that they are using women's spaces for nefarious reasons. The same applies to transmen. Yet the "powers that be" fail to even look to find statistics on women who transwomen assaulted in a single-sex space. Nor do they look for statistics on transmen assaulting men under the same conditions.

Given that transpeople as a group make up less than 1% of the population, and extrapolating the number of assaults (by anyone against anyone) in a single-sex space, they would find that the number is dangerously close to zero.

Logic and evidence seem to be things that are not required for legislatures to pass a law. They allow the courts to figure things out later while they move on to other things. There should be a law that forces the legislature to show a need, backed by evidence, for such laws before they can be enacted. But legislatures will never pass laws that limit their own power.
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davina61

What's the saying? The law is an ass!
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TanyaG

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 02, 2025, 08:51:10 AMLogic and evidence seem to be things that are not required for legislatures to pass a law. They allow the courts to figure things out later while they move on to other things.

Yes, that's more or less where it is, but what makes it worse is that we don't have a working legal definition of what 'biological sex' is even though the Supreme Court and everyone who discusses their ruling uses the term as if we do! Nowhere in the Supreme Court decision, or even in the EA2010 or the GRA2004 is 'biological sex' defined nor is there a reference to a statute which does define it.

The glorious thing is the EHRC has a duty toward the protected characteristic people with a GRC or who've had GAC share and just wait until they spell out what that's going to cost in terms of facility provision. Which they will do. I've a side bet the price tag nationally will be eye-watering and a compromise will have to be found, but watch this space!

TanyaG

Trigger warning: This piece contains references to the appalling practice of conversion therapy

In the sixties it was noticed that, 'almost all adult male transsexuals... gave histories of dressing up as girls and pretending to be women in their play as children'. Amazing to relate, this dressing up was construed as the cause of later gender identity issues, not as a symptom.

Having got this back to front, psychologists speculated that if this behaviour persisted into puberty, it was likely to become fixed. In their eyes, that was the worst of all possible outcomes and so a solution was needed because otherwise, the only option was surgery.

That's the theory of transsexualism in a nutshell, direct from the people who helped mould the hypothesis. I'm constantly amazed how many many trans people do not appreciate how intertwined the theory of transsexualism is was with what became known as conversion therapy, or that trans people were one of the first groups to be subjected to it.

The entanglement happened because the group of opinion-leading psychologists believed, as one paper succinctly put it, that, ''...sex reassignment for these males as adults is a palliative treatment in which the body is altered to fit the mind because the individual is no longer able on willing to change his mind to fit his body.'

Note the word, 'palliative'. In other words, sex reassignment, as it was then known, was seen as a last ditch treatment when all else was lost. Once you have seen the theory of transsexualism through this lens, it is hard to see it as anything other that what it is, because the need to avoid palliation was used to justify conversion therapy.

Most of the reports I've found in the literature from this time concern children assigned male at birth (AMAB) whose preference was for a feminine gender identity. It's important to know that fifty years ago, gender affirming care didn't exist as such and transgender wasn't even a concept, because of the emerging theory of transsexualism. At this time, attitudes to incongruent gender identity were so radically different most professionals classified it as deviance, which was in line with the advice of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, aka the DSM.

It was also very common for psychologists to associate feminine gender identity in AMAB with future homosexuality. Why? We can thank Freud for that, because he collapsed the distinctions between sex, sexuality and gender, making the latter derivative of little more than anatomical differences between sexes. The concept of transsexualism was predicated upon this, which is why it's so strongly binary - ultimately this was what made it it fall apart in the 1990s when it became accepted that gender identity wasn't an either/or situation.

I quickly discovered a dozen papers, including some by Money, the psychologist who 'treated' David Reimer. Money's name comes often amongst transsexual theorists and was joint editor with Green on one of the core textbooks on the subject, which I suspect members here do not know or they possibly wouldn't be so free with the use of the words transsexualism or transvestism, because Blanchard was a fully paid up member of this group.

Some of the papers are just plain wild, my favourite being a case report about 'John' who had HRT and progressed to a 36B cup size before having an exorcism and faith healing during which it is said their breasts vanished (needless to say this could not be confirmed independently). However, despite its many rivals the poster child for all of these papers was published in 1974 by two psychologists at Harvard, Rekers and Lovaas.

Their case report begins: 'Young boys with feminine sex-typed behaviors have recently become the object of increased psychological interest, perhaps because of growing evidence that childhood cross-gender manifestations are indicative of later adult sexual abnormalities; e.g., transvestism, transsexualism,
or some forms of homosexuality.'

The report is written about a boy named Kraig, who 'had a history of cross-dressing since he was 2 yr old; at that time, he also began to play with cosmetic items of his mother and grandmother. When the mother's clothing was unavailable, Kraig very frequently improvised in cross-dressing.'

Nowadays we would take that as a very strong indicator that Kraig was trans, but wait, because Rekers and Lovaas wrote, 'Kraig's feminine behavior was increasingly leading him to social isolation and ridicule. Boys like Kraig are typically scorned by their peers and live a miserable social life. While society probably could afford to become more tolerant with individuals with sex-role deviations, the facts remain that it is not tolerant, and, realistically speaking, it is potentially more difficult to modify society's behaviors than Kraig's, in order to relieve Kraig's suffering.'

Notice how the authors conflate feminine traits with homosexuality, which remained in the DSM as a mental disorder until 1987. Gay sex did not become legal throughout the US until 2003 as far as i know, courtesy of Lawrence vs. Texas.

Rekers and Lovaas justified their subsequent actions on the grounds that it was more compassionate to change Kraig than it was to support him in the gender he identified. This is how many of our parents will have rationalised their behaviour when they were making our lives hell for being gender incongruent. It was for our own good.

What the Rekers and Lovaas did next with Kraig is called 'operant conditioning,' the shaping of behaviour through punishment and reward, although in this case the punishment and reward were (mostly) emotional. Kraig was then aged about five.

The two set up various tables packed with toys judged suitable for masculine play (including a toy machine gun, plastic soldiers, and miniature airplanes) and feminine play (a doll with feminine clothes, a crib, and a set of toy dishes.) Then they manipulated his mother's reaction to Kraig playing with each type of toy to change his behaviour.

'During the session, the mother was helped to extinguish feminine behavior (verbal and play) by instructions over the earphones such as, "stop talking to him now", "pick up the book and read", "ignore him now", "look away from him". Immediately after the mother's correct response, the experimenter verbally reinforced that response; e.g., "good", "great, that's what we want", "that's right", "excellent". Similarly, if the subject picked up a masculine toy when the mother was not watching, the experimenter instructed her, "quick, look at him now", or "talk to him now".

These sessions were backed up by more of the same at home, along with a system of tokens, the award of red ones for feminine behaviour leading, amongst other things, to being spanked by his father. Three years later, when the authors followed up Kraig for the last time, he was no longer exhibiting any feminine behaviours and had developed some masculine ones that even the authors had to admit were sociopathic. At that stage, he was but eight years old.

This, Rekers and Lovaas called progress, though they added the caveat: 'Only follow-up evaluations on these children at 15 to 20 yr of age... will allow us to claim a preventative treatment for extreme adult sexual deviations of transvestism, transsexualism, or some forms of homosexuality.' It makes you want to put your head in your hands, though it probably didn't read as badly then as it does now.

Rekers and Lovaas' view was under fire by 1977, when Winkler questioned the many value judgements the two had made, adding that, 'Ability to behave in both "masculine" and "feminine" ways according to the demands of different situations would seem a more desirable goal than strengthening only one type of sex-role behavior'.

Winkler's final paragraph included the words, 'It appears that Rekers and Lovaas have not attended to research indicating that the popular mythology about sex roles may be misleading, and therefore fail to see a discrepancy between conforming to parental wishes and promoting social adjustment in the psychological sense'.

Kraig wasn't the only luckless child to go through 'treatment' of this sort and as far as I know, no systematic long term follow up was carried out on him or anyone else who had similar treatment by the authors who dished it out. Which is odd, because given the volume of research I can find, this type of conversion therapy must have been widespread between the 1960s and the 1980s.

Why the experiment was carried out at all baffles me, because the only difference between parents making a child's life hell for playing with the 'wrong' gender toys and a pair of psychologists doing the same is parents don't usually write it up in a scientific journal. More to the point, given the experiences I and so many people here have had, I'm inclined to wonder if the 'treatment' was the end of it for Kraig as Rekers and Lovaas supposed.

One reason I believe it may not have been the end of Kraig's story is that a 2024 study of 6601 people who had been subject to what we now call conversion therapy found strong correlations with post traumatic stress disorder and depression. Even the recall of their exposure to this kind of therapy was associated with a range of anxiety and depressive symptoms in people from sexual orientation and gender identity minorities.

Despite this and similar findings from many other papers, conversion therapy remains legal in many countries including the UK.

This is but one of the area where our Parliament has sat on its hands over transgender issues. A ban was on the cards a couple of years ago, but the present government has abandoned it for fear of upsetting religious groups. Given the churches' admitted failure to root out child abuse, including the recent scandal that led to the resignation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, this does not seem wise.

The good news is conversion therapy is discredited amongst all but a tiny percentage of psychologists today, the bad is that parents everywhere are still permitted to go right ahead with their own version of what happened half a century ago. In most western countries, physical abuse of children is against the law, yet parents remain free to subject them to the most appalling psychological abuse if they aren't gender normative. Which the founding theorists of transsexualism fully supported, so why do we still use this word?

TanyaG

#115
Local elections were held over part of the UK on Thursday last and the result shocked the two main parties, the Conservatives (broadly equivalent to the Democrats in the US) and Labour (socialist in the past, but now only just to the left of the Conservatives).

Reform, the new kids on the block, basically ate the Conservative's lunch, took two thirds of their seats and if the results were duplicated in a general election, would wipe them out. Reform also cannibalised Labour's vote, to a similar extent, especially in seats which had voted for Brexit and felt left behind by the other parties after no benefits came their way. Which will be why Reform took control of Durham, which has historically been a Labour stronghold.

Labour form our government and will continue to do so for about three years, but they're going to have to respond to Reform's challenge and that will involve doing things instead of just talking about them. While Reform are popular right now, their manifesto is full of un-costed policies and while the party is trying to make them less visible, it also is full of people who have openly supported what both Labour and the Conservatives have portrayed as extreme right wing demagogues. These have proven tough for Reform to control in the past and likely will do so in the future.

Right now, Reform's manifesto is packed with magical thinking, the implication being they will succeed at sorting problems which brought down three Prime Ministers in quick succession and pay for a massive tax giveaway by snapping their fingers. It's impossible not to notice in photos that Reform's candidates and supporters are routinely pale and middle aged, including some women despite the party's avowal to crack down on DEI - which is the wellspring of women's rights.

What does Reform mean for trans people?

Specifically, Reform plans to 'ban transgender ideology in primary and secondary schools'. The manifesto says:

'No gender questioning, social transitioning or pronoun swapping. Inform parents of under 16s about their children's life decisions. Schools must have single sex facilities.'

The last is not a policy because it's the law, but Reform also wants to scrap EU regulations with immediate effect. According to them 6,700 EU laws remain, but they haven't pointed out that these would have to be voted down one by one, with many needing replacement. One reason we retain so many is because it would take at least four years to do that, during which time the government would have little spare capacity to do anything else.

The Conservatives balked at the task after taking us out of the EU, abandoning it to Labour, who have done their sums and worked out they'd be doing nothing else for the foreseeable future, during which time the country would still need to be governed. Many of these laws aren't particularly EU specific but many preserve worker's rights to a fair salary and conditions.

Reform suggest they would take us out of the European Court of Human Rights, but that would mean dismantling not only the Northern Ireland Agreement but the Equality Act 2010, given that otherwise, the EA and the Equality and Human Rights Commission are going to be in Reform's face with the full backing of the law. So I'd expect Reform to make leaving the ECHR a priority, or they'll look foolish.

Reform also plan to review the Online Safety Bill, because their manifesto states: 'Social media giants that push baseless transgender ideology and divisive Critical Race theory should have no role in regulating free speech.'

Social media giants don't regulate free speech in the UK, nor do governments, because the constitution does that. We're a constitutional democracy and this is where Reform really go on the attack, because the constitution puts limits on what governments can do.

Once you're far enough through their manifesto Reform make it explicit they will replace the EA2010. This is the basis of women's rights in the UK, let alone those of minorities and you don't have to look at Reform's leadership for long or be aware of what they've said in the past to realise many see women as another minority, so this will be interesting to watch if it comes to pass.

Although the manifesto doesn't mention it, I would expect Reform to dismantle the Gender Recognition Act 2004 once they were in power. Why? Because if they take the axe to the EA2010, they'll more or less have to axe the GRA too, because the recent Supreme Court ruling highlighted the interdependency of the two acts.

Reform do not look like good news for trans people or any other minority. For good measure, Reform began to drop hints yesterday about wanting to 'remoralise' Britain's youth, which for anyone old enough to remember, has echoes of Maggie Thatcher's government when it wasn't just, 'Don't say gay,' resulting in the ill fated Section 28, it was, 'Don't do sex unless you're married.'

Reform don't mention 'Victorian values,' specifically, as Thatcher loved to do, but their manifesto embraces them without mentioning any of the negatives those values embraced, including the lack of any worker's rights, the lack of a universal franchise and the reduction of women to chattels. If this is Reform's take on what made Britain great, they may not be great for anyone who isn't 46,XY, white, straight, cis and middle aged.

davina61

Yet Nazi rhetoric and Trumpism ,  the country will be dragged down like the states is now.
a long time coming (out) HRT 12 2017
GRS 2021 5th Nov

Jill of all trades mistress of non
Know a bit about everything but not enough to be clever

TanyaG

Following the UK Supreme Court ruling the Football Association (FA) has announced trans women will no longer be able to play in women's game in England from June 1st onward.

While this doesn't affect many players, because no trans women are registered as professional footballers and only twenty eight amateurs are, it will clearly be a serious disappointment for everyone who is affected. English Netball and the English Cricket Board have either followed suit or are expected to do so shortly, while athletics, cycling and aquatics have already implemented outright bans.

The reaction of the government has been much the same as it was to protests by politicians about the Supreme Court ruling, with the Prime Minister's spokesperson once again washing their hands of responsibility, stating it was the responsibility of sporting bodies to set their own rules.

It's already apparent which sports are most likely to show compassion and it seems the FA will not be one, given a former chairman has been quoted by the BBC growling about 'consequences' for the senior officials who recently decided trans women could play in the women's game.

The FA only just changed its rules on transgender eligibility a few weeks ago, so amidst much gloating and score settling (sportsmanship having become a rare quality in English football) English Netball's new guidelines look positively enlightened.

From September English Netball will create a new 'mixed' category which will allow people of any gender identity to play. Perhaps the chairman of EN should invite the Prime Minister to an away day and introduce him to the idea that there are alternatives to sitting on the fence pretending to look the other way?

In a further development, Justice Lord Hodge, the deputy president of the Supreme Court of the UK, has said that the recent ruling should not be seen as a triumph by one side over the other and has reiterated that the law still gives protection to transgender people.

Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: TanyaG on May 04, 2025, 06:06:20 AMSpecifically, Reform plans to 'ban transgender ideology in primary and secondary schools'. The manifesto says:

'No gender questioning, social transitioning or pronoun swapping. Inform parents of under 16s about their children's life decisions. Schools must have single sex facilities.'
The shallow end of the pool seems to be getting deeper, TanyaG. The doctrine of hate and genocide is at least as entrenched in the States as in the Reform movement. I'm not sure waiting for old people to die will be an effective survival strategy for us. But I don't pretend to know what else to do.
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davina61

Stand up for our rights and get as much support as we can and make it clear to the general population what they are letting themselves in for. 
a long time coming (out) HRT 12 2017
GRS 2021 5th Nov

Jill of all trades mistress of non
Know a bit about everything but not enough to be clever