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dreams and hrt

Started by Mrs. Oliphant, March 30, 2025, 07:41:03 PM

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TanyaG

#20
Quote from: Iztaccihuatl on April 02, 2025, 02:40:36 PMI have to point out that the above highlighted statement is incorrect and dangerous. We all have a gender identity and most of us have been brought up and taught mannerisms and behaviors inconsistent with our gender identity, which is the reason we are here on this site. While it is possible to bring somebody up on the wrong gender identity (at least for a while), it can cause psychological harm.

Your interpretation of that highlight was one I took great care expressly not to express. Nowhere in the comment you've picked out, nor anywhere else in this thread, nor in any other comment I have made on Susan's, have I ever supported the idea of bringing someone up in a gender they did not consent to being brought up in.

It is only because it is possible to bring up someone in a gender which is not congruent with the sex they are assigned at birth that it is possible for some lucky trans people to avoid the consequences that I and others here were left to deal with for our entire subsequent lives. As an example, we've had a member here who was bringing up her child who was assigned male at birth to be gendered female because that was what her child wished. They are in Russia and I hope they haven't been crushed by the system because I haven't seen a post from them in a while. Would you forbid that?

If it is the wish of a minor and their parents comply with it, it is as just to bring up someone assigned male at birth as a female as it to bring up someone assigned female at birth as a male if they wish it. I guess your misreading might be around the words, '...but it's rarely done,' but that's because a. trans people like us aren't common and b. because how many of us were brought up to be gendered in a way that was not congruent with the sex we were assigned at birth? This is the core of the problem most of us face.

That's what my statement meant and I cannot understand how it could be possibly misread in the way you have, because to do so is to imply I have written things I most definitely have not!
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Sephirah

Ummm... I think there may have been a massive case of misunderstanding here. I'm kind of with Tanya here. She was very careful to state "assigned at birth" rather than any sort of identity. I kind of think what she said was... I mean, she's right. She isn't making any sort of commentary about anything other than stating that it's perfectly possible for someone to be in an environment where they learn things, and get shown and told things they later go on to either embrace, or wish to unlearn because it doesn't fit their self image and identity. It's kind of how we all grow up, unless you get raised in a jungle by chimps.

I don't think what she said was incorrect, or dangerous. It's just factual. And deliberately worded.

I'm not sure I would personally use Gender in those terms but she clearly stated the context so, fair enough. That's a whole separate thing, lol. It's easy to read into stuff sometimes and see things that the poster didn't intend, just by the nature of the internet. Happens all the time.

On the subject of the thread though... well... one thing... there are no stupid questions. :) Only the ones you don't ask. Someone much wiser than me said that, and they were right. :P
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

kat2

I am sure regarding your dreams you will find your own way, it is best to do what is right for you we each have or have had very different journeys, just be true to yourself and talk with your therapist, they will get to know you best.
I am best described on forums as Transsexual
My outlook will be very different to most
I came from a time when gender dysphoria was looked upon as a mental health condition.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on March 30, 2025, 07:41:03 PMAnd my question is this: if I embark on this journey, will I feel like the woman in my dreams while I am awake?

Maybe. That's about the closest I can say.

The thing about dreams is... they are free of the world. Free of physical restraints. It's kind of something that goes hand in hand with different therapies involving altered states of consciousness and trance states. During these periods, we are free to just be. And who we are is free of limitations. It's the playground of the Mind, and the Self. Imagery and emotion. Intuition and the deepest parts of ourselves.

Mrs. Oliphant... I know the kind of dreams you're referring to. I have them often. It's a re-writing of the world. It's your mind making things feel real. You don't dream about being trans. You are just you. And while it lasts, it's a no-brainer. Then you wake up and you're like "oh, right..." and you just want to go back to sleep.

I hope so. I know that a lot of folks here are in a good place, and happy with who they are, after going through this. So I... deeply hope so. Like watching a movie though, I'm not sure anything can do as good a job of creating a world as our own mind. But if it's close enough... maybe that's okay?

Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

Mrs. Oliphant

Thanks so much, Sephirah-- in so many ways, the dreams are enough. The woman I dream I am has experienced everything from falling in love to being a mother (though I have never dreamt, as far as I can remember, of actually giving birth). And I still dream of being a man. Some days, I have no desire to cross dress. Some days, I can't connect to the woman I know is also me. A week ago, I was desperate to begin hrt. Today, I'm comfortable in what is now. Susan's Place has helped me accept my own contradictions, ambiguities, and absurdities. I have dumped so much of my angst on so many people. Yet, no one has turned their back to me. Thanks.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 03, 2025, 04:39:12 PMThanks so much, Sephirah-- in so many ways, the dreams are enough. The woman I dream I am has experienced everything from falling in love to being a mother (though I have never dreamt, as far as I can remember, of actually giving birth). And I still dream of being a man. Some days, I have no desire to cross dress. Some days, I can't connect to the woman I know is also me. A week ago, I was desperate to begin hrt. Today, I'm comfortable in what is now. Susan's Place has helped me accept my own contradictions, ambiguities, and absurdities. I have dumped so much of my angst on so many people. Yet, no one has turned their back to me. Thanks.

No one is gonna do that, honey. This whole thing is a minefield. All we ask here is that you be yourself. Whoever that is. Express it, try to understand it, look for help, answers, even just a hug. We are all infinitely complicated. There is no wrong answer. The only thing that matters is that you can get to a place where you can look at yourself every day and be "I'm okay."

That's what this site was founded on. That's why we have so many people willing to listen and just talk to folks based on their own life experience.

Whoever you are, people will get you. Trust me. Susan's is rather unique in that aspect.

All you have to do is... embrace yourself. The rest will fall into place, okay?

Seriously though... don't ever think there's anything like a dumb question. Explore and express. It's the Susan's motto. We all learn from each other. We all make each other better. One of the best parts of the human experience. <3
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: Sephirah on April 03, 2025, 04:46:49 PMNo one is gonna do that, honey. This whole thing is a minefield. All we ask here is that you be yourself. Whoever that is. Express it, try to understand it, look for help, answers, even just a hug. We are all infinitely complicated. There is no wrong answer. The only thing that matters is t
Yeah. Thanks, Sephirah. The hug thing is important right now. I just tried to talk to my daughter about being genderfluid. She brushed me off. Something like, 'you're not transgender?' As though there were degrees of who I am. This is just a moment that will pass. And I will still be who I am. I was going to ask her to help me pick out a pretty dress and maybe a little makeup for a photo to use as my avatar. I'll probably hold off on doing that.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 03, 2025, 06:58:21 PMYeah. Thanks, Sephirah. The hug thing is important right now. I just tried to talk to my daughter about being genderfluid. She brushed me off. Something like, 'you're not transgender?' As though there were degrees of who I am. This is just a moment that will pass. And I will still be who I am. I was going to ask her to help me pick out a pretty dress and maybe a little makeup for a photo to use as my avatar. I'll probably hold off on doing that.

I am so sorry you had to go through that. Let me offer you a giant squeezy cyberhug, honey. I know it isn't the same. And there's no real substitute for feeling like you got the wind knocked out of your sails by those closest to you. You are right though, it will pass. People who don't get this, they don't get it. A lot take it personally. "mom, why are you trying to get all the attention in my life?! Mom, why do you have to do this right now?!"

You have to give people the chance to grow up, as you have. And realise that life isn't all about their social media accounts or whatever else.

It will happen, honey. It will. The one thing we always have in common is how we feel. These days... kids literally don't care about anyone with a physical body. They are glued to their phones. If you're not a screen name, you literally don't matter.

Time will move on honey. It will.

Listen, if you ever want to vent to someone. Just get out stuff you want to get out. Purge all the crap you might be feeling... shoot me a PM okay? I am a good listener. I don't judge. And sometimes it helps to purge all the stuff people put on you.

You are not alone, okay? You're not. You are beautiful and you matter. *big hugs* <3
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

TanyaG

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 03, 2025, 06:58:21 PMI just tried to talk to my daughter about being genderfluid. She brushed me off. Something like, 'you're not transgender?' As though there were degrees of who I am. This is just a moment that will pass. And I will still be who I am. I was going to ask her to help me pick out a pretty dress and maybe a little makeup for a photo to use as my avatar. I'll probably hold off on doing that.

My experience has been you have to allow people to go at their own pace and if it takes us years to come with being trans, and that with us experiencing the dysphoria on an hourly basis, imagine how long it takes for someone on the outside looking in to adjust?

One thing that doesn't help here is dismissing people who are dismissing us. I should know, I've tried it. Many, perhaps most of us reach a point where we accept we are trans, at which point, we're a caterpillar yet to metamorphose into whatever butterfly we will become. Accepting being trans allows us to see the possibility of metamorphosis, but people who know us well, only see the caterpillar.

I did psychotherapy with trans people from the late 1980s after a UK organisation asked for professionals willing to do it. I never told anyone I was trans because that isn't how it works, it's about the client not the therapist, but everyone I saw always told a variation of your or my story. It was when I realised it was the same story regardless of which way they were travelling, whether they were assigned female at birth or assigned male, that the penny dropped.

A significant burden trans people face is in order to retain friends and family, we end up doing their psychotherapy. Contacts of trans people don't often think, 'I should seek help with adjusting to my partner/relative/friend's' revelation, they think instead of the impact on themselves. Sure, you get exceptions like Ginny, but they are ultra rare.

I was getting people making eight hour journeys to see me for a one hour session and felt guilty about that, so I started asking my clients to bring any significant others along, the bait being a free session. I openly admit this was mostly out of my own curiosity, but I thought it was marginally ethical because of that, so I ran it past my psychotherapy mentor... and found myself having to explain the entire trans scenario to them. I was like, 'What?' but you're old enough to remember what it was like back then, Oli.

It was long ago now and we were still in the era of transsexualism, where being trans was seen as being trapped in the wrong body and the solution as an (almost) purely hormonal and surgical one of 'change the body to match the desired sex'.

It was as binary as you could get and even for those who felt trapped in the wrong body, as many  do, having what was called sexual reassignment surgery (SRS as was) fell far short of what needed to done for someone who had gone through it to be accepted by society.

That era completely left out non-binary and gender-fluid people. When that realisation dawned  splitting out gender and sex became a hot topic, driven by issues such intersex people, many of whom are genetically male, but phenotypically female and also the then emerging issue of AFAB trans folk, many of whom are non-binary. Without gender in the ring, you can't begin to address those groups, let alone bring anything useful to them. Gender as an issue extends far beyond trans anyway.

It was my sessions with significant others (SOs) which made me realise why post SRS people were struggling. There were two types of SO, those who'd known my clients 'before' and those who only met them 'after'. Neither group had a good understanding of how much distress their attitudes to trans were causing.

The 'before' group had a mountain to climb because they were having to adjust and cope with memories of how my clients were before transition and do what they saw as rewiring their entire relationship with them, even if it was non-sexual. They also had to complete the task the 'after' group was faced with, which was that everyone who presented to me was having issues aligning their gender to their post GAC appearance.

By gender, I mean gender as many healthcare organisations from the WHO downward increasingly define it, which is the norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman (or a man, as many of my post surgery patients now were), Gender in this sense takes at least a decade of constant drip feeding and practice to learn and also, to unlearn. This was cutting both ways.

Some of my clients had had very successful surgery and hormone treatment, but were only part way through reprogramming their gendered behaviours. A few were able to switch gender at will, but even those who had completed the reprogramming (and a lot hadn't even realised what deep behavioural changes are involved) were still having to cope with SOs who were having frequent WTF experiences because they were expecting different gendered behaviour.

WTFs were more frequent in SOs of clients who had previously overcompensated on gender (either masculinity or femininity depending on which they were going) of clients who had themselves accepted they were trans. It gradually dawned on me that gender affirming care (GAC) involves not only us completing tasks in a series of stages, but our SOs and contacts doing an abbreviated version of what we do.

Those stages might be laid out as acceptance, sex transition, and retuning of gender (as in the WHO defined sense) to match our post treatment sex. The three don't have to be completed in that order, but all they have to be completed. What no-one tells us is there will be a long hang-over after we complete those tasks before everyone who knows us before we started them adjusts, nor anyone we've come into contact with before we've completed stage three will also have to adjust.

People who aren't vested in us through friendship or love may crap out early on because it's too much effort. But people who are vested in us won't find it easy and may well resort to denial of what's happening to us instead of pitching in and helping. When I read people's stories here of how adjusting to being trans is tearing them apart, I think of how SOs cope and I'm more understanding.

Sometimes we need to help our SOs as much as we need them to help us and perhaps that's a message worth sending, that this is vitally important to you, but you also know it is vitally important to her. You're right, the dress is off with your daughter for now. But since she's sticking around, the omens for future trips are good. Patience is all.
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: TanyaG on April 04, 2025, 03:41:19 AMSometimes we need to help our SOs as much as we need them to help us and perhaps that's a message worth sending, that this is vitally important to you, but you also know it is vitally important to her. You're right, the dress is off with your daughter for now. But since she's sticking around, the omens for future trips are good. Patience is all.
TanyaG, you are a godsend. My beautiful daughter has so many issues of her own (bipolar, ASD, seizure) and I am always hypersensitive to where she is at, at any given moment. I assure you; I will be patient. She has taught me that much and much more than that. She is in a stable relationship and happy. She is more accepting of the new face I've revealed to her than anyone else has been. Someday, we will visit a boutique together or, more likely, look through the women's fashions on Amazon. I found great comfort in your words.
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