UK Supreme Court says legal definition of ‘woman’ excludes trans women...

[Lori Dee]

Getting a "cleaning up" law through parliament may be an option.

We have a similar situation in the U.S.

The Supreme Court's function is to interpret the law according to what the legislature intended. That still leaves situations where cases are not clear and the Supreme Court can (and has) changed its interpretations. The only remedy is for the legislature to pass a law that is unambiguous so that there is no room for a different interpretation.

[ChrissyRyan]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, is it a duck?

Not exactly a great analogy but. . .

There will be some doubters.

[SoupSarah]

1. I am more likely now to go for a vaginoplasty than a vulvoplasty. I don't want to give any more reason for someone to claim I am not a woman. And I'm not saying it would ever come to the point of an inspection, but who knows where this dystopian Brave New World will end?

2. I am feeling more likely to go soon to Thailand and have it done privately. Following a death in the family I now have the means to fund this. I could wait another year or more for the NHS Parkside team to come to me but who knows if this ruling will affect state-funded gender surgery in the UK? And the longer I have a bulge below the less confident I now feel under the glare of the sister guards. @SoupSarah I'd be interested in your response on these two points?

Both points are very personal, and I can only talk about my own experiences with the caveat that they may not be the best for you.. but my responses  would be,
1, re Vaginoplasy vc Vulvoplasy - I never had any doubt of wanting a vagina. To me (and I emphasize to me and do not denegrate any other person here who had different or disagree's) it was as important as socially transitioning, for me it is part of being a woman. The "safety of the surgery", issue is a mute one, both are inherently dangerous, one carries slightly more risk than the other - I analogies it as crossing a 4 lane motorway or a 5 lane motorway.. and the vast, vast majority of all these surgeries go on without a hitch. Regardless of your sexuality or orientation, a vagina is a part of the pleasure, even if you plan on being alone.. It is much harder to go from a vulvoplasy to a vaginaplasy than the other way round.. AND YES, I KNOW.. I don't want to start this war again.. for some people it makes sense to them... again, this is MY opinion on the subject. Please feel free to hold your own.

2, I have never been to Thailand, I have heard good, bad and ugly things about surgery there. Some people I know say it was superb.. others that it was dirty and they went from one infection to another. I really don't know. I cannot say yeah or nay. I do know that the UK is one of the safest places to have surgery - that if you need a follow up (And I did) it is a train ride away and a day trip, not a plane and a weekend or more.. The service I received at Parkside was remarkably good - better than a lot of 5* hotels I have stayed in and on par with the best of the best of hospital care here in the USA.. I was lucky to have the money to pay for it to be done, I understand the priveledge that afforded me - but, seriously, if I had enough to go to Thailand, but not quite enough for the UK.. I would save up the difference or wait for the NHS

Whatever the outcome of this ruling is, I doubt the NHS will be reducing any care. This is after all defined as a medical problem now and not a mental health one. That is not legislation, that is just plain science. The NHS and it's doctors have a 'Duty of Care' and the only current cure for gender dysphoria that works is transition.

The current ruling would mean that trans-men could access female only spaces that trans-women are denied access to. Maybe a unity of trans people in the UK could show how stupid a situation this is.. I wonder how tolerant places banning trans women would be of having guys go use their services completely legally?.. And then the litigation could start and maybe common sense would prevail.

[SoupSarah]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, is it a duck?

Not exactly a great analogy but. . .

There will be some doubters.

Ahhh dear auto correct.. its never duck! and I don't have any more to give.

[SoupSarah]

We have a similar situation in the U.S.

The Supreme Court's function is to interpret the law according to what the legislature intended. That still leaves situations where cases are not clear and the Supreme Court can (and has) changed its interpretations. The only remedy is for the legislature to pass a law that is unambiguous so that there is no room for a different interpretation.

SO there is this thing ... and it is .. 'who is going to be policing this?'...  I mean,  I live as a woman, I have a birth certificate, passport, driving licence all saying I am me, and female. I do not have any male identifiers on my body and even my daughters call me mom and my husband calls me his wife.. Who is going to say, 'hey Sarah, you cannot come in here because you once lived as a guy'?.. My hubby even said, 'even if they make you drop your pants they still would not know'..  and so, my desire to remain "stealth" seems likely to be the only way a 'trans' woman will be able to live her life in the UK now.. Hide your GRC,, wave your birth certificate and passport in their faces and deny you are anything other than a biological woman.. let them take you to court to prove otherwise.

[Tills]

SO there is this thing ... and it is .. 'who is going to be policing this?'...  I mean,  I live as a woman, I have a birth certificate, passport, driving licence all saying I am me, and female. I do not have any male identifiers on my body and even my daughters call me mom and my husband calls me his wife.. Who is going to say, 'hey Sarah, you cannot come in here because you once lived as a guy'?.. My hubby even said, 'even if they make you drop your pants they still would not know'..  and so, my desire to remain "stealth" seems likely to be the only way a 'trans' woman will be able to live her life in the UK now.. Hide your GRC,, wave your birth certificate and passport in their faces and deny you are anything other than a biological woman.. let them take you to court to prove otherwise.

Thanks Sarah for your thoughtful and helpful comments about surgery in the UK. I think you said privately at Parkside was c. £25,000? I think you make really good points. I had my other two surgeries at PAI and they were superb but there were some issues, especially around the hospital care in the immediate aftermath of the facial surgery which left a lot to be desired. By the time I factor in the hotels and flights I'd probably be looking at close to £15,000 in Thailand. Hmmm ... you've given me real food for thought.

As for this issue about policing etc, I have a friend who pioneeringly transitioned decades ago. She decided on the stealth option and basically re-lived her life. She has a friendship group with many females. She's now scared that if she is outed her whole world will fall in.

As for the GRC, will they still be issuing them? Mine is in the pipeline but will it now produce a female birth certificate or will that end?

And when it comes to passport renewal, will they remove the F and make it M?

As for straightening this all out in Parliament, I have zero faith left whatsoever that this Labour Gov't will back trans rights. They have been a bitter bitter disappointment, and I write that as someone who voted for them. They are kow-towing to the vociferous powerful right wing lobby including the Daily Mail.

[Tills]

As a general point I would add that some of the hospitals in Thailand are superb. A place like Bumrungrad Hospital is world class and many wealthy Middle-Eastern people fly there for treatments. I've been there and had minor treatments and it is absolutely spotless and like a 5* hotel or above. Better by far than any NHS hospital in the UK.

xx

[Tills]

Funny thing. After my 9.5 hour facial surgery in Thailand I very unwisely flew back to the UK after just a week. I treated myself to Business Class on Etihad. When I settled into my seat I spoke to a senior crew member to say I was a bit worried about flying so soon after surgery. She smiled and said, 'our planes are full of patients returning to the UAE from Thailand after operations and we are very used to it. We will look after you and you will be fine.'

Nice touch!

xx

[Tills]

I think on the vaginoplasty v vulvoplasty point I've pretty much been on the fence for a long time. This ruling though tips me more down the full works line. I can't totally explain that except to say that I don't want to give any more reason for someone to challenge me in this vile country.

Are we so very far from the day when a trans female passenger arriving at an airport could be deep body searched by a male border force officer?

[SoupSarah]

As far as I can tell, and I'm not a legal guru or anything, but this legislation only defined what the term 'woman' means in the equalities act.. A confusing document at the time and now woefully outdated.
In that act, the only part that has any relevance to grc's is the separate spaces, mainly rape crisis centres. There has to be 'good reason' to exclude any one and that can be challenged in court. So your local gym is going to have difficulty in'proving'it's need for biological segregation.
This ruling in no way alters how grc's are issued or, for that matter, birth certificates, passports, etc. Those documents are still covered in full by other legislation. They are to identify you in the present and not a device to 'out' anyone. So there is no reasonable excuse to change a trans woman's gender marker and that definitely has not been changed in this current ruling.

[Tills]

Big demos yesterday against the ruling and there seems to be a lot of revulsion about it. All it serves to do is enflame hatred and division. I know that I will now go out of my way to exercise my human rights.

It has also been confirmed that the decision will be challenged in the European Court of Human Rights, to which the UK is still a member.

I just hope I can still secure my GRC and my SRS in the UK. Then unless things improve I will relocate to a different country.

[kat2]

Inside the UK Equalities commission there is one trans woman and one trans man, they are both not happy as are members of the labour government. One temporary work around might be to change the wording of womens toilets to Female toilets, since it is the word Woman that the ruling was applied. Due process was not followed and no risk impact assessment performed, that is to say cost implications to public bodies and the UK gov is not happy about an already overstretched BudgetA simple solution would be to let the activists keep the word woman and change esle were for female

[Princess Rachel Ann]

I gather hope from the thousands of people who attended the Hands Off! rallies that happened recently in every major city across the U.S. We are not alone in this fight. I take comfort in the myriad of court decisions that rule in our favor and block illegal actions by the government, as well as the states that are standing up and passing state laws to protect us.

This fight is not over by a long shot. The People are getting fed up with this Administration, and it is only a matter of time before this nonsense is put to an end.

Hang in there!

Facts, people are getting sick of the Trump administration's BS.

[Tills]

Scottish MSP Maggie Chapman has come under fire for attacking the Supreme Court ruling:

 https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,maggie-chapman-to-face-vote-on-continued-equalities-committee-membership

Amongst other things, she has pointed out that the Supreme Court judges didn't interview a single trans person. She accused them of, 'bigotry, prejudice, and hatred.'

Let's pull this apart where it really counts: it is not a legally sound judgement.

[Tills]

Two pieces of news today.

First MSP Maggie Chapman who condemned the Supreme Court for 'bigotry, prejudice, and hatred' survived (tory) attempts to remove her:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/25123031.maggie-chapman-survives-vote-key-holyrood-committee-role/

[Tills]

And transgender former Judge Victoria McCloud says she is challenging the ruling in the European Court of Human Rights.

 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9qw2149yelo.amp

Interesting to note that Ireland's progressive transgender laws came about because of a challenge to a ruling deemed discriminatory.