Which countries are "Safe" for (trans) women?

[Tills]

Well I was due to be in Ireland again this week but I've postponed it.

I don't feel it's the right time for me to be making big life-changing decisions about where to settle and live. I am still incredibly raw from my brother's sudden death six months ago and I haven't begun processing the trauma of that yet.

So I'm having a low-key week in bonnie Scotland, which I know well, instead. And then next month a holiday in Thailand, Singapore, and Australia. Possibly Bali too.

I've postponed major decisions on residency until next year.

xx

[Athena]

I found this hopefully it helps people with travel choices.


https://www.equaldex.com/issue/hate-crime-protections 🔗

[Lori Dee]

I've postponed major decisions on residency until next year.

Tills, I am sorry for your loss. I think that waiting for a while to make such a big decision may be a wise move. It is always a good idea to make decisions when you are certain that you are thinking clearly.

[Tills]

I found this hopefully it helps people with travel choices.


https://www.equaldex.com/issue/hate-crime-protections 🔗

Thanks so much Athena. I hadn't seen this one before and it's very helpful.

xx

[Tills]

Tills, I am sorry for your loss. I think that waiting for a while to make such a big decision may be a wise move. It is always a good idea to make decisions when you are certain that you are thinking clearly.

Thanks Lori Dee: this is so true! Great words.

xx

[Tills]

Well I did go to the north-west of Ireland, after all, and back to Dublin.

It was an interesting experience. I like the Irish people a lot and there's no doubt that it's trans friendly and supportive. In terms of scenery, Scotland it is not. And as a delightful Dublin taxi driver said to me, 'yeah but would you really want to live in County Mayo?'

That's the thing: you're getting a cheaper property but buying into isolation and a pretty run down area. If you opt for something with more pizzazz, you'll pay higher prices accordingly.

[Tills]

As for Thailand, the BBC have just broadcast a 3-part series called 'Thailand: The Dark Side of Paradise'.

It's a very good programme, bringing to the surface a lot of the hidden ambiguities about Thailand as well as a lot of the seedy and dark underbelly: much of which is induced by tourists. I'd recommend watching it. The only thing I will add is that it is from a western perspective: so it's how westerners interact with Thailand. There's a whole dimension to Thailand which is Thai ! You don't need to go to the Khao San Road. You don't have to go to yoga retreats run exclusively by westerners. And you certainly don't need to go to sex bars. 

To engage with Thai culture requires a lot more effort, to step away from the tourist bubbles. For example I have never really got why so many backpackers fill up their own coaches to head to the islands or famous cities. The same thing happens in Vietnam where tourists charter their own train carriages. Why not travel like the locals, or with the locals? Maybe the hardest part is to learn Thai culture and language.

Anyway, I'm defending the country but there's no doubt that the BBC series does expose a lot that is very dark. Here it is:

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m002jwhg/thailand-the-dark-side-of-paradise

(If you're outside the UK you will need to use a good VPN.)

xx

[Tills]

Both of which leave me in something of a dilemma.

I can't really see myself living in Ireland. I'd need a lot more money to go somewhere which would be suitable for me e.g. Dublin or perhaps Galway.

And I certainly can't see myself living back in Thailand. I did that and it was a dark period of my life, in which I encountered some of the ambiguities of the country. I do like it as a place but you have to be so careful and wary, and western tourism has fed some awful seediness. So much of their attitudes to transgender identity is wrapped up in sex tourism, and when it's not there's still the residual Buddhist idea that you (we) are paying the consequences for past life. I don't honestly think that Thailand offers a sufficiently safe haven for transgender women. Others might disagree.

xx

[Tills]

Funnily enough on my fortnight trip to Scotland and Ireland it was the former which has continued to draw me in.

Sure, Scotland is part of the UK and so it is subject to its laws. But the Scottish Parliament is governed by the Scottish National Party, who are left of centre. And Scottish people are generally very pro LGBTQ, which is why it was a vociferous small group who objected and took their fight to London. I never had a moment's issue in Scotland, or even a negative look. At the moment in the UK I just do my own thing, use ladies loos, and ignore the chaff.

And the Scottish Highlands are so beautiful. Oh my word.

xx

[Liz K]

It's ironic that I fled to the country you are trying to flee.  I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I don't dispute that living in the UK presents significant challenges if you're trans, and things will probably get worse. 

I still feel more safe here than in the US.  Even in my home state of California. 

Things in the US are very bad.  The politics are just part of it.  The toxicity of a relatively small militant minority scares the hell out of me.  They are itching for a fight.  My friends back home tell me that I made the right decision to leave.

I was well aware of the situation in the UK months before I arrived.  Having a network of close friends here is what tipped the scales for me.  If I didn't know anyone, I wouldn't be here.

That said, I know that I may need to leave if things become untenable.  Ireland would be appealing in many ways.  So would Belgium and Spain.  But I'd be starting over in those places not knowing a single person.  That's a huge drawback.

I'll see what happens.

[Tills]

It's ironic that I fled to the country you are trying to flee.  I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I don't dispute that living in the UK presents significant challenges if you're trans, and things will probably get worse. 

I still feel more safe here than in the US.  Even in my home state of California. 

Things in the US are very bad.  The politics are just part of it.  The toxicity of a relatively small militant minority scares the hell out of me.  They are itching for a fight.  My friends back home tell me that I made the right decision to leave.

I was well aware of the situation in the UK months before I arrived.  Having a network of close friends here is what tipped the scales for me.  If I didn't know anyone, I wouldn't be here.

That said, I know that I may need to leave if things become untenable.  Ireland would be appealing in many ways.  So would Belgium and Spain.  But I'd be starting over in those places not knowing a single person.  That's a huge drawback.

I'll see what happens.

Thanks so much for sharing this Liz and what a great post.

I agree with you about the UK actually, at least for now. I've come to realise since I started this thread that I can exist perfectly okay in the UK at the moment. Okay so maybe you get more hostile stares than before but by and large I get on and live my life as me, a woman. And generally I don't make eye contact with strangers, but then nor do most cis girls. I take no notice of the alleged ban in ladies loos and no one has confronted me.

The point about not knowing anyone is so important. That's probably my biggest problem with Ireland: I literally know no-one there and as a single woman at the age of 61 that would be a very tough prospect.

I definitely wouldn't travel to the US at the moment.

xx

[Tills]

Well I'm actively house hunting in Scotland.

It's possible to find turnkey ready properties at a cheaper price than Ireland and I adore Scotland. It's such a beautiful land. The people are also wonderful and generally very supportive of trans people (which is the nasty little small group got so agitated).

I felt on balance that I wanted to remain in the UK's safety net for state-funded care, at least for the time being.

xx

[ChrissyRyan]

It is sad that some places are VERY UNSAFE to be openly transgender or gay.  You could be in grave danger.

[Tills]

It is sad that some places are VERY UNSAFE to be openly transgender or gay.  You could be in grave danger.

I'm guessing you mean 'you' as in 'one' could be? And that's in certain countries.

It certainly isn't very unsafe in Scotland

xx

[ChrissyRyan]

I'm guessing you mean 'you' as in 'one' could be? And that's in certain countries.

It certainly isn't very unsafe in Scotland

xx

Yes, as in one. 

[Tills]

Yes, as in one. 

Thanks.

It's a tricky thing this.

There are certainly some countries which are institutionally prejudiced, where discrimination and persecution is legislated. This is often fuelled by religious fervour. These can be downright dangerous for a trans person and sometimes even worse for a gay person: you're better off being trans in some Middle Eastern places than openly homosexual.

On the other hand, there are a few countries where so-called phobias (phobia = "fear" which isn't strong enough) are outlawed and so trans-rights are positively protected. But even in these countries one can still encounter prejudice. Countries like Ireland and Spain fit this bracket.

Then there are a vast swathe of countries somewhere in the middle. The UK is probably sitting in this middle group. The trend isn't great right now but it's not that bad. Trans women really don't need to flee the UK at the moment.

Hate crime can be encountered anywhere because there are prejudiced people all over the globe even in the supposedly safe countries. My late brother, who was gay, encountered hate in surprising places like Australia and another time in Vietnam from some Canadians.

[KathyLauren]

encountered hate in surprising places like Australia and another time in Vietnam from some Canadians.

Canada is one of those places you described where trans rights are positively protected but where you can still encounter hate.  The haters are definitely in a minority, though.

A few years ago, a nutter from another town decided to create a ruckus and protest trans rights in our town.  (Not for any reason: trans rights were not high profile here.)  The local LGBTQ+ community got wind of it and organized a counter-protest. 

The anti-trans protest consisted of six people.  The LGBTQ+ counter-protest had more than 300 people, in spite of the pouring rain.  The two groups faced off from opposite sides of the street.  Police were on hand, mostly to keep the two sides apart.  Eventually, the anti folks faded away, while the counter-protesters had a party.  The event was considered the first annual Pride parade in this town, and has been commemorated each year since.

That's how things generally are here.  A few nasty, loud people, and a mostly quiet but supportive majority.