Genderfluid

[Mrs. Oliphant]

So certain that you are willing to risk all relationships?

Such a profound discussion of things that matter most to many of us. Thank-you Pema, Tanya, Annaliese, Lilis, Sephirah and all who contributed. Lori concisely stated the greatest fear I've confronted since beginning the out of darkness part of my journey: whose love would I lose? whose respect would turn to titters? would my cell phone ever ring again and not be a scam or a marketer? I've been doing this long enough to know many of the answers. Everyone who loved me before loves me now. But, I hear the tittering tone of their voice in virtually all texts and most of the vanishingly rare phone calls. Sometimes the silence is so loud I'm tempted to send a group text stating: It was all a joke! But I refuse to be a joke. I have no idea what lies before me, but knowing it's a road I no longer walk alone gives me the strength to take the next step. Thanks to you.

[Lori Dee]

Everyone who loved me before loves me now.

This is most important. We are at an age now where life is far too short to have negativity in it. The key is to truly accept yourself. Once you can love who you are, the rest is just noise. I would rather have silence than drama. I have encouraged everyone to ask questions and told them that I will try to help them understand. Very few are interested, so I let them go their way while I go mine. It is their decision, and I won't force them to be a part of my life that makes both of us uncomfortable.

Do I still love them? Unconditionally. But if they do not feel the same way, that is on them, not you.

[TanyaG]

But, I hear the tittering tone of their voice in virtually all texts and most of the vanishingly rare phone calls. Sometimes the silence is so loud I'm tempted to send a group text stating: It was all a joke! But I refuse to be a joke

The biggest problem people have adjusting to someone they know being trans is their own anxiety. If you hear any tittering or experience any silence, it is their anxiety making its presence felt, anxiety about how they should relate to you, how they should behave toward you, even how they should think about you. To help people readjust the best way forward is to continue to be you so they can develop a new familiarity with you.

And once that process is done, a new normality will replace the old one. A challenge of being trans is that once you are out, you have to go through a phase where everyone else adjusts to you, which can be tiring when you've just gone through the same process with yourself! But it only has to be done once with each person.

[TanyaG]

I truly have a hard time distinguishing between all the differences in these definitions.  I try to grasp some of these but that's where I seem to get muddled. I know I am not in agreement with somethings that I have been brought up believing that I should be. It is a internalized balancing act of sorts going on. I am finding myself comprimising with myself, no its like a balancing act.

The issue with definitions is the way they collapse diverse groups under one banner, which results in stereotyping. If a definition is too tight, then it will cause multiple problems, one of which is people who wish to belong to the group trying to fit themselves into the definition and finding they don't fit the stereotype.

The word transgender implies that someone wishes to change gender, for example, while the word transsexual implied that someone wished to change sex.

Although I use the word 'trans' about myself because people understand it, by preference I would describe myself as 'gender incongruent' of GI because that's the reality of it for me. GI as a term embraces everyone on Susan's, be we post GAMC, pre GAMC or not contemplating GAMC in any way, and whether we are binary or non-binary. Every other label brings pressure to try and fit within the label and with that comes the confusion.

[Annaliese]

The issue with definitions is the way they collapse diverse groups under one banner, which results in stereotyping. If a definition is too tight, then it will cause multiple problems, one of which is people who wish to belong to the group trying to fit themselves into the definition and finding they don't fit the stereotype.

The word transgender implies that someone wishes to change gender, for example, while the word transsexual implied that someone wished to change sex.

Although I use the word 'trans' about myself because people understand it, by preference I would describe myself as 'gender incongruent' of GI because that's the reality of it for me. GI as a term embraces everyone on Susan's, be we post GAMC, pre GAMC or not contemplating GAMC in any way, and whether we are binary or non-binary. Every other label brings pressure to try and fit within the label and with that comes the confusion.

Thank you, i think this clears somethings up. I am continuing to find my footing in this new life. I continue to learn more about myself each day. It's a roller coaster at times for sure.

[Lilis]

I continue to learn more about myself each day.

It's a roller coaster at times for sure.

This! 🫂💕

~ Lilis

[Sephirah]

These kind of hit the heart of what I'm trying to understand:

Gender isn't an on off switch, but instead a balance. So if someone has more masculine traits than feminine ones, they'll be read as male and vice versa.

A woman with a preponderance of masculine traits who isn't seeking GAMC doesn't fit and if she's attracted to women will be regarded as a butch lesbian. A man with more feminine traits than masculine ones who doesn't seek GAMC doesn't fit either.

I never really equated masculine and feminine as being associated with gender. But then I didn't really come up with what I thought it was instead. It was just a.. thing. Probably because I've never really thought about people "not fitting", and I tend to read people from the vibe they give off. Which is likely contributed to by traits and things that I'm subconsciously seeing without actually seeing. So yeah I can see how it makes sense.

The model I use is that gender incongruence is a characteristic and a desire to change physical sex is a symptom some people with that characteristic share.  Everyone here can be fitted into that model, which opens the door to effeminate men and masculine women, because they share gender incongruence with us. Yet these two groups don't regard themselves as being trans, because the word has such heavy connotations of 'wish to be another physical sex,' for which they have no desire. Using my model of gender incongruence, everyone's welcome and everyone's explained.

Does this make sense and/or answer your question? If not, tell me where it falls down for you and I'll refine it some more!

That makes more sense in my head, yes. Thank you. I don't really have an alternative to what contributes to gender so I'll go with your model because it means less headaches.

[TanyaG]

I don't really have an alternative to what contributes to gender so I'll go with your model because it means less headaches.

Yet another way of looking at this

Gender is a word for all the psychological, social and behavioural aspects that a culture associates with being male or female.

Western culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

If western culture was different, then all people, regardless of sex assigned at birth, might now be being brought up with what we regard as masculine traits, or conversely everyone might be being taught feminine traits, or there might even be no preference one way or another with children allowed to develop their own collection of traits.

Even the traits themselves are up for grabs, because they too are culturally defined, that's the shocker. There's no reason why another society couldn't decide to add traits, swap them around between genders, or add in extra genders. The latter already happens with third gender people in India and Pakistan, and two spirit native Americans; while the former can be seen in some Polynesian societies, and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment because I'm hoping Lilis's date is going okay.

Which isn't to say society's conventions are right. Is this any closer to answering your question about what contributes to gender? Effectively, what I'm trying to say is that gender (again as defined above) is something society arrived at by accident over a few thousand years.

[Sephirah]

Yet another way of looking at this

Gender is a word for all the psychological, social and behavioural aspects that a culture associates with being male or female.

Western culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

If western culture was different, then all people, regardless of sex assigned at birth, might now be being brought up with what we regard as masculine traits, or conversely everyone might be being taught feminine traits, or there might even be no preference one way or another with children allowed to develop their own collection of traits.

Even the traits themselves are up for grabs, because they too are culturally defined, that's the shocker. There's no reason why another society couldn't decide to add traits, swap them around between genders, or add in extra genders. The latter already happens with third gender people in India and Pakistan, and two spirit native Americans; while the former can be seen in some Polynesian societies, and probably others, I just can't think of any at the moment because I'm hoping Lilis's date is going okay.

Which isn't to say society's conventions are right. Is this any closer to answering your question about what contributes to gender? Effectively, what I'm trying to say is that gender (again as defined above) is something society arrived at by accident over a few thousand years.

Okay that makes sense, Tanya, thank you. I think I've just been looking at it the wrong way. And I kind of don't see gender at all. Which is probably why I could never describe it, lol. I'm still not sure I feel that way about myself or others. I tend to go with what other people feel about themselves with regard to gender, rather than what I feel. Because I only see the psychological, social and behavioural aspects, as you put it. I don't think I ever made that leap to forming it into a gender identity, or associating it with being male or female. But then I never really fit into society much, either. And the dysphoria I've had my whole life has only ever been physical. Self image, I guess. I don't really know why.

So it's massively helpful to see how other people view it, and that framework for trying to understand others. And thank you for your patience during what must have felt like trying to explain rocket science to a toddler, lol. <3 I think by that way of thinking either I don't have a gender, or I have... all of them? At least in my own head. In terms of physical self image, though, it's definitely binary. Mentally, more of a... blob, lol.

[Annaliese]

Okay that makes sense, Tanya, thank you. I think I've just been looking at it the wrong way. And I kind of don't see gender at all. Which is probably why I could never describe it, lol. I'm still not sure I feel that way about myself or others. I tend to go with what other people feel about themselves with regard to gender, rather than what I feel. Because I only see the psychological, social and behavioural aspects, as you put it. I don't think I ever made that leap to forming it into a gender identity, or associating it with being male or female. But then I never really fit into society much, either. And the dysphoria I've had my whole life has only ever been physical. Self image, I guess. I don't really know why.

So it's massively helpful to see how other people view it, and that framework for trying to understand others. And thank you for your patience during what must have felt like trying to explain rocket science to a toddler, lol. <3 I think by that way of thinking either I don't have a gender, or I have... all of them? At least in my own head. In terms of physical self image, though, it's definitely binary. Mentally, more of a... blob, lol.

This definitely can be taxing on the mind when you look at it from every angle. I always seem to think, yes i got it, then wham, another angle appears and I am rethinking it again. It seems like a ever moving line.

[Lori Dee]

Western culture is strongly binary and groups gender - as defined above - into either masculine or feminine, meaning trait 'choices' are either/or situation depending on sex assigned at birth. There's no evidence which suggests this is anything but a convention society has settled on, but it's stable purely because most children don't get to make trait choices, they are imposed on them by their parents, wider family and social group.

I was just reading a Brittanica article, entitled: Has Pink Always Been a "Girly" Color?
https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color#:~:text=At%20the%20beginning%20of%20the,and%20blue%20for%20the%20girls.

Back before pastels were popular for babies, most parents dressed their kids in white dresses until they were about six. ... this outfit was practical: white cotton could be easily bleached, and dresses allowed convenient access for diaper changing. Then pastel colors became a fad for babies. These pastels weren't marketed to a certain sex: both boys and girls were dressed in a wide array of pastels, including blue and pink.

At the beginning of the 20th century, some stores began suggesting "sex-appropriate" colors. In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department claimed the "generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl."

The baby boomers in the 1940s were the first to be dressed in the sex-specific clothing that Americans are familiar with today. Boys and girls were dressed like miniature men and women instead of uniformly in children's dresses. Pink became the girls' color, blue the boys'.

Social constructs can be fickle, and as you stated, can vary across cultures.

[Annaliese]

I was just reading a Brittanica article, entitled: Has Pink Always Been a "Girly" Color?
https://www.britannica.com/story/has-pink-always-been-a-girly-color#:~:text=At%20the%20beginning%20of%20the,and%20blue%20for%20the%20girls.

Back before pastels were popular for babies, most parents dressed their kids in white dresses until they were about six. ... this outfit was practical: white cotton could be easily bleached, and dresses allowed convenient access for diaper changing. Then pastel colors became a fad for babies. These pastels weren't marketed to a certain sex: both boys and girls were dressed in a wide array of pastels, including blue and pink.

At the beginning of the 20th century, some stores began suggesting "sex-appropriate" colors. In 1918 the trade publication Earnshaw's Infants' Department claimed the "generally accepted rule is pink for the boys, and blue for the girls. The reason is that pink, being a more decided and stronger color, is more suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty, is prettier for the girl."

The baby boomers in the 1940s were the first to be dressed in the sex-specific clothing that Americans are familiar with today. Boys and girls were dressed like miniature men and women instead of uniformly in children's dresses. Pink became the girls' color, blue the boys'.

Social constructs can be fickle, and as you stated, can vary across cultures.

so it was us baby boomers who flipped the script. How about that 🤔

[Lori Dee]

so it was us baby boomers who flipped the script.

I was born in 1957, so I can blame my parents. Another reason to blame my parents. 

[Annaliese]

I was born in 1957, so I can blame my parents. Another reason to blame my parents. 

yes same here, but still a baby boomer problem.