Why i chose to be openly the 3rd gender

[warlockmaker]

I knew i was different in my gender
and its urges, i didn't know what i was because I grew up in a conservative  society where being gay was against the law. I wasn't gay, tried that, and cross dressing secretly was not enough.

When I learned about Transgender my intellectual curiosity soon discovered a new world. I spent years talking with a therapist to confirm i was transgender. Once I decided to change and start HRT I realized that I did this to be true to myself. I no longer wanted to hide my wearing female panties, tucking my penis  etc.i came out openly. Because of my standing in society and my achievements in sports, business, playboy 4 marriages, 4 children I made headlines in the major newspaper.

I did this because for the first time in my life I no longer needed to hide and to lie as to who I was. I also accepted that my many close friends would not accept this change and I accepted why they would feel this way. I had changed and all of us who have been on HRT know our perception of life has changed. It was not fair to expect them to support me  in wasn't the exact same person anymore.

Today some 10 years later, I have chosen to live in Thailand and I never needed to lie to others and thus lie to myself, that I am a proud transgender female.

I am exceptionally fit and exercise pilates every day and meet new people, mostly females, who are  not thai. Being open to them after I have know them is a   normal. I have openly come out to Russians, Europeans and Asians. Hiding or being stealth would mean I'm not proud of who I am and lying to other is lying to myself. I could not return to living a lie.

I am completely at peace and accepted as who I am. I wish you all have this success.

[Lilis]

I am completely at peace and accepted as who I am. I wish you all have this success.

Hi Warlockmaker,

Congrats! 🎉 And thank you so, much! 🫂

But, I think there's more than one way this can be true.

It really depends on the lens we're viewing from, and it's clear there are at least two distinct lenses here.

For some, the belief is 'Lying to others is lying to myself.'

For others, it's it's clearly 'I've always been a woman, so, I'm not lying, and I'm not hiding.'

And both can be completely at peace and fully accepting of who they are.

This is hairy territory, it's not always straightforward.


~ Lilis 💞

[TanyaG]

Hiding or being stealth would mean I'm not proud of who I am and lying to other is lying to myself. I could not return to living a lie.

It's always interesting to hear people's stories, because we're such a varied group of people no two of us seem alike. I vividly recall working with someone who wanted to be so open  about her trans-ness I began wondering where the sensible limits of 'who should I tell?' lay, but I get it.

What I'd add is the limits of how open someone needs to be depends very much on their lifestyle, so for many members, being trans is a part of their life, but not all of their life.

That in turn defines what 'being in stealth' means for them. So... on the one hand, if being trans is the defining feature of someone's character, they may need to be out to everyone, while on the other, if their life doesn't revolve around being trans, then I wouldn't construe them as lying should they wish to live in the gender of their choice, even if people around them don't know they are trans.

Maybe that isn't what you're saying?

Whatever, it's great you're at peace with yourself and happy with your situation. There are as many different solutions to the lived experience of being trans as there are trans people, and I guess there are plenty of solutions that nobody's thought of yet, so power to you

[warlockmaker]

I respect each person choice in their lifestyle, this is purely the story of my journey and my choice. It is not my intention to be biased or offend, and if I have please accept my apology.

I fortunately live in Thailand, being TG is normal. Infact it is estimated that 25% of the population is LGTB. I understand it's not so in other countries.

I understand your points of view.

[TanyaG]

I respect each person choice in their lifestyle, this is purely the story of my journey and my choice. It is not my intention to be biased or offend, and if I have please accept my apology.

No, it's fantastic you've found what works for you, no apology needed in any way. We're so diverse as a group it's always fascinating hearing how others have found their own, personal balance and why it works for them.

[Sarah B]

Hi Everyone

Introduction
I live in the binary world.  I have always been female although I only realised this when I arrived at Susan's in 2010 at the age of 51 after nearly twenty years of living openly as a female with no one outside of my family and a couple of doctors knowing about my past.  I never had to express my gender as it was given and this still applies to this day.  My family love me unconditionally and my personality has never changed.

As Lilis mentioned, "For some, the belief is 'Lying to others is lying to myself.'"  Well I am not lying to myself because I have always been female.  Yes there are minor details such as my birth sex or the fact that I went to boarding school yet these facts do not make me stealth or passing as I am simply living as me.  As Lilis also said, "I've always been a female so I'm not lying and I'm not hiding."

I respect others who wish to be identified as other 'genders'; however, with all these other genders it is no wonder people are confused.  Many people do feel puzzled when they first hear terms like non-binary, agender or genderfluid because everyday conversation has usually treated gender as only male or female.  That confusion is a normal reaction to unfamiliar language rather than proof that the labels are frivolous.  No wonder why people are confused about gender.

The following list is not complete and there is no concrete definition of gender.  Words keep multiplying because the two-word male female vocabulary cannot capture every person's inner sense of self.  Biological variations such as intersex conditions remind us that even physical traits are not always strictly male or female which deepens the conversation further.  Language expands whenever new ideas emerge just as the internet added selfie, email's, streaming and phishing to everyday speech.

List of different genders
Binary genders

• Male
• Female

Non-binary genders

• Non-binary
• Genderqueer
• Genderfluid
• Agender
• Bigender
• Demigirl
• Demiboy

Culturally specific genders

• Hijra
• Two Spirit
• Fa'afafine
• Waria
• Bakla
• Kathoey

Other self-identified genders

• Maverique
• Novigender
• Aliagender
• Xenogender

Legal or administrative markers

• Male
• Female
• X or Unspecified / Non-binary

Conclusion
The above list shows how language stretches to cover real human experience yet I still live comfortably in the binary world.  In biology and medicine gender is often aligned with sex categories; in social science it appears as a set of roles and expectations shaped by culture; in psychology and identity studies it is the inner sense of self; in law and public policy it is a definition written so rights can be enforced; in everyday speech it becomes a blend of all these meanings.

Each area adds its own shade of meaning so no single definition dominates.  Showing respect or courtesy means using the words someone gives for themselves. For instance if a colleague named Sam tells me they use he or she pronouns I will address Sam in that way in every conversation.  Therefore one does not need to memorise every gender term.  I respect others who choose different labels even though the growing vocabulary can bewilder the wider society.

With patience and goodwill we can acknowledge each person's identity while remembering our common humanity.  As already mentioned the above list is not complete and there is no concrete definition of gender so the conversation about gender will keep evolving.

So what is the 3rd gender?

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Lilis @warlockmaker

[ChrissyRyan]

Hi Everyone

Introduction
I live in the binary world.  I have always been female although I only realised this when I arrived at Susan's in 2010 at the age of 51 after nearly twenty years of living openly as a female with no one outside of my family and a couple of doctors knowing about my past.  I never had to express my gender as it was given and this still applies to this day.  My family love me unconditionally and my personality has never changed.

As Lilis mentioned, "For some, the belief is 'Lying to others is lying to myself.'"  Well I am not lying to myself because I have always been female.  Yes there are minor details such as my birth sex or the fact that I went to boarding school yet these facts do not make me stealth or passing as I am simply living as me.  As Lilis also said, "I've always been a female so I'm not lying and I'm not hiding."

I respect others who wish to be identified as other 'genders'; however, with all these other genders it is no wonder people are confused.  Many people do feel puzzled when they first hear terms like non-binary, agender or genderfluid because everyday conversation has usually treated gender as only male or female.  That confusion is a normal reaction to unfamiliar language rather than proof that the labels are frivolous.  No wonder why people are confused about gender.

The following list is not complete and there is no concrete definition of gender.  Words keep multiplying because the two-word male female vocabulary cannot capture every person's inner sense of self.  Biological variations such as intersex conditions remind us that even physical traits are not always strictly male or female which deepens the conversation further.  Language expands whenever new ideas emerge just as the internet added selfie, email's, streaming and phishing to everyday speech.

List of different genders
Binary genders

• Male
• Female

Non-binary genders

• Non-binary
• Genderqueer
• Genderfluid
• Agender
• Bigender
• Demigirl
• Demiboy

Culturally specific genders

• Hijra
• Two Spirit
• Fa'afafine
• Waria
• Bakla
• Kathoey

Other self-identified genders

• Maverique
• Novigender
• Aliagender
• Xenogender

Legal or administrative markers

• Male
• Female
• X or Unspecified / Non-binary

Conclusion
The above list shows how language stretches to cover real human experience yet I still live comfortably in the binary world.  In biology and medicine gender is often aligned with sex categories; in social science it appears as a set of roles and expectations shaped by culture; in psychology and identity studies it is the inner sense of self; in law and public policy it is a definition written so rights can be enforced; in everyday speech it becomes a blend of all these meanings.

Each area adds its own shade of meaning so no single definition dominates.  Showing respect or courtesy means using the words someone gives for themselves. For instance if a colleague named Sam tells me they use he or she pronouns I will address Sam in that way in every conversation.  Therefore one does not need to memorise every gender term.  I respect others who choose different labels even though the growing vocabulary can bewilder the wider society.

With patience and goodwill we can acknowledge each person's identity while remembering our common humanity.  As already mentioned the above list is not complete and there is no concrete definition of gender so the conversation about gender will keep evolving.

So what is the 3rd gender?

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Lilis @warlockmaker

It is unclear to me what the third gender is.  Likely a label that differentiates a transgender person from his or her CIS gender counterpart?  For example, the counterpart to a MTF would be a CIS female.


Chrissy

[Sarah B]

Hi Everyone

A single "third gender" does not exist.  The phrase refers to any social or legal category that sits outside the male or female categories.  Each culture fills that space differently: hijra in South Asia, fa'afafine in Samoa and Two Spirit roles in some Indigenous nations, so no one group can stand as the universal third option.

In everyday Western life a person recorded male at birth who now lives as female or vice versa a person recorded female at birth who now lives as male is treated simply as a woman or a man.  Neither is automatically placed in a third gender class unless a specific culture or legal system has created a separate status.

Comparing the term "transgender" with "gender" often adds confusion because "transgender" itself has no single universally accepted definition.  Different medical, legal and social frameworks describe it in different ways so lining it up against an already flexible idea like gender can multiply the ambiguities.

To answer your question: the third gender varies by culture and cannot be tied to one label such as transgender.  If someone asks what it is you first need to know which society's rules they are using.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@ChrissyRyan @Lori Dee

[Lori Dee]

I was thinking along the lines of "Trigender".

"Trigender is a non-binary gender identity which can be literally translated as 'three genders' or 'triple gender'. Trigender people experience exactly three gender identities, either simultaneously or varying between them. These three gender identities can be male, female, and/or any non-binary identities."

[Sarah B]

Hi Lori

You mentioned:

I was thinking along the lines of "Trigender".

"Trigender is a non-binary gender identity which can be literally translated as 'three genders' or 'triple gender'.  Trigender people experience exactly three gender identities, either simultaneously or varying between them.  These three gender identities can be male, female, and/or any non-binary identities."

I agree with you that Trigender is a personal label for feeling three genders, either at once or shifting among them.  It is used mainly in LGBTQ spaces such as online glossaries and it rarely appears in laws or mainstream dictionaries.

Third-gender categories come from specific cultures or legal systems, for example hijra in South Asia, fa'afafine in Samoa or Two Spirit roles in some Indigenous nations.  These groups have formal social roles and they do not use the word trigender.

Because cultures define third-gender roles differently trigender cannot serve as one universal third-gender label.  A trigender person may still hold a passport marked male or female while a legally recognised hijra may never use the word trigender.

Trigender answers how one individual describes themselves whereas the idea of a third gender always depends on the rules and history of a particular society.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Lori Dee

[Tills]

In the current climate in the west I am moving away from promoting the idea of third gender identities for others. It's throwing a bone to the TERF's as a get-out: push us all out into that sub-category so that they never have to engage with us as proper women.

Thailand is an amazing country with, as @warlockmaker says, many openly LGBTQ people but it's nuanced and not straightforward. Even in Thailand there are complex issues around legal recognition of transgender people and they're often treated as second-class citizens. Some of this relates to Buddhist notions, which still persist, that trans people and gay people are being punished for previous life / lives. And a lot of transgender youngsters are, or have been historically, groomed for the 'ladyboy' sex industry, which most of us women on here would say has nothing whatsoever to do with our identity and who we are. And, wow, does that persist in western sex tourism. A previous friend of mine, now cut out of my life, replied when I came out as a woman: 'I've had great sex with ladyboys in Bangkok' ... as if this had anything to do with what I was telling him. To be fair there are many transgender people in Thailand who also have nothing to do with the kathoey sub-culture, which is really a type of male, contrasting with sao praphet song (more of a trans woman), or phet thi sam (third sex).

In terms of 'lying', that's a rather strong word. I have a very good friend who transitioned several decades ago: she was something of a pioneer. She chose to reboot her life in stealth mode after surgery. She moved house and started again. Only a handful of people know that she was born into the wrong body and none of those are in her friendship group. They have no idea she is or was anything other than a woman. Which is what she is. 

And me too. Like @Sarah B I'm a woman. Not a third gender.

xx

p.s. Ironically Bobbie @warlockmaker you are one of the most beautiful women I've met. If you're happy as a third gender then I'm really happy for you. But if it were based on looks alone, you wouldn't need to rest there. No one in the west would think you were anything other than a woman.

[Tills]

Intriguingly, this thread is having the effect of making me less likely to settle in Thailand. Final surgery, yes. But to live there? Probably not.

I don't want to be recognised or considered as a third gender. It's not who I am.

This is the danger, I feel, in promoting third genderism. It becomes an easy get out for trans exclusionists. A way of pushing us out of the nest.

My earliest memory is pulling on my sister's underwear aged 3 and knowing this was right. In my teens I sent off for estrogen, which was intercepted by my father who went mad. I've always had the knowledge of female identity. I know this is different for some others and I support you in your own right paths, but for me identifying as a third gender would be a cop out.

xx

[Lori Dee]

Maybe I am confused, but I thought intersex or NB would cover the "label" of third gender. So I must have missed the intent of this thread.

I am aware, as @Sarah B pointed out, that in some cultures, third genders are recognized but only within their culture. Here in South Dakota, the Native Lakota use "Two-Spirit" to refer to masculine women or feminine men. These people are revered as teachers, healers, and prophets. But only a Native can claim to be "Two-Spirit," and that is because it has a specific meaning within their culture.

So that got me to thinking, are we talking about one of the many NB designations or something else? 

[Tills]

Then there's Tiresias in Greek mythology who was transformed into a woman for 7 years, returning to the male body with unique insight into both polarities.

As Peter Gabriel sang:

Take a little trip back with father Tiresias
Listen to the old one speak of all he has lived through
I have crossed between the poles, for me there's no mystery
Once a man, like the sea I raged
Once a woman, like the earth I gave
But there is in fact more earth than sea

[Genesis: 'The Cinema Show' from their 1973 album Selling England by the Pound.]

When Phil Collins took over as lead singer he changed Gabriel's words. Instead of, 'listen to the old one speak' he sang, 'listen to the old man speak' which missed something of Peter Gabriel's nuance.

In some of the versions Tiresias was a woman who went the other way. Anyway, even if it was temporary, and even if it began with a punishment, I like the idea that there's a near-3000 year old story of a man who became a woman. In some ways Tiresias is the first example in literature of Non-Binary identity. And if you take myth as aetiology then it illustrates that gender complexity has been around since the dawn of human cultures.

xx

[Sarah B]

Hi Tills

You said:

In terms of 'lying', that's a rather strong word. I have a very good friend who transitioned several decades ago: she was something of a pioneer. She chose to reboot her life in stealth mode after surgery. She moved house and started again. Only a handful of people know that she was born into the wrong body and none of those are in her friendship group. They have no idea she is or was anything other than a woman. Which is what she is.

Oh boy!  That describes me to a T!  I moved across country that's Australia and ended up living in Sydney and eventually I changed careers.  None of my previous friends before I changed my life around know about me.

Except one and that was because she was known in my family and kept asking what happened to me.  A family member was referring to me with my new legal name.  While my friend from high school days was referring to me by my previous legal name.  So yeah my cover was blown.  We corresponded via letters and I supposed she would be one who I did tell.  We eventually caught up together and spent several days while I was in Sydney.

I don't want to be recognised or considered as a third gender. It's not who I am.

Neither do I and that includes the word 'transgender'.

This is the danger, I feel, in promoting third genderism. It becomes an easy get out for trans exclusionists. A way of pushing us out of the nest.

To me 'outing myself' was always a danger to me and I valued my safety above anything else

My earliest memory is pulling on my sister's underwear aged 3 and knowing this was right. In my teens I sent off for estrogen, which was intercepted by my father who went mad. I've always had the knowledge of female identity. I know this is different for some others and I support you in your own right paths, but for me identifying as a third gender would be a cop out.

My earliest memory was around the ages of 4 or 5 and I was looking at a bunch of clothing in a pile and I knew what I wanted and that was to find girl clothes and to wear them.  However, I did not find anything, alas.

So even me, given that I did not find out that I was always female until I was 51.  That one incident tells me I was always a female, no ifs and no butts and yes identifying as anything other than a female would be a definite cop out for me.

So that is why I will never be known as anything other than a female.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Tills

[TanyaG]

In some of the versions Tiresias was a woman who went the other way. Anyway, even if it was temporary, and even if it began with a punishment, I like the idea that there's a near-3000 year old story of a man who became a woman. In some ways Tiresias is the first example in literature of Non-Binary identity.

Indian literature also has an ancient transgender tradition, some of which I summarised here if anyone wants a refresher. Trans people and even trans gods aren't hard to find in antiquity and the Kama Sutra is maybe one of the best known examples, given its survival into modern times, but as Tills rightly points out, there are examples everywhere.

My personal view is too many labels lead to confusion. It doesn't take much reading of this thread to realise that even members who are deeply embedded in trans culture are struggling with what some of these labels mean! I totally get it, because confusion is inevitable when definitions of labels aren't explicit, aren't universally accepted (even within the trans community,) and especially when terms overlap, or conflct with other cultures interpretations, which is sort of what's happening here.

I'm happy to count anyone whose gender identity conflicts with their sex assigned at birth as trans and offer fellowship to them. I'm also good with people using whatever labels help them understand themselves, but right now I'd suggest we're at a stage where there's still a need for people using some of those labels to explain what they mean to them because otherwise, threads like this are going to be pretty common and misunderstandings too.

For what it's worth, I believe third gender is a legal category in Pakistan, but none of the laws protecting it are enforced with any enthusiasm. India is in the same situation. Because Hindu culture swept the region centuries ago third gender concepts in Indian mythology and literature became a core part of the culture of surrounding countries like Thailand, modified by the lens of the pre-existing cultures. Hence all the different flavours of trans to be seen in the region, but there's a catch, which Tills has identified.

For centuries, third gender in India was associated with Hijras and Zenanas (mostly from what was then Northern India,) quite different groups who were tolerated without much enthusiasm and regarded as low caste into the bargain. Only recently, as in perhaps the last tweny years, has a trans culture began to emerge in India independently of that. As usual, it's complicated, but the history of trans culture within the region is dogged by its past leaving unresolved conflicts and prejudices aplenty.

[Tills]

Thanks so much @TanyaG for such a great informative post. Spot on.

xx

[Tills]

With you 100% @Sarah B. Everything you have written above ^^^ .

I acknowledge the path of those who wish to be known as third genders or even transgendered as per Bobbie at the start of this thread.

But that's not my truth. I'm a woman. Not transgendered. Not anything other than an independent woman, to quote Beyoncé.