Washroom incident

[Sarah B]

Hi Everyone

I completely understand the discomfort some people have raised here and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that hearing a man peeing while standing in the next stall of a women's restroom is unsettling.  That kind of sound immediately pulls you out of any sense of safety or belonging in that space.  I would definitely feel uncomfortable and I am sure many other women would feel the same.

To me this isn't about identity or gender.  It's about etiquette, decency, courtesy and culture.  If you are in the women's restroom then act like it.  That means sitting down.  That's not just a cultural expectation.  It's a basic courtesy.  Sitting is standard in women's spaces regardless of what someone identifies as.  It's not difficult to understand why that matters to the people already in the room.

More broadly I think this issue points to a failure in the design and maintenance of public toilets in the United States.  The state of any restroom varies widely by location.  Some facilities are spotless others are neglected and unhygienic.  Governments, councils and business's  need to step in and  upgrade their facilities that reflect the realities of modern life.

One option might be to make all restrooms unisex but ensure they offer complete privacy with floor-to-ceiling walls and full doors.  That would remove the ambiguity and reduce the pressure on everyone.

But alongside that people need to be taught how to use toilets respectfully.  Basic hygiene and consideration for the next person using the facility should be expected of everyone.

I don't carry wipes myself but if people are worried about the state of the toilets then they should carry some.  It's a simple way to take responsibility for your own comfort.

These issues are not just about gender or identity.  They are about shared space, etiquette, respect, courtesy and the basics of being clean and mindful toward others.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator

[Lilis]

We have to be careful here.

I understand that discomfort is real, but discomfort isn't the same as danger.

Framing someone as 'a man' because of how they pee is not only misgendering, it's a form of social control rooted in cisnormativity.

Trans women and gender-diverse folks don't owe their bodily choices to public scrutiny, especially not in private stalls.

If the solution is better restroom design, let's advocate for that, not for trans and gender-diverse people to make themselves invisible.


~ Lilis 🫂

[Mrs. Oliphant]

To me this isn't about identity or gender.  It's about etiquette,

Framing someone as 'a man' because of how they pee is not only misgendering, it's a form of social control rooted in cisnormativity.

Like Kathy and Sarah I sympathize with Eileen's discomfort and, for her sake, regret the incident occurred and did my best to express that level of empathy in my initial response. 'Control' seems to be a far more compelling concern than 'etiquette,' and there is no way I can enhance or buttress Lilis' succinct warning for us to proceed cautiously in unraveling all the knots though Tanya's insight was most enlightening. After reading the initial post, I felt as though I was being chastised for an incident that had nothing to do with me or, frankly, any of the wonderful people I've met in the halls of Susan's. Nor did I sense that Eileen expected to confront the perceived 'offender' in these same halls. I am not questioning motivation or doubting sincerity, merely remarking upon my own sadness I feel in regard to this topic. Proper etiquette is important in any private or sensitive environment such as a public restroom. No one is discounting that. But there is also an etiquette in this space and casting stones seems outside those boundaries.   

[TanyaG]

Yeah, sometimes we never really know who's next to us in those moments, and maybe we don't need to.

I agree completely. If we are such slaves to our scripting we end up defining gender by how we pee, we've lost the plot!

[TanyaG]

These issues are not just about gender or identity.  They are about shared space, etiquette, respect, courtesy and the basics of being clean and mindful toward others.

I'd add that those things work both ways, Sarah. I'm a huge proponent of tolerance and non zero-sum thinking; basically if someone is doing something that may not be my personal preference, but which isn't harming anything except my perceptions, then I've taught myself to be fine with it. Let them lives their lives as they wish.

To give an example, my mother was very keen on a certain style of eating. To this day, if someone I'm at table with does not put their cutlery down between mouthfuls, I have to stop myself cringeing. It's a stupid trope, but I must have had so much reinforcement of it as a child, I still have to suppress an urge to shout, 'Don't do that!' :-)

Another. I grew up amidst a bunch of what in retrospect must have been some of the most assertive women on the planet, of which my first girlfriend, Ginny, was a fantastic example. Other girls rode horses, she rode a motorbike and she taught me gender is like clothing. You can wear it like a corset, or you can wear it like a kaftan, or anywhere inbetween but nowhere do the rules say where each person of any gender should set the dial.

A lot of the angst here is experienced by people who have allowed others (or society at large) to set their dial for them and who are having trouble even being able to see where their own sweet point should be, no?

[Lilis]

I'd add that those things work both ways, Sarah. I'm a huge proponent of tolerance and non zero-sum thinking; basically if someone is doing something that may not be my personal preference, but which isn't harming anything except my perceptions, then I've taught myself to be fine with it. Let them lives their lives as they wish.

Exactly this, Tanya!

It's a woman with bad bathroom etiquette, not "a man" with bad bathroom etiquette.

I love the way you always find the right words to gently unravel complex perceptions. 💓🌷


~ Lilis 🫂

[Lilis]

Like Kathy and Sarah I sympathize with Eileen's discomfort and, for her sake, regret the incident occurred and did my best to express that level of empathy in my initial response.

After reading the initial post, I felt as though I was being chastised for an incident that had nothing to do with me or, frankly, any of the wonderful people I've met in the halls of Susan's.

Annika, as I continue on this journey, I've learned not to extend solidarity to cis discomfort at the expense of protecting the person actually being targeted, in this case, a trans or gender-nonconforming person simply using the restroom.

This kind of compromise is dangerous.

It centers cis discomfort over trans and gnc existence.

It implicitly condones misgendering.

It shifts the burden of others' biases onto us.

And it reinforces transphobic narratives about who does or doesn't "belong" in women's spaces.

Let's be clear, no one in this thread did or said anything wrong.

You have nothing to apologize for.

Be unapologetic. Smile. 🙂


~ Lilis 🫂💞

[Devlyn]

As noted, no one has done or said anything wrong in this thread. It's a good conversation.

I do want to point out that the post is in the Significant Others subforum, which is a unique space on the site:

This forum is primarily intended as a place Significant others can go to in order to seek support from each other. While I do not block the posting by the transgendered I would ask that as much as possible you respect this as a seperate area for them. If they have a question and you can answer it in a neutral manner feel free to respond. This is a place for facts and good information and not for advocacy.

Let's just be conscious of where we're posting and who we're replying to. 

Hugs, Devlyn

[Lilis]

I do want to point out that the post is in the Significant Others subforum, which is a unique space on the site:

Let's just be conscious of where we're posting and who we're replying to. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Thank you, Devlyn, for the thoughtful reminder, message received.

I do find it personally difficult to engage in a neutral way when a post, even unintentionally, touches on something that may feel invalidating or misgendering.

For me, neutrality in those moments can feel like quiet agreement, which is challenging.

That said, I recognize the nature of this subforum and the importance of its intended space.

With that in mind, I'll be stepping away from this particular conversation and have muted the thread from my end for my own peace of mind.

Appreciate your guidance. 🌷

~ Lilis 🫂

[Pema]

Thank you, Devlyn. That has been on my mind as I've watched this discussion.

I also decided I'd like to add my opinions and experiences and emphasize that that's all they are - my own unique perspective - as is the case for anyone else.

For decades, long before I ever considered I might be transgender, I've used women's restrooms. I've found them to be cleaner, more spacious, and better maintained. I only ever entered them if I felt confident they were empty, I always sat on the toilets (in closed stalls), and I never left until the room was empty. I didn't want any other users of the facility to be uncomfortable due to my presence. These were all my choices. Fortunately, I never had an encounter with anyone in dozens of these experiences.

Last month, I was in the Seattle airport and had the pleasure of encountering and using an all-genders public restroom. It was large, had open doors at both ends, maybe 20 closed stalls, and very well lit. People of mixed genders were coming and going. For me, it felt so good and so obvious. I have no doubt there are others who could never bring themselves to use it, and that's fine.

I recently said elsewhere in another discussion that, just as Kinsey showed with sexual behavior, I see now how varied and unique gender identity is and realize that it doesn't lend itself to fitting expectations or distinct categories. And I see no reason why that wouldn't apply to a multitude of human expressions - like eliminating waste from the body.

I can't remember where I first heard it, but I strongly believe that when we say something, no matter what or whom it is about, what we're really telling is something about ourselves. How can it be otherwise? We are the observer, the thinker, the feeler, the opiner. As Tanya pointed out, we all have been conditioned to behave certain ways in certain situations, and we naturally impose those expectations on others. I find it incredibly valuable to learn to recognize when we're doing that and ask ourselves: Where did I get that expectation? Is it reasonable to think that it's shared by everyone? Does it truly serve me?

I also firmly believe that much of our growth as adults comes from unlearning conditioned ways of thinking and behaving so that we can finally see who we've always been beneath those layers of obedience training.

But that's me.

[Mrs. Oliphant]

Thank you so much Tanya, Devlyn, Lilis, and Pema for bringing so much compassion and insight to my attention. In particular, pointing out the unique space reserved for significant others. Like Lilis, I will withdraw from the discussion and trust those better equipped than I am to carry on. Scripting is such a hard nut to crack and I admittedly flounder at times. Love and hugs to all of you, to everyone who cares.