Enough of this biggotry! Guys, (men) please comment!

[Sarah]

So, there is this arguement going arround the Trans. community by some that MTF's who have not had surgery should not use the Womens restroom.

The basis for this arguement is that they have a penis.

I'm done with this.

Guys, (and I do mean men)
What do you think?

Should you not be able to use the mens restroom because you don't have a penis?

I'm currious.

Really.

Is there a debate here?

What do you think?

Please comment.

I just love how Trans Guys are ignored in this commentary.

I want to hear some Guys opinions on this.

These people need to #%$# $%@$%$% as far as I am concerned

[Patroklos]

If bio-men can sit down when they urinate, no one should be able to tell me that I can't do the same in the men's room.

I can't really put it better than that.
The same applies to the women's room. Bio-women sit down on toilets. Women who are also transsexual, pre-op, non-op, or otherwise, should be allowed the same right.

[Terra]

I agree, why should we care whats between (or not) someones legs?!

I was told by the dean to use men's or family rooms on campus, but that isn't always available. I can count on one hand the number of family rooms on this campus, and none of them are in buildings I have class.

I pass, I use women's rooms if I have to, but try not to. I'm in there for one of three reasons, to fix my attire, to do biological business, or to check/fix my makeup. I have no desire to peep, and don't see why people would be worried about me doing so. If I were forced to use men's rooms it would out me and destroy any chances I have at having a normal life in this town.

The claim of men taking advantage of the ability to use women's rooms kinda is doubtful. I sincerely doubt, that with all the negativity around cross dressing or transsexuals, that a man would claim trans status to peep. Women could potentially be accused of this as well, but doubtful.

[tinkerbell]

This topic has been discussed here before:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,22343.0.html

I don't think anyone has a problem with transsexual women (pre-op, post-op,
non-op) using the women's lounge, but of course there are always those who will not share the same views.

tink

[Dennis]

I'd scare the crap out of any woman in there if I tried to use the women's room. Plus if they asked me for ID, I'd get busted for being in the wrong washroom. The plumbing shouldn't matter. If you're a guy, you use the men's room and if you're a woman, use the women's room.

Dennis

[Keira]

The argument was about T's in the broader sense using the women's room,
not transexuals.

IF a barely passable CD uses the women's room, is that a right?
This may be rare, or even it may never happen, but its used
as a bogeyman by the right because lets face it, most women
don't want that!  Do you own "exit poll" at the door of a
mall restroom if you want your own data...

In this case, the solution may be an
unisex restrooms with direct corridor access
and a door that locks is the answer.
Many restaurants have those now instead of two seperate rooms
with flimsier stalls.

[NicholeW.]

I have only seen 'bathrooms' as an argument when the larger argument is, as Keira says, about the Larger T community and a demand that bathrooms should be open to all.

I think the difficulty here is lack of a historical context in where the argument comes from and how it's developed. The argument is not about bathrooms; it's about an agenda.

N~

[Sarah]

No,
It is about bathrooms.


ADDED:

And yes CD's should!
IT ISNT JUST WOMEN!
CD's are FTM as well.
What is the difference?




Posted on: January 20, 2008, 04:29:49 PMBy the way.
Passing is not a valid argument.

There are people here on this forum who have had surgery and do not pass.

Posted on: January 20, 2008, 04:34:27 PMThe only people I ever see objecting are MTF's who have completed surgery.

[joannatsf]

Sometime ago I went to a play.  When intermission came I headed to the ladies and found a line running out the door.  I decided to duck into the mens which was empty when I got there.  As I was finnishing a group of men poured in the door.  They were looking at me like 'why is this woman in here?'  That was the last time I used a public mens room.

[Keira]

90% of CD's identify as men, Sarah. For most, its
not something immutable in their genes.
If your a man and barely look like a women,
don't you think asking to be treated as a
women is a bit much

Anyway, this is headed for a heated argument
again and I don't feel like it. Argue this
points amongst yourself, I'm tired
of being called a bigot for a
thinking I feel is quite sound.

[Sarah]

90% of CD's identify as men, Sarah. For most, its
not something immutable in their genes.
If your a man and barely look like a women,
don't you think asking to be treated as a
women is a bit much

Anyway, this is headed for a heated argument
again and I don't feel like it. Argue this
points amongst yourself, I'm tired
of being called a bigot for a
thinking I feel is quite sound.

Cool.
If they identify as a man, then no.

Ok?

If they don't though, then yes I think they should

[Nero]

Men with (meows) should be allowed in the men's except when it comes to unpassable men such as myself. In fact, I bet there's no amount of T and surgeries that will make me look like a normal man. Too femmy.
I've only ever gone in the men's with male buddies who I knew had my back. I know some unpassable or somewhat passable men regularly use the men's (and they have every right, not saying they don't), but they obviously aren't much for self-preservation.
Why should I put myself in harm's way just to prove a point? Just to prove I'm a man?

[Sarah]

But you would agree they have the right?

[Tanya1]

Here's the law I'd make

A transgender MUST be fully evualated by a therapist to ensure their really what they say they are.

Then they MUST be on hormones and AA's till their sex drive diminishes to low levels and their physical strenght shouldn't be too strong(not that women aren't strong).

Now if they want to use the women's bathroom they must dress in women's clothing not male clothing.

CD's shouldn't be allowed.

[Sarah]

Sex drive?

Sexual preference has nothing to do with gender identity.

And tested?

Why not just if they are full time?

And regarding those who can't go full time yet but are transitioning how would you know?


Actually that is what the whole problem of this comes down to:
How is someone going to know?
And how is someone going to be able to tell the difference between a CD and a Transgender Girl who doesn't pass well?

Are we going to have a panty check at the door?

I agree, Ethically speacking I would like someone who's gender identity is male to not use the female restroom.

But that is where I draw the line. Gender Identity.

And I am certainly not going to stop and ask someone for their papers.

Sara

[Nero]

But you would agree they have the right?

Oh yes, of course. Just don't think it's very smart for an unpassable man. Unpassable women shouldn't set foot in the men's either for pretty much the same reasons.

[Sarah]

As long as we can agree that people should have the right to.

I agree, if someone doesn't pass well, they step in at their own risk.

People might say somthing.

But I do think they should be able to if they want.

[tekla]

I use a unisex bathroom all the time with all people in it.  People go in, do whatever, leave.  No big deal.

I see obvious drop-dead girls go into the men's room all the time at bars, clubs, and concerts (seems like the little girls room line gets huge).  I've never seen a problem.

There is no way to tell between a CD and a TS, save post op, and only then by a pretty humiliating public experience.  And even then, the right wing could still pass 'woman born woman' language.  So that's not even an option.

Since GID is pretty much self-diagnosed to begin with, and since people with money can doctor shop, they can buy whatever papers they want.  So that's not an option either.  Like "medical marijuana' which when it was passed meant people in chemo or with Glaucoma, but in reality, its down to $35 bucks and telling the Doc "I'm stressed" (and who is not). 

[Luc]

WHAT SHOULD IT MATTER?!?!?!?!?!?! You know, long before I even thought of transitioning, I'd use the women's restroom and have women give me funny looks... I even once had two women refuse to use the restroom until I left, because they thought I was a guy. I had breasts. I had long hair. I dressed "feminine" enough. It didn't matter. People are so frickin' ridiculous when it comes to things that should be so simple!!!

So, if a man uses the women's restroom, what, is he automatically a rapist? Is he going to harrass every woman in that room, look up their skirts, fondle them, simply by virtue of his chromosomes? I've been in a million and a half restrooms, having a bladder the size of a pea, and you know what? When people use the bathroom, it's simply to defecate or urinate! If anyone has ulterior motives, then perhaps they should be the ones who must be relegated to the single locking stalls.

People in general need to get a grip. Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room, etcetera, etcetera. There are, unfortunately, a lot of sick people out there, but for god's sakes, they're not the majority! People should have the right to do what they want to do, if they're not hurting themselves or others. That's my opinion.

And for the record, I use the men's room generally, but if there's a line or there's someone in the stall, as I am not in possession of a penis and thus cannot use urinals, I will go in the women's room. I usually just laugh if I get a funny look.

Sebastien Dean

[tekla]

Men are just as likely to be raped in the men's room as women are in the men's room as women are in the women's room

I doubt that, either way.  Rape happens in private, not public spaces as a rule.