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Bad justifications for being a 'real TS' harm us.

Started by Caroline, January 29, 2008, 12:36:34 PM

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Caroline

It is very concerning to me that a fair sized portion of transsexual people STILL use how feminine (or masculine in the case of f2ms) they are to justify their decision to transition.  Or even worse, accuse other people who have transitioned and even had surgery of not being a transsexual based on how masculine acting they are (or feminine for f2ms)(*). When TSs say such things all they do is re-enforce the view that people transition simply based on acting more like the 'other gender' than the gender role they were assigned at birth. 

In the past, when western culture's views on gender roles were much more rigid and people were far more convinced that nature not nurture was the main reason behind the differences in behaviour between men and women the type of argument I mentioned above had some success.  Increasingly though, gender roles are becoming less restrictive and it's becoming more acceptable for people to behave 'like the other gender'.  Still though, the classical justifications above probably still have some success, particularly with members of the older generation.  5, 10, 20 years into the future however?  Such arguments are going to be routinely used AGAINST transsexual people.  If we wait till that time before we start to argue in a more sensible manner it's going to take a long time to undo the damage already done.

More and more, cisgender people are accusing TSs of 'fighting the wrong battle'.  They see us as people who have mutilated or wish to mutilate ourselves just to fit into society more easily.  From their perspective, it seems so drastic and unnecessary for someone to do something so serious to themselves just so they're not seen as abnormal.  Who can blame people for holding this view, it's a logical conclusion from the justifications transseuxal people themselves have voiced repeatedly.

When TSs demand to be accepted as members of their adopted gender role by arguing that it's a physical medical condition and they can't help it, they're simply trying to expand the definition of 'normal' to include them, rather than say it's ok to be something a bit different.  Further proof that reinforcing stereotypes is part of the transsexual agenda.  Is it any wonder that a proportion of queer identified cisgender people really don't have any time for transsexuals?

I'm not saying don't be binary identified and I'm not saying don't be a feminine woman or a masculine man.  What I'm saying is don't use how gender role conforming your behaviour is or how 'normal' you are to justify being a transsexual because it simply DOESN'T WORK.  The counter arguments are so simple and easy to make that any idiot transphobe (or even person that has nothing against transsexuals but just doubts that our condition is real) can make us look stupid with little effort.

Once we stop doing this, and instead start arguing based on us having a neurological condition we might actually be seen as something other than ->-bleeped-<-s that have 'GONE TOO FAR'. 


On a separate note, I can already visualise people reading the previous sentence and getting worked up because neurological might imply mental condition not physical condition.  First think of it this way, people with Asperger's or ADD or similar conditions are not freaks or 'mental', they're just people with unusual neurological wiring.  TSs are in an even better position, their neurological condition is just having the 'wrong' one of two normal states (brain wired male / brain wired female).  People getting worked up at this explanation because 'its like saying we're mental' need to realise it doesn't imply what they think it implies. 

XY chromosomes generally produce male body, male mind (ignoring genetic issues like SRY problems or androgen insensitivity).  We can easily explain m2fs as having male body, female mind, i.e. a neurological (or god forbid 'mental') condition.  However some people seem to prefer to argue that it's a physical condition.  Come up with a justification for how m2fs have female brain, male chromosomes and male hormones but somehow their body is the thing that is wrong, then give some consideration to Occam's razor.

(*stating other people's gender identity's are wrong simply because they might behave in a manner somewhat consistant with the the gender role they were raised in is low, very low.  I'm not saying ALL TSs are 'genuine' but dismissing people on such shallow grounds really shows what a limited view of transsexualism some TSs truly have)
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Rachael

bingo.... said this before, the 'if you transition and your happy afterwards, then its right for you!'
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...
its not bloody makebelive... you arnt in elementry school ffs...
R >:D
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Seshatneferw

Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...

Sort of. There's still room for variation, though: an MtF TG transitions because she needs a female gender role (to match her identity), while an MtF TS transitions because she needs a female body (to match her mind). In the latter case, life will be much easier if she transitions socially as well (plus, of course, the SoC require that for SRS).

I'm not sure either of these reasons is any more or less valid than the other, but they are different. Arguments about one of them (either for or against) may well be completely irrelevant to the other.

  Nfr
Whoopee! Man, that may have been a small one for Neil, but it's a long one for me.
-- Pete Conrad, Apollo XII
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Caroline

Quote from: Seshatneferw on January 29, 2008, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: Rachael on January 29, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
here was me thinking m2fs transitioned BECAUSE they were female, not just cos they liked being female or wanted to be...

Sort of. There's still room for variation, though: an MtF TG transitions because she needs a female gender role (to match her identity), while an MtF TS transitions because she needs a female body (to match her mind). In the latter case, life will be much easier if she transitions socially as well (plus, of course, the SoC require that for SRS).

I'm not sure either of these reasons is any more or less valid than the other, but they are different. Arguments about one of them (either for or against) may well be completely irrelevant to the other.

  Nfr


Just to be clear, I have nothing against the TG type people you mention.  As I don't believe in enforcing gendered behaviour or gender roles there is nothing wrong with somebody living as whatever gender they want to, no matter what their body image is (if indeed they have one, some people don't) or how they identify.  However the people my original post was aimed at are the 'I am a real woman not like these transgenderists' types who would HATE to have the TG label applied to them (see the Harry Benjamin Syndrome crowd for example).
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Natasha

pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was.  i didn't transitioned to be "different".  And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.
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Caroline

Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 03:40:14 PM
pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was.  i didn't transitioned to be "different".  And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.

So you saying you put effort into conforming to expected behaviour and roles or it was all just natural to you?  If the latter, then good for you, though I don't see what relevance it has to the point that I was making about justifying transition.
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tekla

At the end of the day, the "why" never matters.  Because of this, or that - few, if any, ever care.  What they do long for is not the reason, but the confidence in the decision.  The honesty of the life.  The ideal that you choose what you choose because its right for you, because its what you want, because its right.  Any sort of plea that tends to color to any sort of coercion is going to be seen as just that, and held less valid because of it.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Natasha

Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 03:44:26 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 03:40:14 PM
pesonaly i trantioned because i am a woman and wanted others to see (a body congruence with my gender) who i was.  i didn't transitioned to be "different".  And this includes behaviour, roles and all but that's me.

So you saying you put effort into conforming to expected behaviour and roles or it was all just natural to you?  If the latter, then good for you, though I don't see what relevance it has to the point that I was making about justifying transition.

oh no, no effort on my part. for me it was a matter of "undoing" male behavior rather than assimilating a new one.  but the thing is that if you are happy with what you're accomplishing, that's all it matters.  we can't expect other people to agree with our viewpoints.  the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.
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tekla

a matter of "undoing" male behavior rather than assimilating a new one

I wonder if I stripped everything else away, took it down to the bone, and pushed it hard, how much of it was really undone?
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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NicholeW.

Much as I hate to agree with tekla, I do here. The justifications are for the 'us.' Not for the 'them.' For the most part they are going to see things as they do. O, the more info that's available the more they are likely to become accepting. And the neurological variances and similarities if not yet conclusive are certainly pointing toward areas of study that may well prove conclusive of a neurological intersex condition (or whatever designation it is given.)

Social constructs are what they are. But, there are a few seeming differences between the sexes that are probably hard-wired into the brain and are enhanced by estrogen and testosterone. Among those 'field vision' rather than 'concentrated vision,' a tendency better enhanced 'color vision, 'tomyelinated neurons and un-myelinated neuron quantities, an enhanced degree of 'communion' and 'agency' a tendency to 'fight-flight' and a tendency to 'gather-stay.' Some of these are distributed through the spectrum of human-being but in much greater numbers in one sex than in the other.

That is one reason I relate 'gender' to social custom and 'sex' to biology. And why I prefer 'transsexuality' over 'transgender.' One appears more accurate and biological than the other.

How these play out may well be the basis for otherwise culturally learned responses.

Am I a woman because I like 'pink' or 'satin?' Hardly.

N~
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Caroline

Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.

That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.
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NicholeW.

As for 'doing' and 'undoing,' I suspect that the answer is more than tekla seems to expect. Lots of behavioral studies to show that regardless the conditioning sometimes if the 'conditioned behavior' is uncomfortable enough for the conditioned person, the conditioning becomes a utilitarian overlay that can quite easily be dispensed with in the absence of the coercion to employ it.

N~
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buttercup

Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.

That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.


Yes, unfortunately that's what it boils down to.  :)
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tekla

When I was a kid, I would go with my mama, back to her home, where there were "colored" bathrooms - and everything else.  Today, as I'm watching a near certain possibility that the same person who could not go to the same bathroom as I, is about to be elected President of the USA.  Perhaps that is a statement as to how bad Bush II screwed the pooch that he pretty much made it impossible for a white guy to be elected president, or - maybe, just maybe - that change is possible. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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debbie.j

Quote from: buttercup on January 29, 2008, 04:42:28 PM
Quote from: Andra on January 29, 2008, 04:19:15 PM
Quote from: Natasha on January 29, 2008, 04:08:25 PM
the key is to live your life as you so please and be content with it.

That often depends on being somewhere where other people will permit you to do that.


Yes, unfortunately that's what it boils down to.  :)

::) ::) ::)   umm maybe not maybe it might boil down to that  maybe. but then again .

maybe it depends on being some where  that you can or let your self  to premit your self to do that

but what  do i know  ::) ::) ::)   just a thought iam haveing  ::) ::)





Posted on: January 29, 2008, 05:08:04 PM
Quote from: tekla on January 29, 2008, 05:05:48 PM
When I was a kid, I would go with my mama, back to her home, where there were "colored" bathrooms - and everything else.  Today, as I'm watching a near certain possibility that the same person who could not go to the same bathroom as I, is about to be elected President of the USA.  Perhaps that is a statement as to how bad Bush II screwed the pooch that he pretty much made it impossible for a white guy to be elected president, or - maybe, just maybe - that change is possible. 

indeed tekla  change is always possible :)
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tekla

I count on it, work for it, bet the farm on it.  But that is the USA, other nations might not be so quick, nor have a history so soaked in blood to justify that faith either.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Rachael

why do natal women conform to some gender 'steriotypes'?
because its natural for them? or because society expects it?
i vote the later... social trimmings are social trimmings,
at the end of the day, we are who we are, then we are who we are raised ontop....
at the end of the day we act in a certian social way, becuse society expects it, be you cisgender, transgender, or a flying tortoise with 4 paws and a peacocks tail....
we behave as 'normal' becuse its expected, its usually fairly tollerable, and not a biggy.

Society has rules, usually thier alright... IMO, there is no such thing as defacto behavour or tendacies fora gender...
a girl raised by a single mother with all sisters is more likely to be quite feminine.
a girl raised by a single father with all brothers is likely to be fairly tomboyish.
neither is less female, neither is more. Society just expects the first.
R >:D
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SarahFaceDoom

Maybe it's my liberal arts background that causes this, but I'm extremely reticient to rely on "I have a condition" as arguementation.  What if they develop a test for this condition, and it says I'm not a woman after all.  Does that mean I have to transition back or something?

I don't like being seen as someone with a disability.  I don't want to be seen as a disorder either.  I feel like both of those are sort of victim mentality's and shirk a lot of responsibility.  "I can't help it, it's just the way I was born, poor me" doesn't sit well with me.

Why does there need to be an excuse and explanation at all?  Why can't I just own my choices in life and be afforded the respect to be judged on my own terms?  Who cares WHY I identify as a woman.  I am one so let's move forward

Anyone who views SRS as living with a mutaliation, probably doesn't like tatoos or piercings either.  Give me a break.  It's 2008.  Time to evolve our understanding of identity.
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tekla

flying tortoise with 4 paws and a peacocks tail

Oh that's so me, at least when I did acid.  But now, I'm down with SarahFD, and its just what I am.  I do not lie to people, nor do I live a lie.  "I Yam what I Yam" as Popeye would say.  Such stuff is governed by my time in space, I had options that others never could dream of, and some that came in a time and space were I was not.  So be it.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Rachael

the lieing is living as a dude... not 'not telling people that your trans'
R >:D
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