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Grapefruit Effect Questions

Started by JodieBlonde, January 30, 2008, 11:27:06 AM

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JodieBlonde

Does anyone have any information of the amount required or the time factor that grapefruit juice stays active in your system?

Is it necessary to take the juice before or with or immediately after medicating?

REF: The first-pass effect and the effect grapefruit has on negating that effect.

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Sarah Louise

Grapefruit juice can interact with many different prescriptions drugs.  I know several of the prescriptions I take suggest not to drink it.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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Jordan

I specifically asked my Endo about this last time I saw her, her reply was simply.

Although Spirolac is potassium sparing it is not essential to negate it from the diet at all, in fact the amount of potaaium that the body can process while on spiro is sufficient enough to pass the pottasium without harmful builup,

but if you go off and eat like 9 bannanas you may be in trouble...

Overall dont eat a whole bag of potato chips, but you can have a serving just fine, without health worries.


I dont know if that was your question but thats my .02
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Steph

One food that you may steer clear of while on spiro is bananas as they are very high in potassium.  The only drug that I am aware of where grapefruit juice really messes with your system is Lipitor.  I had an unfortunate experience at a restaurant.  I was having breakfast and asked for orange juice.  Unbeknownst to me it also contained grapefruit juice.  Needless to say I was quite ill for a day.

The bottom line is though, if your Dr says that you can take grapefruit juice then go for it.

Steph
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Anonymouse

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Hypatia

Quote from: JodieBlonde on January 30, 2008, 11:27:06 AMREF: The first-pass effect and the effect grapefruit has on negating that effect.
What does that mean?

My bloodwork showed me too high in potassium, and I blamed it on the orange juice I'd recently started drinking. So what do you think I did-- that's right. Substituted grapefruit juice. It had somewhat lower potassium than orange juice, after all. Then we repeated the bloodwork and my K was still too high.

Anyway, my doctor halved my dosage of spiro so I should be OK. But I wonder if I will be getting more effects of T now. That would suck.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Jaynatopia

Quote from: Hypatia on May 01, 2008, 02:51:18 PM
Anyway, my doctor halved my dosage of spiro so I should be OK. But I wonder if I will be getting more effects of T now. That would suck.


I would have discussed that with him. You want to make sure your T is under say 60 or so after cutting down on the spiro. Unless he had been giving you a bit too much then it would be okay.
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Hypatia

He told me spiro doesn't change the level of T in the blood (well it does, sort of, but not directly). Spiro blocks the T from getting to the cells' receptors, to prevent its having an effect. What lowers the production of T is more E. He upped my E to the maximum dose that he considers safe.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •  

joannatsf

If you're really concerned about potassium ask your MD about adding Lasix to the mix.  I do and I eat as many bananas and potatoes as I want.  Sodium is my only concern, and that's not related to Aldactone.

By the way, the brand name for spironolactone is Aldactone, which is a whole lot shorter.  Two syllables in fact!
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Aiden

what's this abut Grapefruit?  It effects meds?
Every day we pass people, do we see them or the mask they wear?
If you live under a mask long enough, does it eventually break or wear down?  Does it become part you?  Maybe alone, they are truly themselves?  Or maybe they have forgotten or buried themselves so long, they forget they are not a mask?
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emilykitten

Quote from: Aiden on August 03, 2008, 07:34:36 PM
what's this abut Grapefruit?  It effects meds?

Yes... Grapefruit is metabolised in the liver by the same enzymes which a lot of other drugs use. For those of us in Europe where we use Androcur as a T blocker, grapefruit juice is a no-no since it may result in liver damage and will certainly reduce the effectiveness of the Androcur.

My old endocrinologist told me how Florida sees regular deaths each year thanks to grapefruit diets... Each year, the pensioners down there eat too much at Christmas (like we all do) and then in January start diets to get rid of those extra kilos. Of course, the grapefruit diet is a famous way of losing weight and detoxing fairly quickly but what does grapefruit juice conflict with? A lot of hear medicines! So, apparently, these pensioners are having heart attacks and dropping like flies because of doing something which they think is very healthy.

I don't know how true this is, but since I'm on Androcur I don't drink grapefruit juice or ear grapefruits anymore, which is a big problem... I loooove grapefruit! :(

EDIT: Oops... Anonymouse's link in her post explains this much better than I can!
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Aiden

Wow!  Why haven't I heard about this before :(

I like grapefruit, but haven't had it in years, but is just because never bothered to buy any.. except for grapefruit soda.  I must been lucky or something that none of my meds have taken over the years has reacted to it as far as know.

But dang... if this is so serious why haven't we heard of it?   
Every day we pass people, do we see them or the mask they wear?
If you live under a mask long enough, does it eventually break or wear down?  Does it become part you?  Maybe alone, they are truly themselves?  Or maybe they have forgotten or buried themselves so long, they forget they are not a mask?
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JodieBlonde

I just talked to my endocrinologist yesterday about this very topic.

She said that of the drugs/meds that have a warning for no co-grapefruit imbibing, the warning is really overblown.

A small glass or so a week will not harm anyone except the very vulnerable and those with liver damage already.

The first-pass liver's effect metabolizes those so-affected drugs and diminishes their maximum efficacy as the liver takes out about 1/2 of the drug the first time it passes through it via the blood stream.

This "cleansing" takes place very rapidly! Some times the liver can reduce the drug in fifteen minutes or less.

This only concerns drugs taken by mouth or sublingually.

(SOME) Drugs, designed to be considerate of this situation, have a higher dose to keep the drug in the dosage required by upping the compound in anticipation of the liver's powerful ability to remove it rapidly.

What happens is that the liver is SO busy working with the grapefruit, it has little ability to handle the drug/medication too at the same time. It's an enzyme-receiver type effect. If all the receptors are filled with grapefruit, the drug has to stand by until the liver isn't so busy.

IF the liver has been told to concern itself with grapefruit juice compounds, reducing it's cleansing ability for a short time, then these drugs are left to stay in the blood stream at full or nearly full capacity for a longer period of time and that's where the trouble is. Overdoses happen this way.

Now...a person drinking grapefruit juice has to keep on taking it as the effect lasts only for 1/2 to a full day, but it diminishes rapidly as the liver recovers and gets back to business.

Constant and/or persistent drinking of grapefruit juice is usually required to keep the first-pass effect shut down in MOST people. Remember that medicine is designed to address MOST people, not ALL people.

In any rate, the effect of minimizing the first-pass effect requires some basic co-conditions to be in effect.

1) The drug must be oral or sub lingual; inoculations or IM injections are not involved.
2) The drug must be first-pass affected by the liver.
3) Grapefruit must be consumed fairly constantly over days or weeks both pre- and post-medicating, to achieve this effect.
4) The person taking the combination must be susceptible to the effect ie: good liver capacity impressionability.



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joannatsf

I have level C cirrhosis, AKA End-Stage Liver Disease due to Hep-C.  In the last 15 years I have been under the care of 4 different liver specialist including the transplant hepatologist I now see.  In addition I participated in discussion groups with hundreds of other liver patients.  Presently I take 5 different medications to treat complications of ESLD plus psych meds and hormones.  This is the first time anyone has ever mentioned grapefruit was bad for those with liver disease.  In fact the only dietary restrictions I have are for salt (edema and ascietes) and sushi, which may have parasites (rare) if poor quality fish is used.  I'm rather fond of pink grapefruit juice and have had no problems from drinking it.  My MELD score has hovered between 12 and 15 for years.
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JodieBlonde

Quote from: Claire de Lune on August 05, 2008, 08:54:55 PM
I have level C cirrhosis, AKA End-Stage Liver Disease due to Hep-C.  In the last 15 years I have been under the care of 4 different liver specialist including the transplant hepatologist I now see.  In addition I participated in discussion groups with hundreds of other liver patients.  Presently I take 5 different medications to treat complications of ESLD plus psych meds and hormones.  This is the first time anyone has ever mentioned grapefruit was bad for those with liver disease.  In fact the only dietary restrictions I have are for salt (edema and ascietes) and sushi, which may have parasites (rare) if poor quality fish is used.  I'm rather fond of pink grapefruit juice and have had no problems from drinking it.  My MELD score has hovered between 12 and 15 for years.

Maybe there's a mis-communication here.....

BAD for people with liver disease wasn't mentioned unless it pertained to the use of drugs and medications that the grapefruit juice would COMPETE with for receptor space.

If you are not using something that is in a fight for the same receptors that the grapefruit juice has locked up, then I don't think there's any conflict.

This post originally started to ask about liver-v-grapefruit juice as it pertains to the use of HRT and possible effects in the "first-pass" scenario. Hepatitus never entered the conversation to which I am aware until you mentioned it.

Sorry to hear of your condition..I know it's very debilitating and depressing, but my heart's in your court for a cure or at least a way to control the ravages of your situation. My prayer is with you.



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PSPam

Hope these help  ;-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Public release date: 4-Feb-2008

Contact: Sue McGreevey
smcgreevey@partners.org
617-724-2764
Massachusetts General Hospital

Grapefruit compound may help combat hepatitis C infection

MGH study reveals mechanism key to maintaining chronic infection, potential therapy target
A compound that naturally occurs in grapefruit and other citrus fruits may be able to block the secretion of hepatitis C virus (HCV) from infected cells, a process required to maintain chronic infection. A team of researchers from the Massachusetts General Hospital Center for Engineering in Medicine (MGH-CEM) report that HCV is bound to very low-density lipoprotein (vLDL, a so-called "bad" cholesterol) when it is secreted from liver cells and that the viral secretion required to pass infection to other cells may be blocked by the common flavonoid naringenin.

If the results of this study extend to human patients, a combination of naringenin and antiviral medication might allow patient to clear the virus from their livers. The report will appear in an upcoming issue of the journal Hepatology and has been released online.

"By finding that HCV is secreted from infected cells by latching onto vLDL, we have identified a key pathway in the viral lifecycle," says Yaakov Nahmias, PhD, of the MGH-CEM, the paper's lead author. "These results suggest that lipid-lowering drugs, as well as supplements, such as naringenin, may be combined with traditional antiviral therapies to reduce or even eliminate HCV from infected patients"

HCV is the leading cause of chronic viral liver disease in the United States and infects about 3 percent of the world population. Current antiviral medications are effective in only half of infected patients, 70 percent of whom develop chronic infection that can lead to cirrhosis or liver cancer. Since the virus does not integrate its genetic material into the DNA of infected cells the way HIV does, totally clearing the virus could be possible if new cells were not being infected by secreted virus.

"Identifying the route by which HCV is released from cells introduces a new therapeutic target," says Martin Yarmush, MD, PhD, director of the MGH-CEM and the paper's senior author. "That pathway's dependence on cholesterol metabolism could allow us to interfere with viral propagation to other cells and tissues, using tools already developed for atherosclerosis treatment." Yarmush is the Helen Andrus Benedict Professor of Surgery and Bioengineering at Harvard Medical School (HMS).

Grapefruit's bitter taste is caused the presence of the flavonoid naringin, which is metabolized into naringenin, an antioxidant previously reported to help lower cholesterol levels. Considerable research has suggested that HCV infects liver cells by, in essence, "hitching a ride" onto the natural lipoprotein-cholesterol metabolic pathway. Since earlier evidence has shown that naringenin can reduce secretion of vLDL from liver cells, the researchers examined whether the compound might also lower HCV secretion from infected cells. Their experiments confirmed that naringenin does reduce the secretion of HCV from infected cell lines and showed that the compound inhibits the mechanism for secreting a specific lipoprotein that binds HCV.

"This work presents the possibility that non-toxic levels of a dietary supplement, such as naringenin, could effectively block HCV secretion," says Raymond Chung, MD, MGH director of Hepatology and one of the study authors, "This approach might eventually be used to treat patients who do not respond to or cannot take traditional interferon-based treatment or be used in combination with other agents to boost success rates."


###

Chung is an associate professor of Medicine at HMS, and Nahmias is an instructor in Surgery and Bioengineering. Additional co-authors of the Hepatology paper are Jonathan Goldwasser, Monica Casali, PhD, Daan van Poll, MD, MGH-CEM; and Takaji Wakita, MD, Tokyo Metropolitan Institute. The work was supported by grants from the National Institutes of Health and Shriners Hospitals for Children.

Massachusetts General Hospital (www.massgeneral.org), established in 1811, is the original and largest teaching hospital of Harvard Medical School. The MGH conducts the largest hospital-based research program in the United States, with an annual research budget of more than $500 million and major research centers in AIDS, cardiovascular research, cancer, computational and integrative biology, cutaneous biology, human genetics, medical imaging, neurodegenerative disorders, regenerative medicine, systems biology, transplantation biology and photomedicine.

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-02/mgh-gcm020408.php
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grapefruit and medication: A cautionary note

Grapefruit and grapefruit juice are healthful, providing enough vitamin C, potassium, dietary fiber, and other nutrients to earn the American Heart Association's "heart-check" mark. That's the good news. The bad news is that grapefruit juice can interact with dozens of medications, sometimes dangerously.

Doctors are not sure which of the hundreds of chemicals in grapefruit are responsible. The leading candidate is furanocoumarin. It is also found in Seville (sour) oranges and tangelos; although these fruits have not been studied in detail, the guidelines for grapefruit should apply to them as well.

Grapefruit's culprit chemical does not interact directly with your pills. Instead, it binds to an enzyme in your intestinal tract known as CYP3A4, which reduces the absorption of certain medications. When grapefruit juice blocks the enzyme, it's easier for the medication to pass from your gut to your bloodstream. Blood levels will rise faster and higher than normal, and in some cases the abnormally high levels can be dangerous.

A variety of medications can be boosted by grapefruit juice; the table below lists some of the most important along with related drugs that are less likely to be influenced.

Grapefruit juice and medications
Drug category (major uses)
Medications substantially boosted by grapefruit juice

Generic name (Brand name)
Medications that have little or no interaction with grapefruit juice

Generic name (Brand name)

Calcium channel blockers (high blood pressure, angina)
Felodipine (Plendil)

Nifedipine (Procardia, Adalat)
Verapamil (Calan, Isoptin)

Diltiazem (Cardizem)

Amlodipine (Norvasc)

Statins (high cholesterol)
Atorvastatin (Lipitor)

Simvastatin (Zocor)

Lovastatin (Mevacor)
Fluvastatin (Lescol)

Pravastatin (Pravachol)

Rosuvastatin (Crestor)

Immunosuppressants (to prevent rejection of transplanted organs)
Cyclosporine (Sandimmune)
 

Benzodiazepines (anxiety, insomnia)
Diazepam (Valium)

Triazolam (Halcion)

Midazolam (Versed)
Flurazepam (Dalmane)

Clonazepam (Klonopin)

Other neurological and psychiatric medications
Buspirone (BuSpar)

Sertraline (Zoloft)

Carbamazepine (Tegretol)
Haloperidol (Haldol)

Trazodone (Desyrel)

Zolpidem (Ambien)


It doesn't take much grapefruit juice to boost the levels of drugs that are susceptible. A single glass can produce a 47% reduction of the intestinal enzyme that regulates absorption. And because this effect of the juice wears off slowly, a third of its impact is still evident after 24 hours.

What are the practical implications of this interaction? If you take one of the affected medications, the simplest solution is to switch to orange juice. If you are really hooked on grapefruit juice, though, you can ask your doctor whether you can switch to a related drug that's less vulnerable to the boosting effect. And if that's not possible, you should certainly avoid taking your pills and your juice simultaneously; the more time between the two, the better, and the smaller your glass of juice, the better. If you are on a low or moderate dose of the medication, you can probably get away with an occasional glass of grapefruit juice, but if you are on a high dose, it could be dangerous. That's especially true in the case of calcium channel blockers, which can lower your blood pressure or slow your heart rate excessively

Sildenafil (Viagra) is of special interest to men. The clinical information is incomplete, but men who take Viagra should be aware that grapefruit juice might boost blood levels of the drug. That could be a good thing for some men with erectile dysfunction, but it could trigger headaches, flushing, or low blood pressure.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update0206d.shtml
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Grapefruit Juice And Medication Can Be A Dangerous Mix

ScienceDaily (Jan. 26, 2005) — January 18, 2005 -- Grapefruit juice can be dangerous for people on certain medications, nurse researchers remind doctors, nurses, and everyone who takes medicine and enjoys grapefruit juice, in a paper in the American Journal of Nursing, a journal of the American Nurses Association.

Amy Karch, R.N., M.S., of the School of Nursing at the University of Rochester Medical Center reported on a man from a northern climate who moved to Florida for the winter – one of tens of thousands of "snowbirds" who head south each winter – and began drinking two to three glasses of grapefruit juice each day. The man became critically ill as a result of an interaction between grapefruit juice and his cholesterol-lowering medication.

Karch's paper, "The Grapefruit Challenge: The juice inhibits a crucial enzyme, with possibly fatal consequences," appears in the December 2004 issue of the journal.

Interactions between grapefruit juice and medications have long been recognized. Last year, the Medical Letter on Drugs and Therapeutics devoted an entire issue to grapefruit juice and the dangerous drug interactions that can result. The U.S. Food & Drug Administration requires all prospective new drugs that are thought to interact with this enzyme system to be tested for interactions with grapefruit juice. And a warning about grapefruit juice is included in the "food-drug interactions" that come with dozens of medications. Nevertheless, Karch says many health-care professionals and patients don't know about the risk.

"The potential of drug interactions with grapefruit juice has been out there a long time, but most people just aren't aware of it," says Karch, a clinical associate professor of nursing. "There is so much information bombarding people all the time, that a lot of people may have heard this but forgotten it. But the problems can be life-threatening."

The patient profiled in Karch's article had high cholesterol and other risk factors for cardiac disease. The doctor put the patient on atorvastatin (Lipitor), and the patient began dieting and exercising. Two months after the patient went to Florida for the winter, he suddenly had muscle pain, fatigue and fever, and went to the emergency room. The patient ended up going into kidney failure and ultimately died.

The only major change in the person's lifestyle had been that, upon arriving in Florida, he began picking grapefruit off a tree on the patio and drinking two or three glasses of fresh grapefruit juice every day.

Karch, an expert on drug interactions, explains that grapefruit juice is one of the foods most likely to cause problems with drugs, because it is metabolized by the same enzyme in the liver that breaks down many drugs. The cytochrome P-450 3A4 enzyme breaks down grapefruit juice into useful components for body, just like it breaks down dozens of medications. Karch says when the system is overloaded, the grapefruit juice can "swamp" the system, keeping the liver busy and blocking it from breaking down drugs and other substances.

Drugs that use the same pathway and interact with grapefruit juice target some of the most common health problems doctors see today. The list consists of more than 50 medications, including some drugs used to treat high cholesterol, depression, high blood pressure, cancer, depression, pain, impotence, and allergies.

Karch notes that interactions with grapefruit juice are well known and documented among drug researchers, and that an appropriate warning label is included with each prescription. Nevertheless, she says that many patients, nurses and doctors aren't aware of the interactions or the potential serious consequences, and that many people fail to read the warning labels about drug-food interactions.

The consequences of an interaction depend on the drug involved. A person on an anti-depressant might have too much or too little energy, depending on the specific medication. Someone on antibiotics might end up with diarrhea or could be ill longer than usual because the some drugs won't work as well as they should. A heart patient might not get the lowered blood pressure that a medication should deliver, or the heart's rhythms might become irregular if an anti-arrhythmia drug can't do its job. The juice could also affect the effectiveness of a woman's hormone-replacement-therapy medication.

The most severe effects are likely with some cholesterol-lowering medications, Karch says. While the liver devotes its resources to grapefruit juice, the medication could build up to dangerous levels, causing a breakdown of the body's muscles and even kidney failure. This is likely what happened to the patient discussed in the article, Karch says.

To prevent such problems, Karch repeats what doctors and nurses tell their patients every day: Read a medication's warning label carefully. If an interaction with grapefruit juice is possible, the patient should stop drinking the juice until speaking with his or her doctor. In some cases it might be possible to switch a patient to a different drug without the risk; in other cases the patient might simply have to give up grapefruit juice.

She says that more people than usual are vulnerable at this time of year, because losing weight is among the most popular New Year resolutions, and some diets are built around drinking lots of grapefruit juice.

Karch's paper is the latest in a column the journal devotes to "practice errors," where nurses report unusual clinical problems and Karch looks into how widespread the problem might be. Last year she also reported that nurses had found that some types of skin patches could catch on fire when patients receive magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans.

# # #

Drugs that Interact with Grapefruit Juice:

(from the December 2004 issue of the American Journal of Nursing)
Antibiotics: clarithromycin, erythromycin, troleandomycin
Anxiolytics: alprazolam, buspirone, midazolam, triazolam
Antiarrhythmics: amiodarone, quinidine
Anticoagulant: warfarin
Antiepileptic: carbamazepine
Antifungal: itraconazole
Anthelmintic: albendazole
Antihistamine: fexofenadine
Antineoplastics: cyclophosphamide, etoposide, ifosfamide, tamoxifen, vinblastine, vincristine
Antitussive: dextromethorphan
Antivirals: amprenavir, indinavir, nelfinavir, ritonavir, saquinavir
Benign prostatic hyperplasia treatment: finasteride
β-blockers: carvedilol
Calcium channel blockers: diltiazem, felodipine, nicardipine, nifedipine, nimodipine, nisoldipine, verapamil
Erectile dysfunction drugs: sildenafil, tadalafil
Hormone replacement: cortisol, estradiol, methylprednisolone, progesterone, testosterone
Immunosuppressants: cyclosporine, sirolimus, tacrolimus
HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors: atorvastatin, fluvastatin, lovastatin, simvastatin
Opioids: alfentanil, fentanyl, sufentanil
Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors: fluvoxamine, sertraline
Xanthine: theophylline

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/01/050124010803.htm


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joannatsf

Pam, people with liver disease need to be wary of all meds.  Benzodiazapines are generally avoided altogether.  Most drugs we use are at the lowest dose because the drugs take longer to clear our systems.  My PC doctor recently said that a normal person clears Ambien in about 12 hours it takes me like 24-36 hours which is why I always feel bad after using it as a sleep aid.  It's interesting that so many cardiac related drugs.  For myself my liver disease has made a major contribution to to the good health of my coronary arteries! 

Jodie, I only mentioned the HCV as the source of my liver disease.  The first pass of estrogen isn't a problem if you use a trans-dermal or injection type of hormone which is what I've always done.

Thank you for your sympathies. too.  While I'd rather not have it, I've learned a great deal from my illness.  Mortality has an uncanny ability to focus the mind.  It gave me the push I needed to transition, change my career and just be grateful for the gifts and people bestowed upon me. 
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