'Any transgender, on plain reading of statute, could obtain entry to female rest

[Rachael]

I doubt that there will be any sort of gay or trans Kristallnacht in the U.S. for several reasons, but mostly the Second Amendment, coupled with a broad willingness to use it.  What is happening is a gradual coming apart into different areas that can scarcely recognize the other - and increasingly can't speak to each other.  The red/blue split, which is also an educational split, and income split, a economic split, a cultural divide, a social gap, an urban/rural deal, and a coastal/interior problem is just going to grow.

so ->-bleeped-<-s with guns out gun rednecks and haters with guns? give me a break, your gun obsessed Tekla...


There will be something of the sort, in the US, most likely, as its so far the most intollerant place. There will be a watershed.... mark my words.
there will come a point where integration somehow offends society, and i wouldnt be suprised if the 1930s style markines happened. transpeople MUST have a T on thier forehead lol ><
Sometimes things go back before forewards.

Nichole_W: 'mbt' 'wbt' <-- sorry, i dont listen to rap music....?
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[NicholeW.]

Nichole_W: 'mbt' 'wbt' <-- sorry, i dont listen to rap music....?
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'men born transsexual' and 'women born transsexual' -- newish political jargon that's been around for a few years. Response to 'womyn born womyn'.

You're right about the precarious and somewhat silly thought that trannies with guns are gonna maintain themselves against a goodly sized town in Wyoming, like Casper. *smile*

The 'out-gun' is absolutely about as delusional as anyone's going to get. Altho its not unusual to see that sorta talk from minority members who live in an enclave that has a very large number of minority members. Its a common human trait. We extrapolate our own tiny slice of it to the world at large. Generally we see 'more of us' than there are.


But, overall, Karen is right, the topic has been exhilarating. Try not to spoil it, sweetie!! 


Nichole

[HelenW]

It seems to me that the assumption underlying the "men in bathrooms" fear tactic is the one we need to fight against.  The radical right wingers maintain that we are not who we say we are, they maintain that we cannot be female in male bodies or male in female bodies.  This is the untrue assumption that they want everyone to swallow.  Julia Serano calls this oppositional sexism.  Others might call it essentialism, the idea that we are wholly and unchangeably defined by our biology.

If we can destroy the cultural belief in this assumption then the whole strategy of fear is easily vanquished.  It won't be "men" in bathrooms anymore (ever notice how the FtM population is always ignored in these propaganda tactics?).

Our access to the medical, social and political rights that others enjoy seems to hinge on this one important fact, that we are born with bodies that do not match our psyches.  This covers all of the transgendered umbrella, even those who reject that term.  I think we need to push the point that we are not "men in ladies' rooms" but women in our own right no matter what our biology was before.

Hugs & Smiles
Emelye

PS:  Once again, I feel the need to make this disclaimer:  I am all for protecting people's right to public accommodation based on their identity.  I do not condone offensive and disturbing behavior within these public accommodations by anyone, especially restrooms and changing areas.  I define offensive behavior as that behavior which offends the majority of persons who witness it.  But then again, behavior like this is usually already illegal, isn't it?

[Keira]

Huh, CD's in general don't believe their anything but men.
So, in their case at least. Men in the women's restroom
is right no matter how you look at it.

I think instead of putting everyone under an umbrella
that I don't feel fits and falling on our face,
it would be better to create an adaptative
response to most people's concerns.

Reducing everyone who's not ready to accept every T
including every CD in a women's restroom as a bigot
is something that is a non starter as an argument
basis (because some of these are plainly men).

I think changing the issue into, insuring everyone
has access to a restroom (something even
nutters can't disagree on) and finding a solution
to this is a better tack. The solution is increasing
the availability of family rooms and gender neutral
restrooms. This solution actually respects
everyone's concerns without being a zero sum game;
everyone gains.

Family rooms in particular is
something that could get a lot of support since
having men accompany their daughters in
women's room is not seen as good and
having the daughter go into the men's room
is not ideal either.

In montreal, many places now have one room
with a corridor access bathroom with sink,
a changing board. Its gender neutral,
a family room and also it makes
handicaped access much easier. Everyone wins.

[gennee]

How I handle the bathroom issue is that I go before I head out. If I have to use the bathroom I'll use which ever is appropriate and availble. Most places i have gone to dressed have had single bathrooms.

Gennee

[Jordan]

How hard would it be for our goverment to make something where you get your therapist to write a letter stating that you are indeed Transexual and you have already started RLT or some other prerequisite....  You mail it off, they call the therapist plus they have to be in some directory they have createtd???

then you get a little card in the mail saying you have been recgonized to use the womans or mens restroom.

then you have legal rights allowing you to use those rooms. And only if a therapist says so, on top of that I do not think that once one applies for the recgonition they should be allowed to use the biological restroom, its like a switch not a thing so you can choose what room to use.

I mean this wouldnt take millions and millions of dollars, this could be done for the price of one guys salary, plus the cost to rent a gov office, plus cost of cards, plus cost of paperwork, postage, OH and the intial legal fees to get it written, drafted, passed, ect...

[Alison]

the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
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Wow... I'm going to be crossing my legs for a LONG ass time then because I almost NEVER see "neutral" bathrooms.... in say restaurants, stores, work places etc..  So until there is a "neutral bathroom" everywhere, deal with it.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with ME using YOUR bathroom anyway?

[Caroline]

the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
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Wow... I'm going to be crossing my legs for a LONG ass time then because I almost NEVER see "neutral" bathrooms.... in say restaurants, stores, work places etc..  So until there is a "neutral bathroom" everywhere, deal with it.

Why do you feel uncomfortable with ME using YOUR bathroom anyway?

Because the fact that you have thought about the nature of gender and don't consider yourself covered by a limiting binary system surely overrides the fact that you have a UTERUS and vagina rather than a penis.  A self diagnosed m2f surely has more right than you to use the women's loos!

[Keira]

Well, Alison, there are plenty of gender neutral, family room, handicaped
accessible, restrooms around here. Its not some kind of pipe dream.

What I hear from the restroom brigade is no respect for the
GG's feeling and thus why should they respect you!

As I said, which nobody read obviously, is that a middle ground
exists that can respond to everybody's needs. That's the only
one that realistically will allow all CD's and really ambiguous
gendered people or those who think gender means crap
total access and respect the majority
gosh darned binary people who feel gender means something.

[Rachael]

um, your a so alison? where did i even START to beef on you?
IF someone doesnt see themselves as male or female, dont use those rooms... a lot of places have unisex loos... ie, a stall with a wash basin etc....
Alison, do you idnetify as other than female? if so, use what you find apropriate, gender deconstruction isnt some excuse to use any bloody room you like when you feel like a change....

and andra: firstly, im not self diagnoised, OR technically m2f transsexual, so maybe back off?
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[Alison]

I am a SO, Andra is my partner as well as JC...

I am also a non binary identifying person.  I have a female body but I am -not- female.  Rachael so eloquently said that "women's facilities are for women only".. And frankly this puts me in a really difficult situation, as The walmart I go to, the grocery store I go to, many restaurants I go to ... NONE of them have a "family" restroom, not a single one.  *I* don't mind using the ladies room, so frankly if it bugs you, too bad.

And Rachael you say over and over and -over- again ad nauseum that the waiting list for the NHS in your area is several miles long, and you've said over and over again that you can't see a therapist for some 6 years.  That puts you at self diagnosed.

[NicholeW.]

In a very real way ALL TSes and most TGs are 'self-diagnosed.' We relate our stories to therapists and doctors who then attempt to determine whether or not what we tell them is a 'pack of lies' or the meanderings of a delusional mind.

I personally cannot imagine claiming the title of TS, for even a short period of time on the way to claiming F or M, if someone doesn't have the 'real' history associated with GID. But some do, Alan Finch who we recently discussed here being just one.

The therapists or doctors then confirm that we aren't delsuional and attach the 'diagnosis' to us. There is currently no genetic test available to determine 'scientifically' whether or not we are TS. It is all hearsay in that they hear us say we are and then conclude that we are not delusional and are TS.

But, yes, Rach, much as I hate to tread here, Allison and Andra are 'right' insofar as they say that we are all 'self-diagnosed.' At least until there is a 'real-life test' that proves conclusively that we are who we say we are.

The term is not necessarily insulting although as it was used it might well be seen that way.

Can we all, please, go back to not calling each other out?

Thanks so much.

BTW, from my experience Alison is also right about bathrooms. Not many unisex or family bathrooms here on the east coast of USA. I don't wanna have to cross my legs and drive to Montreal if I have to pee away from home. *smile* I cannot imagine Alison or anyone else doing it either.

Nichole

[Keira]

Nichole,
I was arguing with Alison's stance
that seems to say that gender neutral
rooms are a pipe dream and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms.

As I said, in the case of most CD's, the issue
is not defensible. They are men who IDENTIFY as MEN
most are hetero, why on earth would any women
tolerate them in there.

For a good portion of TS's,
you can get a carry letter if you go to a therapist and that's enough.
The issue in this case would be GID sufferers outside
the medical system who don't carry such letters.
I agree they need to pee too. And again, fighting
for their access will be much harder than putting
our hat in the ring and pushing for gender neutral
or family rooms.

Androgyne's will go in their assigned birth sex restroom
since for them, its either. So, no issue.

Are you sure about gender neutral bathroom Nichole.
I've been in many malls on the east coast and they
do have family/handicaped restrooms right off the
corridor. Maybe people feel weird about using a
restroom marked for handicaped, but they are
rarely used and if someone needs to use them,
you'd be out soon anyway.

[Jordan]

Keira,

I agree with alot of what you just said, but my main problem is with the unisex rooms,  I checked everywhere I went today, and I didnt see any, I mean I know they have em at malls and stuff, and larger places, but even then in the mall by my house they are terabbly out of the way.  but what about when your at Mcdonalds, or walmart, or like normal places that dont afford to throw down on a gender nuetral pee hole, (scuse my launguage),

I dunno, Im cool with just using the womans bathroom, if I get booted I'll just play dumb and say I had no idea, and go to the next place.

I still think we should be able to get gov issued cards that say we can legally use the room though. (see above mara post)

[Keira]

I agree Mara,
the problem is what standards do you use to get that card.
Right now, its being diagnosticated as TS,
which needs therapy and such things,
which takes money that some people don't have.

Even McDonalds and small restaurants have those one stall things
with a sink, around here. I think new restaurants will have them,
it actually saves space compared to normal restrooms.

[Jordan]

I see, but I guess what I would say is if you are TS and cannot afford theraphy or the prereqs to get the card, at least there are some of us who can and will get ID registered pee'er cards, and overall that should help people leave you alone more knowing that such a thing exists, I mean there not gonna stop everybody to check thier cards, and most likely if they caught someone without a card, the same as what goes on today where most likely you will just get booted, wont be such a big deal.

It will al least help the community idea that we should be granted access freely, if we have followed legally identifiable criteria.

I mean alot of TS people who have been RLT in so many words for 20 plus years but are still legally male, could seriosly benifit from such a thing, especially based on the fact that not all are passable.

I have found that woman have alot easier of time understanding that we are woman mentally.

Also it is my inate belief that woman are smart creatures so FTM will be inheritantly good at pulling off going to the mens restroom without a card.

Overall I think it will do us good to have such a thing.

[Rachael]

I am a SO, Andra is my partner as well as JC...

I am also a non binary identifying person.  I have a female body but I am -not- female.  Rachael so eloquently said that "women's facilities are for women only".. And frankly this puts me in a really difficult situation, as The walmart I go to, the grocery store I go to, many restaurants I go to ... NONE of them have a "family" restroom, not a single one.  *I* don't mind using the ladies room, so frankly if it bugs you, too bad.

And Rachael you say over and over and -over- again ad nauseum that the waiting list for the NHS in your area is several miles long, and you've said over and over again that you can't see a therapist for some 6 years.  That puts you at self diagnosed.

mention it when the subject comes up, yeah, ad nausium? possibly not, internet relationship with andra? because i can see a bit wet divider....
it puts my GID as self diagnosed?, lets not forget, i did get a initial diagnosis of GID... and was refered to the gic for TREATMENT. so oh, not self diganosted.  But not the fact that im an intersexed girl, whos being allowed to transition to female, because they made a mistake.... somehow, GID nolonger matters...

Im hatimtoom haya tippa, ata hayita okianoos! haha
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[Jordan]

racheal would (you) say that you believe that intersexed individuals do not have GID, that GID is more related to biological X's with no intersexed history?

Or is it possible that intersex individuals have GID towards a specific gender?

(YOU) sorry forgot to put the word you , my bad racheal not trying to put words in your mouth just ask a question. LOL

[Keira]

I think you can be IS an have GID, if they assigned a gender
different than the one your brain is inclined too, sure it can happen.

If by chance they assigned you the right way, well thank your lucky star!

That's the problem with thinking sex and gender are linked,
they see a penis and bam, that IS is male regarless if
the factors that influenced the ambiguous phenotype (body)
has also influenced the brain.

Rachael, even if your male and they diagnosed you IS, doesn't
mean you wouldn't want to still be male. It could have gone
either way. That's why I think IS are in the same boat as
TS in general.

Though, the medical community may make it easier for IS
to make that choice because they actually have proof
of some genetic messup, and not just the say so of
someone.

[Rachael]

it was the sayso of someone that mutilated my genetals when i was a baby... sure, most is people are happy, and they got it right... my gid has a known base however, transsexuallity will be treated the same way when they find its cause.... and can say, yes, this person is whichever sex...

i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!!
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