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My Interpretation of Why Jesus was sent to Die on earth....

Started by maragirlygirr, February 09, 2008, 06:41:05 AM

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Suzy

Quote from: mara on February 11, 2008, 08:01:23 AM
Cindy you say "Hey, I didn't say that it made sense.  That's the doctrine that they have given us"  thats the last thing I want to hear here, I have heard nothing but pretense for 18 years of my life, I need opinions from true followers that stand up to reason and rationale.

Well I guess this is one place I part company with my dear friend Cindi.  Theology, by nature, is often defined as faith seeking understanding.  That's why I am always excited to see people asking good questions.  I appreciate it when I see a person who really wants to search.  I asked LOTS of questions at one point in my life and am still asking today.  I only don't appreciate it when a question is asked which is actually a thinly veiled personal attack.  I've been guilty of it in the past, too, but I hope to have grown past that.

I do believe Christianity makes perfect logical sense.  In fact, for me, it was the only theological system that did.  And I say that after much examination and study.  I don't agree with those who imply that Christianity, and especially the doctrine of the resurrection are for the intellectually inferior.  I can elaborate but only if you want more.  I don't want this to get too long.

Kristi
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Ell

Quote from: beth06 on February 10, 2008, 11:47:43 PM
im all good too. no hard feelings at all.. and ell.. i think you are awesome.  you too mara ... much love ^-^

Thank you beth06.  :)
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Jordan

Kristi and everybody,

Yep I am just at that point in my life, asking a ton of questions stage, I want to know everything there is to know about the subject, I will scrutinize, and logically break it all down, but the fact of the matter that I see Christianity as the only theological reality that could be...

we all have our own opinions though...

thanks for helping to answer all these questions...
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cindianna_jones

Kristi,

I often will get accused by my family that I think that they "are stupid" (their words not mine) because of their beliefs.  Nothing can be further from the truth.  A belief by definition may or may not have logic behind it.  Logic is not the end all in this existence.  And there are few answers for everything we face in life.

I don't think that I have actually ever "denied" the Christian faith.  I try very hard to make my thinking to not appear as Christian bashing.  For I wish to do neither.  I cherish the faith of my friends and value their prayers and thoughtfulness.

But there are many things in the various religions that no one has ever been able to explain to me.  While I can take many things on faith alone, there are a number of things that are difficult.  Believe me, I tried for many years.  I decided to study the doctrine, learn what I could, and just accept that there are many things that do not hold viable answers for me.  That's not to say they can not be a viable source of comfort for someone else.

Cindi
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Suzy

Cindi,

You, of all people, have always demonstrated the utmost of respect for everyone, even if you differ in faith with them.  It is one of the things I appreciate so much about you.  With your background, I find this amazing.  I can't imagine your family having reason to think you treat them as stupid.  We both know enough of each other's history to know that we have both been involved in a protracted study of this issue for many years and have been much more intense in our efforts than the average person.  There are many questions I hold more deeply than ever, and other doctrines I have changed through the years.  I see no problem in that.  As I said, I delight to see good questions when someone is truly asking.  I am only irritated by misrepresentation of the facts presented in some kind of authoritarian wrapper.

I agree that logic is not the end all and be all.  But I've never been afraid of it, and never plan to be.

Kristi
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Jordan

Wow! Cindi, your family sees you the same way mine does.

They think that because I have such a intense desire to question everything and challenge their faith, that I think they are stupid.

Quite the oppisite is true, I am amazed by them and want to know everything there is to know about faith.

I however hard a hard time keeping humble in my challenges, but it is easier when done in writing, and I am very excited to have realized susans.org had a Christain section, (I just found it a few days ago)

So thanks for bearing with my ignorant grunts about the faith, I am just trying to wrap my head around concepts... :angel:
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cindianna_jones

Mara,

The best way to learn about it is to go to the source.  Bible study won't hurt you.  I think it also important to study the history surrounding the Bible and its people as well.  It will give you tremendous insight and help you to understand why they did some things as they did as chronicled in the scriptures.

Come to your own opinions.  Don't let anyone tell you what something means.  Ask questions and decide for yourself.

Cindi
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Jordan

Dont care much for the "bible" or the many books that make up the bible....

Its too disputable, and I cant see how one says its possible to base the christan religion off of it.

More meant in my opinion as authors writing about the religion not as GOD writing through them, or more precisely as Ashley put in section #6 in her first major response to me.

I think I would get kicked out quicker than mercury on a glass table... I'm hoping you guys can bear with my rebel, menical meanderings

_______________________________________________________________________________________
Also I would like to address something I cant understand.

In the Bible, Jesus walks into the temple and sees goats, animals, ect things that furthered the sale of things in the temple, right?
He becomes pissed off and throws them out, angered he says the temple is holy and not meant for profit.

Well i went to church for 18 years, and every church i have ever been too has a bookstore, vending machines, ATM machine???
This disgusts me severly, How can they claim good faith, when there IS A ATM machine or Coca Cola being sold within the church???
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cindianna_jones

Mara,

In your example, the money changers in the temple were there making money for personal gain.  The money collection in your chapel most likely goes to fund the church does it not?

And whatever happened to the goats, sheep, and chickens?  ;)

Cindi
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Jordan

Specifically the Books that the preachers write go to thier personal benefit, so that they can drive porches, live in a million dollar home, ect

Also vending machine companies love churches, they make the profit from the machines and in turn the machine is able to offer its clientelle beverages...

ATM's offer the ability for memebers to withdraw cash to donate, with the bank or service provider profiting from the $1.95 withdraw fee.
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David W. Shelton

Mara,

To be fair, most pastors, even if they do write books, are barely making it as they try to support their families. Please don't lump the entire group of those in ministry with the all-too-visible 'mega-evangelists' who have given them a sour name.

While it's true that megachurches are becoming popular, they are NOT the norm. It's easy to criticize churches for looking for ways to pay their bills, but it's far more important to look and see what those churches are doing in the community. Your perceptions might... just might... be a little off, or even discolored by how "Christians" have treated GLBT people.

God knows we've all been hit with fingers in our face, or given the "left foot of fellowship." In the end, though, our spiritual walk remains. Those of us who ARE Christians understand the work that good churches do in the community, and are quick to help when we can.

Those who have written books (myself included) often view it as a way to get the message out there. Yes, it helps to pad our income... but the reality is that most small churches have pastors who are not paid at all.

In all honesty, you get what you look for. If you think you'd get kicked out quickly, maybe that's because it's what you expect. But if you find a GLBT-affirming church, you'll find just how welcoming they can be.

Thanks to everyone to a great response to this thread! Keep it up!
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Jordan

David I have been waiting for you...

Specifically on this issue, my interpretation of it is simple, you can write as many books, ect things as you please, but Jesus's rule was simple keep it out of the church...

Also you are right my view is very tainted by the Mega Churches, that is all I was a part of for 18, My Mother was deeply involved in a couple of these orginzations and I saw some of the most "Prominent" Christain "Leaders" through out my life, just to later google them, and see that in fact they spread messages of hate...

But thank you for your rersponse, and yes I know that there are GLBT accepting churches out there, but then again you see from time to time, articles like the one posted in the new section yesterday here, How Evangelicals Take On GLBT, or articles about Focus on the Family, and to be honest 90% of the orginations at least take their views.

But that was not the point of this thread, I am trying to seek answers regarding the christain faith, I have many questions to ask.
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Suzy

Mara,

I quite agree with your criticisms of some churches.  But like David says, please do not lump all of the churches together with the few that seem to get all of the spotlight.  I've never been part of a megachurch and never plan to be for many of the reasons you have named.  I do write an publish music, but the profits from that are quite small.  And in our church, we do not do credit cards or ATMs or have a book store.  Occasionally we do have a project we need to fund and do fund raisers specifically for it.  But I also know that the pastor is a long way from living in a million dollar home or driving a fancy car.  Oh, and we are an extremely accepting mid-size congregation that has a Coke Machine.  We keep the price at break even, so we make no money off of it.  We find that lots of people come through our door to get a drink for that reason.

Kristi
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David W. Shelton

Quote from: mara on February 13, 2008, 09:07:22 AM
David I have been waiting for you...
Sorry about that! I've been incredibly busy lately... Bad David... Bad David...

Posted on: February 13, 2008, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: mara on February 13, 2008, 09:07:22 AM
Specifically on this issue, my interpretation of it is simple, you can write as many books, ect things as you please, but Jesus's rule was simple keep it out of the church...
The Apostle Paul also said that the worker is worthy of his hire, and that was in reference to ministry. But you're right. Christ overturned the tables in the temple because of the vast amount of abuse that was going on then. We would sometimes sell cassette tapes of sermons, but we kept the price down to $1 which paid for supplies only, and broke even. It worked out great. We probably gave out as many tapes as we sold, so it's far from money-handling. Then, with the advent of MP3 format, sermons can be provided free of charge by most churches, which is win-win for everyone.
QuoteAlso you are right my view is very tainted by the Mega Churches, that is all I was a part of for 18, My Mother was deeply involved in a couple of these orginzations and I saw some of the most "Prominent" Christain "Leaders" through out my life, just to later google them, and see that in fact they spread messages of hate...
You're absolutely right. With organizations like Focus on the Family and other highly visible windbags like Rod Parsley, it's plainly evident that the vast majority of high-profile preachers and "leaders" are very vocal in their verbal violence toward the GLBT community. This is unfortunate, and it's also why I don't watch TBN. I grieve every time I hear hatred preached in the name of a loving God. Then, I get angry because these busybodies do all they can to squelch equality. It's anything BUT Christian behavior, in my opinion.
QuoteBut thank you for your rersponse, and yes I know that there are GLBT accepting churches out there, but then again you see from time to time, articles like the one posted in the new section yesterday here, How Evangelicals Take On GLBT, or articles about Focus on the Family, and to be honest 90% of the orginations at least take their views.

But that was not the point of this thread, I am trying to seek answers regarding the christain faith, I have many questions to ask.
And there are 10% who don't. Find the ones who don't, and I submit that you'll find a true message of Christ. Keep pressing on!
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cindianna_jones

I've probably told some of you that I am indeed a pastor.  Believe it or not.  I am not paid nor do I ask for donations.  But I don't have a real active ministry either.  We only get together once a month out in the trees..... and it is a very small group.  We are also non demonitational in the truest sense.

Back in the early days of Christ, he did not require money to do what he did.  These days money is a necessary evil.  You need some to pay for the buildings, utilities, and something for those who work full time in the ministry.  Very few ministers can get by without some money.  That's the reality.  Back when I was active with the MCC in Salt Lake City, the poor pastor worked a full time job in the real world and could barely keep the church going through donations.  It was tough for him and I admired his tenacity for the wonderful work that he did.

I have no problem with people writing books.  In many cases, they can be a source of inspiration and understanding.  As an author myself, I can assure you that most books do not create a livable income.  For most cases, the publishing world is built to favor the publishers, not the authors.

There are however volumes produced which are not filled with the message of love.  You'll recognize them when you read them.  Messages filled with hate, guilt mongering, and a lack of understanding for todays problems are very easy to spot.

So Mara, what's your next question?

Cindi
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tekla

I've seen many people of good faith do many good works, and as the Bible tells us, Sometimes the Devil comes as a man of peace.  But the solution is in there too - By their fruits will you know them.  Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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jamesBrine

wow, its probably been months since I made a reply. Generally I find this section to be most enjoyable. I have loved many of the responses, Kristi with the parable, the kind words reconciliation, and articulate answers to difficult questions. Much like others, I would like to offer new thought regard the death of Jesus. It has been much talk surronding the death and little about the ressurection. I think the idea of the ressurection was mentioned by Kristi, but I felt important to discuss the ressurection and in turn may give more insight into why he died, and more importantly what it accomplished.
I know it was asked that the one responding give their views. In a few breif words i'll attempt. Throughout the Gospel of Matthew Jesus alludes and speaks of his death and ressurection as something that was going to happen. If it was to happen, what was it to accomplish? I think a few things: 1) display of radical love (great comment Kristi), 2) a conquering of death, 3) a future hope
Since point one has already been answered I will skip to point two. Throughout the gospel of Matthew (I speak from Matthew because I know it the best) Jesus claims to be the son of God. His miracles (and some parables) point to this claim. Jesus is seen as conquering nature (calming of the storm), sickness (healings of the paralytic), demons (legion), death of others (bringing back the life of the daughter). Jesus has shown his power over the world except in conquering his own death. In the ressurection, death had lost, it could not control Jesus. So what now for us. Through the coming of the spirit, brought about by his death, we are given new life in Jesus. The ressurection gives us new life.
3) gives us hope. this ties in closely with the second answer. Paul the Apostle talks about the uselessness of Jesus's death without the ressurection. Just as Jesus rose so to will his followers (others aswell, but this is a different issue). Death is no longer the end, it has been defeated by the radical love of Jesus.
I know this is a relativily sloppy answer. All my sources are currently away. If you have any questions I would love to offer an idea. next time I'll use some sources.
       James
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Jordan

You know what everyone? I am gonna give God another go, Im gonna go to church next Sunday...

That most likely isnt gonna go over real well with my Girlfriend but Im gonna do it, It would be interesting to see what they make of me..

Hope I wont get kicked out. haha
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Ms Jessica

Interesting thread.  Despite being a newbie, I'll throw in my two cents (it is Lent after all, and I can spend a little time on this). 

Here's my take on the questions:
First, why did Christ die?  Or what was accomplished by His death? 
Cindi said it right on the first page-- He died for the sins of the world?  The follow up question is how?  How does Christ's death atone for our sins?

St Paul's Epistle to the Romans says "The wages of sin is death".  This is commonly interpreted to mean that you deserve death as punishment for your sin.  I don't know that I really buy into this concept, at least not completely.  Jesus says in John's gospel that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."  This concept of sin as both task and taskmaster is more to the heart of the matter, or so I think.  That's why I say I don't buy into the concept of death as punishment for sin, at least not completely.  There's more to it. 
Here's a quote from one of my favorite blogs (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/):
"That neatly encapsulates one of the major themes in Paul's epistles: the idea that sin becomes both employment and employer, both task and task-master. Odds are, though, if you're listening to someone presenting the Romans Road, that's not what they'll tell you. They will tell you, contra-Paul in this very passage, that your sin makes you deserving of death and that it is God, not sin, who will pay you this deadly wage."

Christ accepts this payment on your behalf.  He dies in your place.  In my place.  Not because God wants to punish you, and will punish His own Son in our place.  Christ dies because that is the nature of sin. 
I'm sure there's additional room in this for discussion of the "bread of life" passages from John's gospel.  I think those fit nicely in with this concept of how Christ's death atones for our sins.  Ultimately, there is no actual answer.  Or at least there's no answer key for the question.  The Church itself gets to this point and describes our salvation as a mystery.  I sort of like that.  I'm okay with not know or understanding every little detail.  If you're familiar with Catholic beliefs, we believe that Christ is really present in the Eucharistic elements (bread and wine).  When I take a wafer from the priest, it still tastes like a cracker, but that doesn't mean that it's just a cracker.  You can get a lot of info on this topic from writers like CS Lewis and also Thomas Aquinas.    I'll avoid quoting extensively in the interest of keeping the post short. 

A few final passages from John's gospel about Christ's death—
From the 12th chapter: "Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."
From earlier in chapter 12: "Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit."


So, I hope that at least gives us somewhere to start talking more about the first question.  The second set of questions it seems you were asking dealt with why churches have bookstores, vending machines, ATMs.  Isn't that contradicting the whole "my house should be a house of prayer"? 

When I was a kid, my parents attended Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa.  It was sort of the original mega-church (or at least it preceded all the other mega-churches that I know of in Southern California).  There was a bookstore there that sold books written by the pastor.  The books were sort of an extension of the pastor's ministry (as David said in quoting St. Paul "the worker is worthy of his hire").  The bookstore also sold tons of other books—Bible commentaries, dictionaries, that kind of stuff.  The bookstore also had a tape lending library.  You could get sermons on tape if you missed a week.  These were necessary functions at the time because you couldn't get these services from anywhere else.  There was no such thing as Barnes and Noble, no Amazon.com, and not many places would custom order a book for you.  You were basically out of luck if you wanted Bible commentaries and didn't have a church bookstore that was able to get things like that for you.  That was my experience, anyway. 

Things have changed significantly since then.  And not for the better.  I used to patronize church (and burgeoning Christian bookstores) for necessities like Concordances until I noticed something very troubling.  Go into any Christian bookstore now and you'll find "The Purpose Driven Life" and the companion diary, prayer journal, meditational devotional and paper dolls.  The fiction section is amok with "Left Behind" and its sequels, prequels, spin-offs and other sins against mankind.  The section of Christian Classics used to be stocked with things like "The Pilgrim's Progress" or something like that.  Pretty much all you can find now is something by CS Lewis.  I like CS Lewis, but there's more to the historical writings of the church than CS Lewis.  You will find absolutely nothing by any of the church doctors.  You might find a copy of St. Augustine's "Confessions".  A good book.  But certainly not the alpha-omega of all the Church's literature.  Ask an employee to order you something and you'll get blank stares.  The very sad thing is that the Christianity sections at stores like Borders or Barnes and Noble are actually better than an entire Christian bookstore.  You can find writings by authors of the early church, including some of the Christian mystics.  Very interesting stuff, that. 

I'm not saying that all church bookstores have lost their charted course, but it certainly seems to me that many of them are missing out on their once useful purpose.  But part of the problem is with the modern consumer.  They aren't interested in looking to the historical church for information, but would rather work through one of the dozens of iterations of "The Purpose Driven Life" or some such. 
In this sense, Mara, I agree with you completely.  Some churches have missed out on the purpose of having a bookstore.  It's moved from being a useful service to becoming a commodity, something to earn money. 


I'm going to wrap up here.  First, I'm terribly sorry about writing for so long.  You've just happened to bring up two issues that are very dear to me.  The death of Christ is something I can't resist talking about because I just enjoy talking about it.  I hope I've done more than just some sermonizing.  Church bookstores are just one of those things that gets my goat.  Especially when it's Lent and I'm looking for good books to read.  I've been able to pick up "Dark Night of the Soul" by John of the Cross, at Barnes and Noble, but I'm always so let down by the poor selection at most Christian stores. 

The last thing I want to say is an advance apology to anyone I may have inadvertently offended.  I am not trying to belittle anyone's love or appreciation of the "Left Behind" series.  I use that as a common example of some of the problems in the "Christian marketplace" because it really has spawned a franchise of its own (along with the Purpose Driven series).  These get picked on by virtue of their popularity and ubiquity.  So, sorry if I ticked anyone off.  It wasn't deliberate, I was just trying to point out that so many Christian stores don't even stock literary works of the early Church, let alone know of their existence.  It is a horrible oversight. 
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lisagurl

In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.
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