RLT - Is it a reasonable safe guard or a needless obsticle?

[stephanie_craxford]

In a reply to her poll on Free SRS, Annie Social raised a very good topic for another poll.  So what do you think?  Reasonable or needless?

Great idea Annie:)

Steph

[Dennis]

I think it depends on the original gender. I would say for FtM's particularly, it's a needless obstacle. Testosterone makes such huge changes in your presentation and voice that without it, it's near impossible to pass unless you're very young.

Perhaps it makes more sense for MtF's because the physical and voice effects of estrogen aren't as dramatic and there is a need to really work at presentation in addition to hormones.

Dennis

[Sarah Louise]

I'd probably answer that differently each day of the week.

Seeing as I used to hate Therapists, I would have said it was just a way for them to control us and make money off of us.

Having gotten a good therapist, I have softened my viewpoint.  I think it is important to be cautious, but, we should still have our free will.

I think we need another option somewhere in the middle.  I can't give a yes or no answer.

Sarah

[Melissa]

Oh boy.  I was just thinking about this topic a few days ago, or at least a related one.  Let's just call it SOC vs. IRS. 

The SOC requires a transsexual to go through costly hormones, therapy, electrolysis and 1 year RLT before you are even allowed to have SRS. 

The IRS says that SRS is "just cosmetic" and because of this, they won't allow a deduction.

The irony in this is that if it were not for all the expensive requirements for SRS that you have with NO OTHER "cosmetic" procedure, needing a tax deduction wouldn't be as big of a deal.

You could argue that without all those requirements, one could not live as effectively as a woman.  However, there are certain individuals (not me) who would like SRS because of genital disgust, but choose to live life as a male. A person who does not go through through RLT may make a bad choice to have SRS and regret their decision.  However, there is such a thing as personal responsibility.  If a person choose to have too many facelifts, they can be stuck with an "ugly face".  However, that is their own choice.

How many transsexuals are there who had genital disgust and could not bear to wait the required amount of time or jump through all the required hoops and ended up killing themselves?  How many people went through all the hoops and regretted thier SRS decision.  I bet the number of the first group is much larger than the second. I think RLT should be an optional albeit recommended part of the SOC.

Melissa

[Annie Social]

Thanks again, Stephanie!

Dennis, a question: Are you saying that a real life test is required before testosterone is made available? I've never heard of that; I've only heard of a RLT being a prerequisite to surgery.

Melissa, I pretty much agree with you. There have to be some sort of sfeguards; god knows there are enough crazies in the world to really make a mess of things if SRS were available on demand. But I'm not wild about the idea of 'therapist-as-gatekeeper' either; there shouldn't be any sort of an adversarial relationship between a therapist and patient, and that's exactly what is made possible by the current system.

I'm not sure what the answer is; there may not even be an answer that is equitable to all and effective at the same time.

[Dennis]

Annie, it's one of the recommendations of the HBSOC, RLT or three months' therapy. That's because of the huge changes you get with testosterone, many of which are irreversible.

It's fairly relaxed in practice, though, because of the difficulty passing without testosterone. Most will only require certification by a qualified therapist. Originally, before it was relaxed, I believe that a year's RLT was required. And I have heard of some treating professionals requiring it.

Dennis

[Teri Anne]

Being a Libertarian (but not in all things), I would prefer it if therapy was not required for SRS.  As Melissa points out, therapy isn't required for crazies to have multiple face jobs (like Michael Jackson).  I've always thought that, if I wanted to go in and buy Propecia by the tubfull, I should be allowed to do it.  Instead, we have two things:  (1) doctors we have to go to to get the prescription and (2) well-paid pharmacists who dole out the pills to me at inflated prices.  Am I really going to want to overdose on Propecia?  Even worse is my allergy pill, Singulair.  The system is based on the idea that we're all stupid and would overdose.  I could overdose on Drano or paint thinner but I don't notice anyone being a "gate keeper" to a lot of household items.  Unlike a lot of people, I would go to my doc and tell him what I'm thinking of taking and ask his advice.  If he said, "No, that would be dangerous," that'd be the end of it.  If I took a drug, I would expect him to monitor whatever might go wrong.  We would, in essense, work WITH each other for my own good.  Some would not be as cautious as me, I suppose, and for that reason, there are the gate keepers for pills...and SRS's.

Libertarians place the responsibility of things on the INDIVIDUAL.  Of course, in our "I'm a victim" society, it's hard for any business to exist if people are suing it because of the individual's bad decision.  And so we come to the REAL reason for therapy - SRS doc's presumably like it because it shifts the blame from them to the therapists.  The odd thing about this thinking is that I haven't heard of many (or any?) therapists being sued because they "green-lighted" an SRS.

I guess it's fortunate that tests, therapy, and drugs weren't required for my craneo-fascial surgery with Dr. O.  But after all, he was just messing around with something EVERYONE SEES - my face - as opposed to something no one sees (because it's hidden under my clothes).  And, to reiterate the point of one of my posts, contrary to popular notions, I COULD go back to living as a man if I wanted -- some "top" surgery and, essentially, I'd be there.  So my bottom isn't perfect as a man?  So what? 

Yes, I would have loved to have skipped the gate-keeper therapists (tho mine was nice, too).  If others want therapists, I certainly wouldn't discourage it (it should be optional) but, for me, I knew what I wanted and I'M THERE.  But there's a lack of personal responsibility in our society so I readily understand why the system is as it is.

Teri Anne

[mariska]

I think you have to get some experience tot be sure your choises are real.
So some kind of Real Life Experience you should allow yourself but putting it as a Real Life Test before the genderteam allows you to get SRS is to much of an obstacle I think.

For instance I did my research before I went to a genderteam and in the experiences I made sofar I am sure that I have made the right desicions. So for me the Real Life Test will be an unneccesarry obstacle due to the time involveld.
The testing before you get your hormone therapy is much more an adviseble obstacle. However it will take me half a year before I can start my HRT and I wished it could been started half a yaer ago.

next april 13 I will have to make my test battery at the genderteam.

Greatings to you all,   Mariska

[Melissa]

I did a little RLE before I started hormones.  I did it as kind of practice and had no problems.  It was actually a little more forgiving than I had expected.  You don't need to act like a "perfect" woman (whatever that is) to pass.  Either I was not clocked or nobody cared.  Either way, I can only look and act better than I did back then.  One other note, transition should not just be about becoming a woman.  It is more about becoming yourself.  I'm not going to try and be a "perfect" woman, I'm just going to be me.

Melissa

[Teri Anne]

Steph,
I think I may, in rereading my previous post, have gotten sidetracked from the main query of your post.  I addressed therapy and drugs when, in actuality, your question in starting the post, was whether RLT was "a reasonable safeguard or a needless obstacle?"  I feel RLT is indeed necessary -- the hardest problem TS's will face will be how spouses, relatives, friends and society will react towards us in transition.  If you only present yourself as your "true self" when away from people who know you, you are getting an invalid test as to how you're going to get along in your PRESENT world.  If your aim is to move away from everyone you know, I suppose less time (than 1 year) would be needed for you to gauge how you "pass." 

Of course, one of my theories/worries is that some TS's enter into transition thinking that it's gonna be exciting and fun to dress as a female.  I truly believe that even the die-hard TS's of that persuasion will get bored over time with dressing female.  Like I've said in other posts, a new car is a NEW CAR!  But an old car is just transportation.  So, in a sense, the longer the RLT, the longer you have as a test on your own PERSONAL SATISFACTION with why you feel you need to transition.  In the end, YOU have to be happy with your decision, not the "gate-keepers."  In my own situation it was a "reasonable safeguard" for my own happiness.

Teri Anne

[Leigh]

If a person needs to transition they will regardless of any barriers.

If a person is rejected by a therapist they'll just refine their story for the next one.

Personal responsibility!

Leigh

[Terri-Gene]

hahahahahahaa, now I know  I'm coming apart.  RLT, is it reasonable or a waste of time?  Well, I guess all I got to do is determine what exactly it is I'm trying to accomplish so I'll get some small clue as to what this whole pointless process is all about.

With no bit of experience or brains I'll have to assume that at some point one will have to try "Passing" as a female and will spend more and more time femmed out to convince people they are the other sex.  At least it would seem to be the type of thing one would do .......

and regarding how to handle the social observations of some of the observers, well, there is always the fact that thier eyes arn't all that good past a few feet and who the hell knows about thier hands.  Personally I don't have a lot of trust in the eyes, ears and touch of most of those hind legged types trouping around out thier.  If they think they see hear or feel something then it has to be real, right?

anyway, would seem to me that the closer to being a real ideal opposite core individual you are the more you will be spending time looking as much as possible like one.

Yeah, I believe in finding all the answers to any brain dead hunk of lunk that sees you perfectly as what you claim you aint,  we can't all be brain dead ya know, after all this is the 21st centry.

Terri

[Cassandra]

I think that RLT is a reasonable safeguard. If you can't live your life as the gender you know or believe yourself to be, regardless of physical deformity then what do you think will be accomplished by SRS. It is a litmus test which is more important to yourself rather than the gatekeepers. If you cheat than you are only cheating yourself and yourself is what it is all about. To be sure some may cheat and litigate later, that is why we have the gatekeepers, to insure that litigation can be turned away because the people we depend on to complete our transition are protected and so available for others to transition. Despite the inconvenience it may impose on our wants and desires, we have been there, and have a responsibility to insure the future availability of this process to those who come after us. Just my two cents.

Cass

[Leigh]

I don't standunder.

Why should I/we/someone pay for permission?

Or are we simply a cash cow?

Leigh

[Dennis]

I agree to some extent, Cass, but again, I think you're only looking at the MtF view. From the FtM point of view, you're simply not going to pass without T unless you are young and also look masculine. At my age, it wasn't going to work and my career would have been threatened.

I also got chest surgery before I started living as male because of the same thing. It wasn't going to work without extremely uncomfortable binding and I couldn't function at work with my tits strapped down like caged birds.

As far as bottom surgery for FtM's, well most of us don't go for it, and those who do, don't go for it until the dysphoria hits an absolute peak even with living as male full time.

Also, there aren't psychological disorders (that I know of, although it may become more prevalent with the growing public awareness of FtM's) that mask as FtM. There are some that mask as MtF.

In short, I have not heard of a single case of regret from someone who's started the FtM process. I have heard of cases of regret from people who've gone through the MtF process, and RLT has not exposed those cases. On the other hand, RLT may have prevented more cases of regret than we do see and those who get through RLT masking a psychological disorder are the rarity.

I think the guidelines were developed with MtF's in mind and were later adapted to FtM's and the fit is not very good.

Dennis

[stephanie_craxford]

Personally I believe that the RLT is a "Reasonable" safe guard for the reasons the SOC intend it to be.  Before I started my own RLT I was of two minds on this and still am for that matter.  On the one side there is that part of me that says "Who the hell are they" to tell me what is, and what is not best for me, and then on the other hand there is the need to ensure that I am not making a big mistake that I do in fact know what I'm doing.  We face tests all our lives and while we all think that we know much, tests have a way of reavealing those things we don't know.  For example driving tests to get our license so that we don't endanger ourselves or others to mention just one.  But it still gets my back up to think that I am applying for a job as a woman, here are my credentials and qualifications an here are my "Test" results...  May be it's that word "Test".

My RLT has been worth every moment, I have not seen it as a test but as a confirmation to myself and others (not that I care about others) that I am the woman I know I am.  And I believe that it is a good method of weeding out those who think it would be "neat" to be a woman, those who would like to "try it out", those who think they can "pull it off", the wanabees etc...

I would recommend that those who venture on this road read the SOC thoroughly as you may be surprised at what is contained in them and what the Standards recommend.  Jumping through hoops, barriers, hurdles, keepers of the gate...  In the words of a famous military leader "Nuts".

Steph

[Annie Social]

Dennis, I agree with you if we're talking about a real life test before being allowed hormones, especially in the case of FtMs. All of us, MtF or FtM,  need the all the advantages we can get before living full-time.

For bottom surgery, though, I don't have a problem with the RLT prerequisite; in that case, I agree with Cass. In a society in which SRS was available on demand, it would quickly become unavailable as lawsuits by people unwilling to take responsibility for their actions would drive insurance coverage for the doctors who perform it to unaffordable levels.

[HelenW]

After years of supressing my true nature and denying even to myself who I really am I do not trust myself to make decisions about irreversable treatments such as SRS without long and careful consideration, preferrably with the assistance of a professional to help guide and advise me.  I am too convinced, from all of my life experience, of many people's ability to fool themselves.

I also think that changing something as life altering as my gender presentation can unearth other issues that may have been buried by the same tactics I used to bury my self.  I think dealing with those things, should they come up, before surgery would be in my interest too.

So, I think that RLE is an absolutely reasonable safeguard for most people.  The SOC provide for flexibility on the part of the caregiver in the rare cases where the person is absolutely ready to go in a short time.  It does happen but in the main, I think that taking the time to prove yourself, to yourself more than to the caregiver,  is a good thing to do.

helen

[Erica]

I might be wrong about this.  But I thought in Thailand you can get the operation with only a doctor consultation?  They make the call there and then?

Yeah... it means going to Thailand for the op.  But it does make it available without all the hoops if you are truly desperate?

[Annie Social]

Erica,

I believe this varies from doctor to doctor. Here's a link to the policy at Dr. Suporn's clinic:

http://www.supornclinic.com/HTML/Scheduling/protocol.html