The Thoughts of Animals

[drkprincess]

Do you think that animals have thoughts like we do? I know you can see pain fear or joy, like on a puppy for example but do you think that maybe they sit around and think about things in life as we do. Or how far these thoughts go and how long they remain. Like I had a cat once that liked to come into my bedroom and sleep with me, but he would come in after I gone to bed and my door would be closed... He figured out that the door knob opened the door and would jump and try to grab it. Thus getting me up to let him in at least LoL. But he also used this on the front screen door and would let himself out. I wonder how he thought of this, What is your thoughts on things like this and please share any stories you might have :-)

~Rachel~

[lady amarant]

I think the main difference is that we can use reasoning and logic to contradict our instincts - we feel a fear response at something that is strange or different, but instead of attacking it and running away, we can rationally investigate it and conclude something based on our experience. We also have a sense of cause and effect, and through that, of time.

Animals surely have souls, and sure they think too, but I don't think it's generally beyond immediate concerns like recalling that nice little hollow they slept in or where to get the best honey (guess the animal!) Of course, that's surely not true of all animals - dolphins and bonobos and other higher primates, for example, might be as intelligent at least as we are, and simply because we equate technology with intelligence, does not mean they don't have a different higher mind.

[drkprincess]

In that case where could you draw the line between an Intelligent being and an animal? I just sometimes wonder about the different scales of intelligence. Science also looks at brain size, but I think there is more to it then that. Look at how little of our brains we use, what if another being had a smaller brain but used more of it. What if more animals had complex thoughts but no means of acting on them?

~Rachel~

[lady amarant]

To me the key difference is that understanding of cause and effect - actions and consequences and time. That is what gives rise to free will, because we can explore possible futures and change how we might have instinctually reacted because of it.

[drkprincess]

Hmm... but our cats seem to understand cause and effect quite well, as well as time. For example they know that my room mate gets up every morning to go to the bathroom, and somehow they seem to get ready for this because they want to go out. They respond to their names as dogs do. One cat wont respond unless you use her name, I have tested this LOL. They even do things they know they shouldn't do, and when they do these things they take cover before they even get so much as yelled at. And they know what the water bottle does *grin*. I do think that animals have stronger instincts then we do, but as a result of the environment we have created they have had to learn to adapt. I have seen a cat that always looks both ways before crossing the street.

Maybe I am just rambling and thinking about weird things in this late hour LoL

~Rachel~

[lady amarant]

Hmm... but our cats seem to understand cause and effect quite well, as well as time. For example they know that my room mate gets up every morning to go to the bathroom, and somehow they seem to get ready for this because they want to go out. They respond to their names as dogs do. One cat wont respond unless you use her name, I have tested this LOL. They even do things they know they shouldn't do, and when they do these things they take cover before they even get so much as yelled at. And they know what the water bottle does *grin*. I do think that animals have stronger instincts then we do, but as a result of the environment we have created they have had to learn to adapt. I have seen a cat that always looks both ways before crossing the street.

Not rambling - I think you actually make a very good point. The difference to me is that, as far as we know anyway, they can't take a situation and hypothetically project it forward. Yeah, animals have memory, but I don't think it's a question of realising that the water bottle is CAUSED by something they shouldn't be doing, it's more a question of remembering that the water bottle always follows said action. I know it's a fine point to make, but let me try an example:

One of my favourite books is "Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation", a collection of essays about rebellion and about self knowledge. One of the essays deals with the exercise of building a set of moral values up logically as opposed to simply adopting one from a religion or your society. Great essay, BTW.

That's not the point though. The psychologist who wrote the essay talks about childhood development, and mentions that our sense of cause and effect only really develops between the ages of seven and nine. So if a child of five, say, rolls a glass off the table, they actually don't make the connection that they are causing the glass to break - they simply inderstand it sequentially as rolling the glass followed by the glass breaking. A young adult, on the other hand, makes that connection, and that is the dividing line to me. There's another line in that essay that demonstrates it REALLY well: "Human beings are born hairless little monkeys, if not aligators..."  grrrrrrrrrr...

[drkprincess]

You do make a very good point. But it just makes me wonder how we can really know these things. I do think there is a minor understanding, maybe we just over complicate things. There is also the matter of animals being able to know your mood so to speak. Through facial expressions or body language. Its like they know when your mad, sad, or sick.

~Rachel~

[lady amarant]

Oh THAT's true - animals are waaaaay more sensitive to emotion and mood than we are, probably exactly because our minds "over-complicate" things because of logic and stuff.

Frankly, I think human 'intelligence' is waaaaaay overrated sometimes.

[drkprincess]

Yeah, it can be way over rated... seems to me that all my thinking does nothing but cause me pain. Must be nice to be more carefree LoL

~Rachel~

[Pica Pica]

i reckon animals think in the present tense

[lady amarant]

i reckon animals think in the present tense

Sounds about right...

[drkprincess]

That does sound about right, I just think that its just a hair more complicated is all.

~Rachel~