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Androids

Started by Kir, February 19, 2008, 03:05:33 PM

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Kir

Androids are often times depicted as without gender (or on rare occasions as having both). They will sometimes have mild leanings one direction or another, but not specifically.

For example, in Star Wars, C3P0 is usually viewed as being male, however the other protocol droid me briefly meets in Bespin is of a similar make, but is viewed as female (as is the protocol droid that served the Jedis in the Phantom Menace at the beginning).

Now, if we want to get REALLY picky about words, an Android is a male, and a Gynoid is a female, but no one ever has heard of a Gynoid and most people just use Android to refer to any robot that is male or female or both or neither.

I often times very much empathize with androids. To a certain extent I envy them. I find in movies and books that contain robots I feel more of a connection to the robots than to the humans.

So I was curious if others feel this way, or if it's just the technophile in me showing through again...
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Lisbeth

I thought that was "gyneid."
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Kir

Quote from: Lisbeth on February 19, 2008, 03:09:31 PM
I thought that was "gyneid."

Hmm, dunno. My spelling isn't that perfect. Spell check doesn't like either. On the wikipedia it's listed as gynoid, but I've found plenty of spelling and grammar boo boos on there before. Gynoid would fit with the 'american' way we mash words together, but it's derived from latin (andr-/gyne and -eides) and I have unfortunately forgotten most of the latin I learned (and the gendering of words always confused me anyways, go figure).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynoid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism
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Lisbeth

"Woman" is gyne, not gyno.  It looks like somebody is dragging along the "o" from andro, which is "man."  "-oid" is not the suffix; "-id" is.  "Android" is "andro-id," so it should be "gyne-id."  It's more than just a peculiarity of spelling because in Greek, the "-o" ending is always masculine and the "-e" ending is always feminine.  Putting an "-o" ending on "gyn-" is offensive.  Calling a woman that is kind of the Greek equivalent of calling her an "it."
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Kir

Perhaps. I admit I have always been bad at gender. He/She/It... I always get them all muddled up. It's probably that my views of gender are rather blurry. And I know that most people actually don't know latin or greek, so when they say "gynoid" instead of "gyneid" it is in no way meant to offend.

Android was not actually meant to be gendered, in the same sense that "mankind" is not meant to speak specifically about men but about humankind. However, since it technically does have andro-, folks have pretty much decided that it means either "male robot" or "genderless robot" but it does not usually mean "female robot". One of the more famous uses of androids is in Star Wars, and they do have gendered and genderless robots. However, they call them "droids" and leave off the "an" portion (which of course is not proper language, but also if you want to get technical about it I'm pretty sure womprats also are not a form of rat, and let's not even get into midichlorians).

So I think in the spirit of the sci-fi genre, and especially in the spirit of Star Wars, other sci-fi writers wanted to keep with a similar feel to the words (and didn't actually know latin or greek) so had to apply their english understanding of language to the word "android" to make it female, and so made it "gynoid".

There are similar terms that could be used instead, such is "feminoid" however it still has that "oid" portion that makes it masculine in certain languages. And I personally really don't like the term "fembot" because most people tend to think I am talking about a sexbot, which is a COMPLETELY different thing.

From a bit of research it appears that the term was coined by an author by the name of Gwyneth Jones, likely in the early late 70's early 80's.

Most robotics has taken to using the "oid" ending on pretty much everything. Android, Gynoid, Actroid, Humanoid, etc. Although I think it would be nice if all of the scientist researching robotics, and all of the fantasy authors that write about it were to use proper gender usage, I think we should cut them a little slack if they are more focused on learning how to make fuzzy logic and neural networks than on learning how to properly handle gender in greek.

When dealing with neologisms it's important to give a little bit of slack considering their newness, and their agility. However I think society has decided that gynoid is an acceptable term to mean 'female robot' and not gyneid simply based on the internet. If you google both, you will find only one page that uses the word gyneid (and that page has nothing to do with robots), but there are a ton on the word gynoid (including multiple wiki pages).

In a world where the word of the year is w00t (yes, spelled with zeros: http://www.merriam-webster.com/info/07words.htm), the rules of 'proper' language usage are extremely fuzzy, and often times disregarded, such as the all important rule: I before E except after C, and a few other random exceptions (http://alt-usage-english.org/I_before_E.html).

I think it's safe to say that any use of the prefix gyn- should be gyne- except for random exceptions such as gynoid, which should not be viewed as any form of sexism and simply as the fact that scientists and authors like to use big fancy words without actually knowing the language that they are derived from.
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Ell

Quote from: Kir on February 19, 2008, 03:05:33 PM
So I was curious if others feel this way

uh huh.

the attraction, for me at least, seems to be the fact that they lack the bitchiness and greediness that is so prevalent among the skin droids. in fact, while you're in the process of making your android, why add any really negative aspects of the human species?

just include stuff like playfulness, intelligence, and a sense of humor, and voila! a creature as sweet as your dog, which can also speak and do complex math.

-ellie
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Jaimey

you know, in a lot of manga, androids are often used as characters and they are always trying to please their masters.  I can relate to them.  I always put on a happy face to my parents, my friends, etc., to make them happy.  I was basically a robot until a couple of years ago.  I had no personality.  I just did what I was told.  So in that sense, I can relate to androids.

Quote from: ell on February 20, 2008, 02:31:15 PM
just include stuff like playfulness, intelligence, and a sense of humor, and voila! a creature as sweet as your dog, which can also speak and do complex math.

just like that.  (except i'm not so good at calculus...)
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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Kir

Quote from: Jaimey on February 21, 2008, 02:39:40 PM
just like that.  (except i'm not so good at calculus...)

I should be really good at calculus. I took calc 2 probably about 5 times. I even passed it one of those times!
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Jaimey

Quote from: Kir on February 21, 2008, 04:32:52 PM
I should be really good at calculus. I took calc 2 probably about 5 times. I even passed it one of those times!

somehow, I managed to pass cal 1.  my test grades ranged from 34 to 93.  calculus is stupid.  :P
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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kalt

Oh.  HI Casafin, or should I call you Coeruleus?  :-)

I'll be on Ann for a little while tomorrow night.  I burned myself out on Terminate tonight... 4 and a half solid hours after a full day work!:-(
Oh wait... it was 5 and a have hours!
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LynnER

According to the oxford dictonary...

android

/androyd/

  • noun (in science fiction) a robot with a human appearance.


droid

/droyd/

  • noun (in science fiction) a robot.

  — ORIGIN shortening of ANDROID.

gynoid does not show up in the dictonary... neither does gyneid....
Its a sci-fi thing, does gender or lack there of really have anything to do with it?
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kalt

Oxford schmoxford.

An android is some sorta thing kinda like...

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Kir

Well of course it's not in the dictionary, it's a new word. Dictionaries are very slow to adopt words, especially new words. Jedi and Wookiee aren't in dictionaries either, but I dare you to say on the internet that Jedi isn't a real word. I mean heck, it's even made the list as a religion in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1589133.stm

The existence or the non-existence of a word in a dictionary does not dictate it's existence or non-existence in actual human language. I personally find the wikipedia and the wiktionary give a stronger sense of if a word exists in actual real human english. Gynoid is in the wiktionary: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gynoid however gyneid is not.

However, still, it does not prove anything. I have seen in books (and movies, and websites, and many other places) the usage of the word gynoid.

My usage of the word gynoid wasn't even intended as being an issue, it was merely an aside clarifying the male/female/it of the words. I can never understand why people are SO hung up on the he/she/it of things. Does it really MATTER if the technical word is originally meant for male/female/neuter? What matters is the USAGE of a word, the INTENTION of a word. I am especially astonished by how much everyone is caught up on the technical gender usage of a word in a forum that is intended for people that stand outside of the gender issue, and are androgynous. Are we focusing too much on being politically correct with our gender usage when we ourselves try and blur the lines of gender? To a certain extent shouldn't we be ENJOYING using the word gynoid because it has aspects of both male and female? Shouldn't we enjoy using the word android (which suggests male) to refer to a robot that in fact has no gender? Aren't we the same people that enjoy when someone can't figure out if they should use he or she to refer to us?

I guess my original question is if people find themselves attracted or interested in intelligent technology that does not display any form of gender? And if so, is this due to the attraction of intelligent technology, or is it attraction to the lack of gender? And are we able to get past the limitations of language to discuss this without focusing on the details of language usage?
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Jaimey

Quote from: Kir on February 22, 2008, 02:04:42 PM
I guess my original question is if people find themselves attracted or interested in intelligent technology that does not display any form of gender? And if so, is this due to the attraction of intelligent technology, or is it attraction to the lack of gender? And are we able to get past the limitations of language to discuss this without focusing on the details of language usage?

i'm attracted to anything that feels genderless.  People, certain styles of music (80s new wave for example), clothing, etc...anything.  i sometimes feel like a robot.  i get the distinct feeling that people find me cold and emotionless...but that's another topic  ;).

...i don't care too much about semantics myself.  it's a waste of energy to get hung up on the little things.
If curiosity really killed the cat, I'd already be dead. :laugh:

"How far you go in life depends on you being tender with the young, compassionate with the aged, sympathetic with the striving and tolerant of the weak and the strong. Because someday in life you will have been all of these." GWC
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RebeccaFog


I'm attracted to android characters too.

It is a combination of the lack of gender, the ability to learn almost anything, and to not suffer from the stupidness of the human body.  Who wants to quit doing something just to eat.  When you are not purposefully resting, who wants to feel tired or fatigued?


You wouldn't need to be good at math because you could transfer a program into yourself.   

The important things are having creativity and the freedom to express yourself, though.
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Pica Pica

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Patroklos

I always liked the androids in Blade Runner. Pris, especially. I felt like I identified with her a lot.
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