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Do you have to cut ties to your family/friends/job to fully transition?

Started by Just Mandy, March 25, 2008, 12:44:20 PM

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Kate

Is it even truly possible to live in "stealth" forever? Or even without constantly worrying about who might find out somehow?

It just seems like even if I packed up and moved to Elsewhere, sooner or later my past would SOMEHOW leak out. A resume check, a phone call, a male attribute showing, I dunno. Something.

And once one person knows, that's it. The pool is contaminated. It's just matter of time before it spreads to others, and they tell, and they tell... and suddenly I'm back in the same environment again where Everyone Knows.

I just don't see ever escaping this entirely. Maybe the "escape" I/we want so badly needs to happen in our heads, not our environment?

~Kate~
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buttercup

Quote from: Kate on March 28, 2008, 07:07:18 PM
Is it even truly possible to live in "stealth" forever? Or even without constantly worrying about who might find out somehow?

It just seems like even if I packed up and moved to Elsewhere, sooner or later my past would SOMEHOW leak out. A resume check, a phone call, a male attribute showing, I dunno. Something.

And once one person knows, that's it. The pool is contaminated. It's just matter of time before it spreads to others, and they tell, and they tell... and suddenly I'm back in the same environment again where Everyone Knows.

I just don't see ever escaping this entirely. Maybe the "escape" I/we want so badly needs to happen in our heads, not our environment?
~Kate~

I don't think anyone can truly escape there past, and that can be any kind of past, not necessarily related to being trans.  I agree, its what is going on in ones head that sets you free.  And I also cling to the belief that eventually people will not care less about who you were before, its a non-issue.  :)
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NicholeW.

Quote from: buttercup on March 28, 2008, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: Kate on March 28, 2008, 07:07:18 PM
Is it even truly possible to live in "stealth" forever? Or even without constantly worrying about who might find out somehow?


And once one person knows, that's it. The pool is contaminated. It's just matter of time before it spreads to others, and they tell, and they tell... and suddenly I'm back in the same environment again where Everyone Knows.

I just don't see ever escaping this entirely. Maybe the "escape" I/we want so badly needs to happen in our heads, not our environment?

I don't think anyone can truly escape there past, and that can be any kind of past, not necessarily related to being trans.  I agree, its what is going on in ones head that sets you free.  And I also cling to the belief that eventually people will not care less about who you were before, its a non-issue.  :)

I think that most people, even those who 'know' don't truly 'know' provided they didn't know you before. For that, there is what Tink suggested -- radical surgery.

When people gender you, it's done. You're gendered. They will try to find stuff that might give them some idea of what you looked like before, but, they tend to search in vain.

Just like the thought that you are constantly being read, their searches end in the dead-ends of their own mind and their own sense of your gender.

I know this occurs. I've watched it.

For instance, my practice supervisor 'knows' about me. Yet, she never knew me in any shape or any way except as Nichole. Though she knows she relates to me as she relates to the other female interns. (How do I know, some of you might ask. Talk to someone who has lived their lives female or male for a few or many years and see how we know. It's something you 'get.' Something you simply come to know through experience and repetition.)

Oddly enough, cissexuals are as chained by their gendering of us as we are by our gendering of ourselves. There are ways that one of us can come to that place where even in all honesty our history is male or female, depending on whether we are FTM or MTF.

I'm unsure that most cissexuals can do that. Why? They don't, at least haven't, ever had to or contemplate how one, or why one, might do that.

Complexity R Us.

Nichole
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Tink on March 28, 2008, 09:33:01 PM
... people would need to be REALLY obsessed with you to do all that searching based on an assumption, no?

yes!!!  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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tinkerbell

In my life there are people that KNOW about my past.  My therapist, my gynecologist, the nurses that helped me during a migraine attack two months ago, etc.  I'm aware that I can't erase my past entirely, but in my case I have found a comfort zone where I can live at peace with myself and those I love without the constant reminder that I wasn't born female.

As far as strangers are concerned, perhaps there are a few that "suspect", but as Nichole pointed out, suspicion is NOT knowing.  They can search all they want, undress me if they have to, check my legal documentation, etc, but they won't find a thing.  And besides, people would need to be REALLY obsessed with you to do all that searching based on an assumption, no?

tink :icon_chick:

Posted on: March 28, 2008, 09:37:35 PM
I don't know what I did.  I tried to modify my post (to correct a spelling error) and reposted it instead.

Duh!  :P

tink :icon_chick:
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on March 28, 2008, 10:56:54 PM
i dont see how i'm gonna make it.  i really dont.

By understanding what you know in-court: that Atticus Finch was a fictional character and that sometimes the best you will be able to do is to do your best and not expect an acquittal from an all-white jury in Mississippi in the 1930s.

She hurts and she wants everyone to see what she sees, Ash. Her husband, a male. The world doesn't cooperate and she's having a very difficult time with that. This is where you defocus on you and try to get into her feelings.

Let's see, on a guess I'd imagine: betrayal, horror, depression, frustration, anger. She married a husband. She doesn't want a wife and she wants you 'to come to your senses' and for things to be what she thought they were. She wants to change you, just not in the way you wish to change.

You'll make it. Your marriage may well not.

Damn, that isn't meant to be harsh. Sorry if it is.

Hugs,

Nichole
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Rachael

i dont think so... transition doesnt require stealth and total cutoff...
if my family accepted me, id be happy, thier my family, regardless of my gender. thats important to me.
as for work? meh, i guess not. if people accept you, then theres no need is there?
R >:D
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NicholeW.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on March 29, 2008, 11:27:37 AM
Quote from: Nichole on March 29, 2008, 08:30:06 AM
Quote from: Ashley Michelle on March 28, 2008, 10:56:54 PM
i dont see how i'm gonna make it.  i really dont.

By understanding what you know in-court: that Atticus Finch was a fictional character and that sometimes the best you will be able to do is to do your best and not expect an acquittal from an all-white jury in Mississippi in the 1930s.

She hurts and she wants everyone to see what she sees, Ash. Her husband, a male. The world doesn't cooperate and she's having a very difficult time with that. This is where you defocus on you and try to get into her feelings.

Let's see, on a guess I'd imagine: betrayal, horror, depression, frustration, anger. She married a husband. She doesn't want a wife and she wants you 'to come to your senses' and for things to be what she thought they were. She wants to change you, just not in the way you wish to change.

You'll make it. Your marriage may well not.

Damn, that isn't meant to be harsh. Sorry if it is.

Hugs,

Nichole


no, its not harsh.  the fact that someone else sees me as i really am is like the toll of doom for her.....a realization of her greatest fear.....that i'm a girl and it isnt a private thing anymore....especially when during our argument, i finally exploded with "do you think this is the FIRST time?  it happens ALL THE TIME."  it didnt help, i know, and she said she didnt believe me.

when she lets herself be rational, she really does understand gid and the struggles i have....but she focuses so much on her own pain and refuses to get counseling.....she told me to get it, because maybe a counselor can tell me what i need to do to be me....meaning that she wants me to be the one to say our marriage is over.....my therapist says that she refuses to take responsibility for her own life.....which i think there is some truth to.

am i ending a sentence with a preposition?  damn.



Honey, you know, I hope, that I care for you. But I find your follow-up so very ironic. It sounds like me a few years ago!!  :laugh: That should warn you that you are doing something mistakenly here!!  :laugh: Don't do as I do, do as I say!!!  :laugh: :laugh:

You are both doing the exact same thing according to this last post. You each wants heard and each of you want 'heard' so well that the other gives up their opposition or their intention to the other's pov. *sigh* I remember this. All too well.

So each of you wants the other to see a therapist? I'd say you both have good sense in that regard. It may not save the marriage, but it may well save each of you a whole lot of pain and rancor.

She seems to think that a 'rational' therapist will agree with her; yet, she also is probably afraid that that will not be the case as well so she refuses to go.

And she doesn't believe others see you as female because she doesn't herself. That can be very problematic, hon. Again, I recall how astounded my ex was that her friends who I knew and who knew me didn't recognize me after a few months HRT. That was HUGE.

We split. It isn't required that that occur, but from just what you post it does sound like you guys are heading that direction.

Honestly, Ash, I feel for her. I feel for any woman who goes through the transition of who she thought was her husband or for any man who goes through the transition of who he thought was his wife. So many dreams, hopes, expectations get locked up in our commitment relationships I am actually surprised that any of them ever work out to the good. Especially in this age of longer lives and less rigid social constructions. Not so long ago any of us would be fortunate to have lived past 40!

She recalls promises and dreams. You have your own investments in those. Family counseling may help, but I'd suggest individual for you both first. Finally, I expect it will all hang on what both of you are willing to accept from the other. As things stand now, it doesn't sound like there is much overlapping ground.

HUGS, and all the best for you both.

N~
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seldom

For me I have little respect for my family.  I do not buy, they are my family no matter what.  They were by far the least understanding and most cruel.  But I had a pretty negative history to begin with.  We cut each other off, I saw them as worthless subhuman bigots and told them so.  Family is pretty useless when it gets down to it.  To say family is family, would mean to take harmful and abusive language, and bigotry.  When it gets down to it blood is pretty meaningless if they do not respect your decisions.   Family is like any other relationship, if they do not demonstrate tolerance, understanding, and support, they do not deserve to be talked to and should be cut off immediately.  They are no different then friends, if anything they have a much shorter leash.  One chooses friends, no choice is involved with family.  You can be stuck with people who in many cases are diametric opposites in every respect.  My family for example is conservative, idiotic and bigoted.  Where I am liberal, only intolerant of those who are intolerant on the basis of race, gender, gender identity, and sexual orientation, and considerably more intelligent then every one of my family members.  They are not worth talking to, and them being family matters very little to me.

Friends.  Its not so much I lost them, but I grew apart from men in my life.  But this was the effect of me moving to transition.  The women I still talk to.  Suddenly I became another girlfriend. 

Work...well I am still working at the workplace I transitioned at.  I have some great co-workers.  I mean I may leave one day, but it will be reasons outside of transition.

I think over time, all things do fade.  But I think that is less an effect of transition and more of an effect of life.  To me.  I lost my family.
Friends change.  One gets new jobs. 
One does not have to abandon everything to fully transition, but when one fully transition everything does change, and some things in life just fade or morph into something else.

With regards to pronouns, I never hear sir from those I know. 


Additionally with regards to friends and how supportive they are.  Most of my friends were third wave (inclusive) feminists, open minded lesbians, female musicians and bi women.  Basically speaking the type of people who respect trans womens female identities and get it.

If you are losing friends as a result of transition, it does speak quite a bit about how you chose friends before hand.  Those of us who did not run toward masculinity and were more inbetween with regards to our gender and were in largely younger queer circles have fewer problems. Note this is not always meaning gay, gay men can be very transphobic, the straight identified transwomen who were in the gay community at one point have very different perspectives of the queer community as those who transitioned from genderqueer or androgyne, and were sometimes closer to alternative queer culture where people identify as queer rather then gay.  This is kind of complex to explain even to people who spent their time in segments of the queer community, the gay male community is only representing one segment of the larger queer community, and there are divisions within the community.  Thats why there are women like me who never quite leave the queer community and the constructs of our circle of friends seem to change very little.  With me my friends went from being queer women before to queer women afterwards. 


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Wing Walker

If you don't cut your family ties, your family will cut them for you.  Been there.  Learned that.

You might do OK on your job.  That largely depends on how much they want you to stay, what laws and regulations apply to transsexual persons who transition on the job, and your co-workers.

Friends, OK, toss a coin.  I have one friend of 51 years and others who don't want to know me.

I have a pretty hard shell and a wonderful soulmate and lifepartner, Cindy.  She is all that I need or want.  Pits on everyone else who used to be family or friends.

Wing Walker
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Keira


Once you've taken care of the big stuff documentation wise and body wise,
moved and let your credit history espunge itself (which can take time),
well unless somebody has lots of time on their hands, or hires an investigator,
how would they know? If someone's that obsessed, you should probably
tell the police that someone's stalking you... ;)

As for family, mine is just fine with it after a bumpy few initial months.

Friends, I've kept them all.

I think it has to do with how you present yourself.

Real friends, if they see that this is the answer to the riddle
that you were all these years, they are fine with it.
Others... Who cares really.



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Rachael

when i cane out, i actually MADE more friends.... i didnt loose one of the friends i told.... ive gotten closer too them, and our friendship is more open and honest and true now.... (aside from my parents)


Its ironic, my mother told me that if i transitioned, id live a life of lonelyness, being hated, socially rejected, id never get a job, no family, no love, and id be bullied and mocked at every corner....

seems thats just by them.
R >:D
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Eva Marie

Quote from: Tanya1 on March 25, 2008, 03:25:01 PM
Quote from: Kate on March 25, 2008, 01:40:01 PM



I have a best friend, but he's kinda fallen away since I transitioned. He accepts me just fine, but I guess Be Careful What You Wish For, as now that we don't do male sorta things (cars, Xbox, computers), he seems less and less interested. I'm not the same person he became friends with. When we hang out together now, it looks like we're on a date... which is seriously weird, lol.


~Kate~

LOL- I can relate too with this. While I'm not accepted as "one of the girls" in society since I haven't even come out. I share absouletly nothing in common guys. Even though I may look like one of the guys I'm not one of them. Like there's nothing really to talk about with guys- a lot of guys do however see me as a guy but don't relate or associate with- They'll say "wats up" etc etc but that's all it really goes- It NEVER goes to the personal aspect of a conversation that guys have with each other.- Like some guys meet me for the first time. And you know how people first say hi to each other and joke around to get to be friend and know each other. it never goes past that..lol...

I think the BIG part of people seeing me as a guy still is my appearance. It's just stereotyping that people are inclined to do by human nature. It's just how MOST people's brains work. For example- many people have a tendency to think I'm some "tough, rude, obnixous, cocky" guy just based on appearance. What's funny is that I'm a very quiet kind of person- and people start taking me as rude when I don't even intend to be.- people have a VERY bad habit of judging others based on clothes, hair and physical appearance. Don't want to get too long here but I'm reading a book called Law of Success which is a physcology type book that teaches you how to build a winning personality to achieve success. One of the biggest problems is judging others on first appearances. It said that you have to observe people closely in HOW they react when they are angry, in love, jealous, fearful, when writing, when eating, when money is involved, when in loss.

But you see, Now I realize that LOOKING like a woman or man WILL not make you fit in that gender. Rather your personality, how you are in the INSIDE, how well you relate to that gender and if your BRAIN is wired to behave like that gender is the important piece! For example. You could look like a man when you really feel like a woman. Sure others would treat you like a man based on your appearance. BUt once they really get to know you deep inside- you won't recieve the same treatment. Maybe they won't treat you as a woman but they sure won't treat you like man much.

Hormones, surgery etc can only do so much- it's your BRAIN and THOUGHTS that make you, YOU!- Sure, HRT makes brain changes happen BUT it was your brain unaltered that decided to embark on Hormones.

As for Male friends, Kate, I know guys casually here and their type of thing but I don't have anything to do with them.
As for girls- I can relate to them better but I'm not friends with them either.

As for Relatives and Family. Well my cousins, uncles and aunts aren't too close nor too distant. Were sort of like close friends but also family. You can say we are close since I maybe be moving in with them but I don't do "male things" with guys in my family.

I don't have interests in video games, sports much etc- but that is just a stereotype. Girls can like video games and still relate better with girls.

Okay this is my last comment and then I'll shutup lol, I think transgenders are generally (not specifically) better at understanding human behavior and how socialization works. While others don't put much though into it- they just dive in.- THAT'S A BENEFIT OF BEING TS!





I get this; kind of the same deal I have at the moment. I'm a guy, but share nothing with the guys that I know.
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Keira


How you look, changes how people act, if you dress well, take care of yourself,
your treated very differently than if you spend the night on a bender and
show up somewhere looking disheveled in jeans. You may be the same person,
but people have a whole slew of tags they've put on you just because of your looks.
If you then go on to speak with an Oxford accent on the merits of unpasteurized
cheese and fine point of polo, they may reverse somewhat their assessment, but
only to a point.

The same thing with gender, if someone sees you as a girl, it changes the way they
act with you, that happens with a women or a man.

That's what Kate as seen with her male friend, he sees a woman and there is
an powerfull social and genetic actions linked to this. Its unconscious an
will make his friend's action quite different no matter how long they've been together.
The only way the actions will not be different is if he would still see her as a man,
which I think is not the case.



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