Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Androgynees vs Tomboys and Femboys?

Started by Nero, April 16, 2008, 11:39:02 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

suzifrommd

Quote from: foosnark on May 29, 2012, 01:13:50 PM
I am not girly... in fact I resent being seen as "sissy" or effeminate, while at the same time really not being manly in most aspects.
Interesting. For me it's more like a habit, like learning not to touch hot things by being burned too many times. It's ingrained not to act effeminate at the risk of being ribbed about it.

If someone called me a sissy, I'd like to think I'd fire back something like "Something wrong with that?"

But secretly, I might take it as a compliment.
Have you read my short story The Eve of Triumph?
  •  

Pica Pica

A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.

Pica,

Thanks for this historical perspective!

Z is definitely a bit of a Mollygirl  ;D

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

Taka

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.
i think i can finally be a girl after all
mollygirl doesn't sound half as awkward as real girl for this side to my personality
  •  

eli77

Quote from: Pica Pica on June 02, 2012, 06:51:28 PM
A more historically correct term for the male version of a 'Tomboy' would be a 'Mollygirl'. As Tom was eighteenth century slang for lesbian and Molly for gay man.

I'm sure I've heard that somewhere before but I can't remember when or where. Thank you for the reminder! I love them.

I've been both a mollygirl and a tomboy. I wonder how many folks can say that. ;)

Quote from: Taka on June 03, 2012, 03:32:49 PM
i think i can finally be a girl after all
mollygirl doesn't sound half as awkward as real girl for this side to my personality

That's pretty much how I feel about being a tomboy.
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: Sarah7 on June 03, 2012, 05:05:35 PM
I've been both a mollygirl and a tomboy. I wonder how many folks can say that. ;)

I aspire to all  ;D

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

foosnark

If someone is both tomboy and mollygirl, does that make them... a tamale?
  •  

Padma

...and the topic just keeps on getting dug up again :).

Sorry, I got pointed here from the Androgyne Introductions topic, and I've just been catching up with all this (fascinating reading, I don't know how I missed this before).

I think about all this a lot. There's sex, and there's gender. I got landed with the wrong sex, by accident - male body - and I'm resolving that by transitioning. So I'm female. But am I a woman? I'm not sure, and I'm encouraged to be not sure by both mainstream society, and by mainstream trans women where I live. This is because the Norm Definition of Woman is something I'm not, and don't want to be, and don't want to be seen as - which is very predominantly feminine.

So some of the time, I'm content calling myself a Trans Tomboy, because when I say that to most people, they get a much more accurate picture in their heads of what I am than if I just say Trans Woman. But then reading the above discussion, I'm probably more androgyne than woman when it comes to gender identity. Or... am I just a very genderqueer woman? :)

Hahahaha, it actually made me laugh, pretending these labels are actual discrete things with sharp borders between them - they're just words to try to describe (and delineate) something that's very subjective and impressionistic.

Anyway, today at least, I don't identify as a woman, but I do identify as female. So I guess I'm an androgyne female who likes calling herself a tomboy, a dyke, because those labels are the closest approximation to what I am that are in widespread usage. The way I choose to present myself gets called "butch" sometimes (in the context of people thinking of me as a woman) - back when I was a teenage "boy" and dressed exactly the same way, I got labelled "effeminate". Still, I feel more comfortable knowing my clothes are technically "women's clothes", because they're built to fit my budding new body-shape. But they're fairly blokey for women's clothes! It's all so up for grabs!!
Womandrogyne™
  •  

Kaelin

I think something that's sort of confounding tomboy and mollygirl is that the "new normal" for girls is not exceedingly feminine.  What I think gets labeled "tomboy" ends up being a smaller shift from the norm for girls/women than what a "mollygirl" or "femboy" is for boys/men.

Put another way, if each person is regarded as having femininity + masculinity = 100, it might be something where the average woman is around 55 on the femininity scale, with a "tomboy" clocking in around 25.  Meanwhile the average man is clocking a femininity score around 15, but a mollygirl/femboy hitting a femininity score of 75.  This is not only a larger shift (60 points instead of 30), but this direction is a much greater taboo.

By these constructs, it's not really unreasonable for an androgynous woman to take on a label like tomboy, because relative to what is normal for men and women, it's more or less a fairly androgynous result.  Femboys are... not so much.

As you said, these are all arbitrary distinctions, but I think the skewed symmetry gives a different picture for tomboy and for femboy.
  •  

Padma

Quote from: Kaelin on November 03, 2012, 04:47:07 AM
As you said, these are all arbitrary distinctions, but I think the skewed symmetry gives a different picture for tomboy and for femboy.

I agree. The concepts of tomboy and femboy can't really be analogous, because within the culture they're being used (let's assume femboy is being used, for the sake of argument :)), the ground rules are very different for men and women.

It fascinates me that "metrosexual" got coined as a way to distinguish a man who's not feminine/effeminate/queer but who likes to take care of his appearance, in a particular way. This seems a covert way of saying "a metrosexual man has a different acceptability rating as a man from one who is feminine/effeminate/queer". Creepy.

I have a straight cis woman friend who's middle-aged, who is a tomboy. She constantly has people assume she's (a) younger than she is, and (b) queer. Because grownup, straight women don't dress like that, dear ::).

It's sort of like how stars' gravities affect each other - the gravity wells of cultural expectations around men/women pull us androgyne folk willy-nilly into positions and presentations that are different from the ones we might otherwise choose, in order for each of us to maintain a stable orbit. Or something. That made more sense in my head.
Womandrogyne™
  •  

Pica Pica

I like that description.

Of course that could also mean that androgynes are eccentric in the original astronomical sense, which is very tidy.

Also gives and excuse for posting

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
  •  

SUMMERWINE

i think some of it is how the person feels comfortable presenting to the world. when the gender identity is closer to the center of the gender spectrum then the need to show full gender expression is not as great as a person who is higher up each path of gender error.  is a cis woman who presents as a male the same as a trans woman presenting as a tomboy? dont forget there are at least 2 things to consider there is the gender identity side, roughly put how you feel your body should be, and then there is the gender presentation, how you like to be seen. the two can conflict in some and make the understanding of where u fit in confusing. the more to the middle of the spectrum you are the more u tend to identify with terms like tomboy or femboy.  gender identity can be a thing you can alter ie srs for a transwoman but choose not to show to a level where people notice. maybe one day it will be acceptable for a man to say he wants female body but not present as wholly female and be accepted on gender treatment. but thats a whole new topic  ;D
  •  

ativan

Quote from: Padma on November 03, 2012, 06:24:42 AM
It's sort of like how stars' gravities affect each other - the gravity wells of cultural expectations around men/women pull us androgyne folk willy-nilly into positions and presentations that are different from the ones we might otherwise choose, in order for each of us to maintain a stable orbit. Or something. That made more sense in my head.
Makes sense to me. We are not a problem, the only problem is binaries who try to define something they can't perceive.
We are a problem to ourselves when we try to have labels that satisfy the perceptions of binaries.
Percentages or scores do nothing to define a gender.
You could have a very small percentage or score and find that a small part of you is as strong or stronger than the rest of your score.
It's difficult to define non-binaries with terms and definitions that come from a binary world.
I think that in doing so, it is to satisfy binaries, not ourselves.
To much of it is based on presentation, androgyous explanations.
There are many things that define female and male.
If you think about it, you are using many of those same things. Just in a different way.
Female and male are not anymore exclusive than whatever combination you are.
Binary terms are used, as they are able to use a cloud of combinations to define themselves, just as we do, but there is a tendency to dismiss anything other than those combinations.
They want it to be more exclusive, and why not?...they are the assumed majority, and binary speak is the language that is used.
As difficult as it is to use pronouns that they have never used, so are the terms and definitions that come with them.
We run into the same problems with this, except it is from a different perspective.
Like some places you may travel to, explaining it is often left at, 'You would of had to have been there.'
But there are more and more people who are able to understand that it is something.
But to understand it, you had to have been there.
That's the acceptance of those kind of definitions.
In looking for definitions we are really just looking for the words of acceptance.

As for 'Mollygirl',...
Female mules are referred to as Molly's.
From wikiwhatever, A female mule that has estrus cycles and thus, in theory, could carry a fetus, is called a "molly" or "Molly mule," though the term is sometimes used to refer to female mules in general. Pregnancy is rare, but can occasionally occur naturally as well as through embryo transfer. One of several terms for a gelded mule is a "John mule."
This is what I think of when I hear Mollygirl.
Molly as a mule is a reference that I am used to.
But I do like the sound of it, as I do Tomboy.
My feelings about myself are not unlike Padma, Shantel and Z.
My definition of myself, I simply leave it as 'Me'.
Ativan
  •  

Padma

As I mentioned in another topic, Molly and Queen are terms for fertile female cats, before and after they've had kittens respectively. And Tom is a fertile male cat. And Molly/Queen & Tom are all old terms for male and female prostitutes/homosexuals (as Pica pointed out).

Which somehow (in my mind) links up with the general public's tendency to associate non-conforming gender/sexuality with sexual promiscuity/predation - which is a cultural myth I've never understood. We live in a weird world, with weird people. It's a good thing we're weird.
Womandrogyne™
  •  

Randi

"wants female body but not present as wholly female"

This phrase really struck a chord in me.  I don't mind dressing male or being perceived as male, but my body really needs to be as feminine as I can get it.

Thanks to hormones I'm more than halfway there, with "T & A" and really nice legs. 

It's hard to describe how I feel when I put a man's suit on over my feminized, but originally male body.  I'm  aware that I'm "crossdressing" but it feels OK.

Can you get more genderqueer than this: I feel like an FTM transsexual in a man's body.

Randi 


Quote from: SUMMERWINE on November 03, 2012, 10:43:04 AM
dont forget there are at least 2 things to consider there is the gender identity side, roughly put how you feel your body should be, and then there is the gender presentation, how you like to be seen. the two can conflict in some and make the understanding of where u fit in confusing. the more to the middle of the spectrum you are the more u tend to identify with terms like tomboy or femboy.  gender identity can be a thing you can alter ie srs for a transwoman but choose not to show to a level where people notice. maybe one day it will be acceptable for a man to say he wants female body but not present as wholly female and be accepted on gender treatment. but thats a whole new topic  ;D
  •  

SUMMERWINE

i think im a transgendered transgender lol. 
  •  

eli77

Quote from: Padma on November 03, 2012, 04:02:05 AM
I don't identify as a woman, but I do identify as female.

Quote from: Randi on November 03, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
This phrase really struck a chord in me.  I don't mind dressing male or being perceived as male, but my body really needs to be as feminine as I can get it.

Oh hey, we should start a club.


I use tomboy because it's... less work? And I don't like talking about my gender (or lack thereof) much with cis people (or binary trans people). Tomboy sort of... categorizes me for them so they don't want more information. It's more of a description than an identity I guess.

Quote from: Kaelin on November 03, 2012, 04:47:07 AM
Put another way, if each person is regarded as having femininity + masculinity = 100, it might be something where the average woman is around 55 on the femininity scale, with a "tomboy" clocking in around 25.  Meanwhile the average man is clocking a femininity score around 15, but a mollygirl/femboy hitting a femininity score of 75.  This is not only a larger shift (60 points instead of 30), but this direction is a much greater taboo.

Meh. I get perceived as an androgynous lesbian most of the time (like very far into tomboy range) or a super femme-y gay boy occasionally. Wearing the same clothes. The scale is screwed, man. Totally screwed.
  •  

Ave

Quote from: Sarah7 on November 03, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
Oh hey, we should start a club.


I use tomboy because it's... less work? And I don't like talking about my gender (or lack thereof) much with cis people (or binary trans people). Tomboy sort of... categorizes me for them so they don't want more information. It's more of a description than an identity I guess.

Meh. I get perceived as an androgynous lesbian most of the time (like very far into tomboy range) or a super femme-y gay boy occasionally. Wearing the same clothes. The scale is screwed, man. Totally screwed.

lol that always struck me as hilarious, that butch girl and pretty gay boy were so removed yet really close on the identifying scale :D
I can see me
I can see you
Are you me?
Or am I you?
  •  

Kaelin

In the end, that's why I feel comfortable going back to ideas like "male androgyne" or "gender nonconformist" or "nonconformist."  I don't think they're so specific that they expect a certain presentation, just that I may fall outside the male norm.
  •  

Padma

Quote from: Randi on November 03, 2012, 12:54:02 PM
Can you get more genderqueer than this: I feel like an FTM transsexual in a man's body.

Oh, snappy-snap snap!

The more I feminise, the more dressing "butch" feels right (button-down shirts and waistcoats are making their way into my wardrobe right now). And it's very likely that after surgery, I'm going to want to pack sometimes :). And reading lots of YA LGBT fiction, it's the FTM's I really identify with (because to a woman, all the MTF's in the stories want to be as girly as possible).

Go, us ;D.
Womandrogyne™
  •