Wiccan Magick

[VeryGnawty]

Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Tradition, mostly.

People are taught that they are supposed to be a certain way and do a certain thing.  People are taught that they are supposed to play with footballs instead of dolls, that they should take rather than give orders, or that they should go to college, eat breakfast, go on a diet, have kids, raise a family, drive a car, hold a steady job, celebrate their birthday, and pay their taxes.

Most people will do all of these things without ever considering why they are doing them, or who they are doing them for.  The sad fact of the matter is that most people will live their lives without ever questioning whether their dreams have meaning, whether ghosts exist, or whether they have the power to converse with their dead grandmother, or even speak to God himself.  And certainly few people will even question who God is in the first place.

Some of us will realize more.  We will realize that there are more conscious things to be aware of than our own body and our own existence.  That there is more knowledge than merely science.  That there is a greater state of mind than judgment and ignorance.  That there is a universe in a flower, or an ecosystem in a breath.  That the whole world is connected.  That no action is insignificant, that no intent goes unheard.  That there is more power, and more love, than people have previously imagined.

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians.  We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else.  And because we have seen the light before others, we are condemned to pursue that light in spite of others.  Because once you have seen the light, you will no longer desire to dwell in darkness and ignorance.

I've had many amazing visions during my meditations.  And I don't care anymore that people laugh at me or try to tell me that I'm wasting my time.  Because I've seen other possibilities.  I've seen a brave new world.  I can let people live their lives in judgment, worried about their gas prices and their picket fence.  I don't care that they call me delusional, because I know they are just as much so.  They have convinced themselves that there is nothing beyond the body, that society is important, or that there is nothing more to life than death and taxes.  But these things, these ideas and limitations, aren't any more "real" than the visions I experience in my meditations.

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

[cindybc]

Hi VeryGnawty

That was some wonderful enlightening insights that I have heard many times from different people, maybe different words. but same meanings. I just only wish I could share it with others but as you have seen here. Most don't seem to care and as for telling anyone about your visions in meditation, don't bother, people just think your nuts. Anyway that's it for me and the metaphysical. I know what I know and it will remain within me. Sadly that if only people realised that by following the light this light can also enlighten the inner-self. Such a waste because such an understanding could be a great tool for understanding our transsexuality, *the inner self*.

Cindy

   

[Wing Walker]

Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Tradition, mostly.

People are taught that they are supposed to be a certain way and do a certain thing.  People are taught that they are supposed to play with footballs instead of dolls, that they should take rather than give orders, or that they should go to college, eat breakfast, go on a diet, have kids, raise a family, drive a car, hold a steady job, celebrate their birthday, and pay their taxes.

Most people will do all of these things without ever considering why they are doing them, or who they are doing them for.  The sad fact of the matter is that most people will live their lives without ever questioning whether their dreams have meaning, whether ghosts exist, or whether they have the power to converse with their dead grandmother, or even speak to God himself.  And certainly few people will even question who God is in the first place.

Some of us will realize more.  We will realize that there are more conscious things to be aware of than our own body and our own existence.  That there is more knowledge than merely science.  That there is a greater state of mind than judgment and ignorance.  That there is a universe in a flower, or an ecosystem in a breath.  That the whole world is connected.  That no action is insignificant, that no intent goes unheard.  That there is more power, and more love, than people have previously imagined.

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians.  We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else.  And because we have seen the light before others, we are condemned to pursue that light in spite of others.  Because once you have seen the light, you will no longer desire to dwell in darkness and ignorance.

I've had many amazing visions during my meditations.  And I don't care anymore that people laugh at me or try to tell me that I'm wasting my time.  Because I've seen other possibilities.  I've seen a brave new world.  I can let people live their lives in judgment, worried about their gas prices and their picket fence.  I don't care that they call me delusional, because I know they are just as much so.  They have convinced themselves that there is nothing beyond the body, that society is important, or that there is nothing more to life than death and taxes.  But these things, these ideas and limitations, aren't any more "real" than the visions I experience in my meditations.

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

Hello, Very,

I do not know anything of Wicca.  I was born into a family that has been Catholic for more than a millenium .  However, I do know when something makes sense to me and I grab onto it and hold it with all I can.  Such is what you have written here.  I could not have said it better myself.  I wish I had said it.

There is nothing in what you have said that is not a part of my own belief system and I love it that way.  It allows me to be unalterably optimistic, joyously romantic, thankful for each second that passes and that which fills it.  Simply because I cannot see something with my eyes doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.  I have always questioned authority and have been very judicious with it when it was given to me.  I prefer to build people up to tearing them down.

Dreams are, IMHO, are a gift from my Creator so that I might have some sort of road map to find a higher plane on which to exist, to have more to share with others.  Call it karma or whatever you will, but the more that is given to someone by the Higher Power, the more that will be required of that person and I stand ready to share whatever I have.

Many people have no idea of the time value of money, not to mention the value of time itself.  There is so much work to be done to make this world a better place to live and so few people willing to skip watching "American Idol" to do it.

"Will you try to change things with the power that you have, with the power of a million new ideas?" --- from "Dialogues" by Chicago

Thank you for sharing and thank you for hearing me out, All.

Wing Walker

[Lisbeth]

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

[VeryGnawty]

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

But the real question is, which one are you creating?  Are you creating limits, or acceptance?  Love, or hate?  Joy, or despair?

It doesn't matter what the world does to us.  It only matters what we do to the world.

[SarahFaceDoom]

For me Magic is the most effective metaphor for interacting with the reality around me as I currently perceive it.  I think Science is a system in the same way.  But I'm less comfortable with it's jargon, so instead of talking about Heisenberg or whatever, I talk about Phil Hine.

I've only been practicing magic for about 7 or 8 months now, but I've already seen and done some amazing things with my work, and it progresses daily.  I try to keep record of what procedures I do, and what results I get, so that I can get better and better at the systems I've helped put together. 

[Ell]

Why is it that when people like me have religious and/or mystical experiences, they're crap (per Laura), placebos (per Tekla), or it's just that I don't know what I'm talking about (per Ellie)?

Those of us who realize this, call ourselves magicians. 

We have become enlightened sooner than everyone else. 

I have already chosen my belief.  What's yours?

i already stated my position (sorry 'bout that).

however, since it was almost universally hated, i will try and cease discussing it here, and i will remove my original post.

-Ellie

[SarahFaceDoom]

What were you wanting to discuss?  I didn't see what you originally wrote.

[Osiris]

Ell, don't feel bad for sharing your opinion. There'll always be someone who doesn't agree with you (like me), but don't let that make you feel like you should keep your opinions to yourself.

Personally, I don't like the idea of steering away from using certain terms. It's like trying to explain something in a round about way to avoid admitting that you believe in it. Or to curve the way it's presented to make it more believable, either for yourself or others.

people apparently have no more reason to believe me than i have to believe them, when they start talking about a metaphysical concept.

When it comes to magic and/or religion you have to accept that there are 2 types of people: Believers and non-believers. And it takes a lot more than a few carefully chosen words to turn a non-believer into a believer and vice-versa.

[Lisbeth]

Perhaps there is a little bit of truth in both choices.  In my philosophy this world is a place of both true joy and true sorrow, and I have known both.

But the real question is, which one are you creating?  Are you creating limits, or acceptance?  Love, or hate?  Joy, or despair?

It doesn't matter what the world does to us.  It only matters what we do to the world.

I would have to say that we individually create both joy and sorrow.  I don't think we have complete choice in that.  But we also pass around what we create to others.  So there are two questions.  What do we make an effort to create?  And what do we impose on those around us?

[tekla]

Everyone chooses their own delusion in life.  And there are only two choices, when it really comes down to it.  You can either live in fear, or you can believe that anything is possible.  You can believe that love is endless, that technology is limitless, that the world is abundant.  Or you can believe that love is fleeting, that the world has limits, and that people are savage.

The old joke is that there are two groups of people in the world, those that divide everyone into two groups, and those who do not.  Guess I'm part of that other group. 

That endless love in some way or another always ends is no reason not to go after it.  That technology is not limitless, is not a reason not to use it to the limits, that the world is finite is not a reason for you to seek abundance. 

It does not require a life of fear to realize that everything is not exactly possible.  Try as you might, or as I might - and all the practice, all the workouts (or even magic) and neither of us are ever going to be Mike Jordan or Tiger Woods.  OK, I can live with that.  I can live with all the study under the best teachers and I was not going to be Einstein, but with work I could begin to glimpse what he was saying, and that ain't bad. 

I spent all of the last week and a half standing on stage and in the audience watching Jackie Green, Larry Cambell, Phil Lesh and Carlos Santana and even though I'm not half bad, I ain't ever going to be that good.  So, I'm not selling out the Warfield or the Fillmore, perhaps the band I play with never does any more than play a few private parties - I can still have fun.  I can still dig it.  Its still real, albeit on a different scale.  To think that life is without any limits would make that experience worse, I would not be enjoying, I would only be projecting, and, in that, missing the real important part, that which I share with Jackie, Phil, Carlos, and Larry - the joy of making music with my friends for other friends.

So, there is a third way (and a fourth, fifth and on, and on, and on) and for me that entails a bit of realism injected into the dream.  And more than a dollop of acceptance too.  So, I may not be as good as those guys, I have been able to work closely with them, and for a whole lot of people, that in and of itself should have been enough, and I should rejoice and be glad in it.  And I am, and I do. 

And realism sees that not all people are savages, but any level of introspection will tell each and every one of us that it lays not all that far under the surface, and, that there are very real people in the world who wear it on their sleeves and perhaps one ought not cross paths with them unless prepared - and best if we not do it at all. 

[SarahFaceDoom]

What were you wanting to discuss?  I didn't see what you originally wrote.

Hi Sarah, (nice to hear from you) well, i was just yapping about trying to find the essential positive elements of religion and magic without ever using one metaphysical or supernatural term. i had been focusing in working with the core personality, sometimes called the inner self (though i shy away from that term too, because in some Eastern religions, there are many metaphysical aspects associated with that).

unfortunately, of course, for many people, the core personality is itself a somewhat mythical beast. i try explaining what i mean, and people usually either scoff or scratch their heads. based on little more than my own experiences, i can only say that it does exist, and people apparently have no more reason to believe me than i have to believe them, when they start talking about a metaphysical concept.

anyway, that was about it, though i stated it a bit less cautiously, and accidentally ruffled some feathers

-Ellie
   

Hmmm. Well it's generally said that the goal of a lot of magic is the attainment of self-understanding, higher self, core self.  At the end of the day magic is just words.  You don't even have to believe in magic to use it.  It can be as fantastical or as mundane as it works for you to use.

For me I use magic as a metaphor to manipulate, find, and deal with inner consciousnesses, and to become better at externalizing my internal will(or even just becoming more in tune with what my desires are and why they are that way).  I am an artist, so magic is very useful for me because it's built around words and trance states, which is what writing is built around.  So it's very easy for me to write fiction in one hand, and then step over and do an evocation ceremony and talk with a god in the other.  Now are these beings I summon real?  I don't think that's the right question.  They are real to the extent that I bring them out and visualize them there in front of me, and they have personalities and things and I an learn from them.  But in essence what I'm dealing with in that situation are projected aspects of myself.  Like say I work with a war god or something, over time those aspects of my personality are going to strengthen and change, and it's just because I'm putting an emphasis on that part of me.

Now some people embrace the spiritual aspects wholly and completely.  While others do the same thing with science.  I don't think either is right or wrong.  They just are.  People have different ways of approaching the same problems that plague us all.  I do think magic can be much more approachable than say physics for a lot of people.  Money has stratified education such that you have to be so focused in one science or subject to be able to use it at all well, that you become somewhat inept in others.  Magic because of the Internet is more available, and because it is older, in some ways it's been more paired down and is in many ways easier to do and approach.  Ideally you would create your own magic out of the things which you are best at, and what makes the most sense for you.

[VeryGnawty]

Now are these beings I summon real?  I don't think that's the right question.

"Real" is a very poor descriptor for the way the world works.  War of the Worlds isn't real, but that didn't stop the initial radio broadcast causing mass hysteria and panic when people couldn't tell the difference between a radio show, and an alien invasion.  Many religions can't be shown to be true, but that doesn't stop religion from being one of the primary shaping forces of people's lives and culture.

Instead of asking whether something is real, it is better to ask how does it affect someone's life?  For example, I may hold a conversation with a formless being from the 23rd plane of existence.  It's rather irrelevant whether or not beings from the 23rd plane of existence actually exist.  What is important, is what I do with the information I learned in my travel, whether it is a figment of my imagination or not.

Things don't have to be real to have real effects.  In fact, most of what people believe isn't real.  But it is real in the way it affects their thinking and behavior.

[Bethany W]

Ive been practicing magick for about 10 years. Id say the majority of magicks power is in the minds of the people. It mainly serves as an aid and a visualisation to which I can transmute change into the physical realm. 

Here is how magick works explained simply:
You believe > They Believe > Change happens

Their belief is entirely subconscious of course.

Scrying and divination is easy if you know how to meditate, so is reading minds.

I believed someone put a curse on me years ago and as soon as I did a ritual to dispel it I no longer had the problem that I thought the curse was causing. Yes, it mightve been psychological, but if it works it works.

[Kimberly]

Please pull the other one ......

I've never figured the attraction between TS and this "cra*p" mysticism ....

Just love someone to explain ...  ...

Laura

If I may take a stab at an answer, the transsexual we are already keenly aware that what is commonly known and accepted isn't necessarily true.


As for magic by whatever name, well, personally I tend to consider it synonymous with energy work. Personally I have had some pretty inexplicable things happen in my life, often enough that chance seems improbable. So in essence I am really keen on the thought that .... well, a line from William Shakespeare's Hamlet(Act 1. Scene V) sums it up nicely, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Personally I have found this notion to be exceptionally true again and again and again.  Simply, as best as I can (in)humanly tell, truth is stranger than fiction. (That is saying something!) ... But meh, just my words, sand in the wind...

[VeryGnawty]

Try as you might, or as I might - and all the practice, all the workouts (or even magic) and neither of us are ever going to be Mike Jordan or Tiger Woods.  OK, I can live with that.  I can live with all the study under the best teachers and I was not going to be Einstein, but with work I could begin to glimpse what he was saying, and that ain't bad.

I disagree.

If I worked really hard at it, I probably could beat Tiger Woods.  But why would I want to?  Why would I want to spend all that time when there is already a Tiger Woods who I have no need to compete with?

Everyone is their own genius, just in a different way.  I am every bit the intellect that Einstein was, it's just that my concern is not over space or time, but on other things instead.  I know things which he most certainly didn't, and he knew things which I haven't completely pieced together.

But that's OK, too.  The fact is, I have no desire to spend half a lifetime studying the intricacies of space and time.  I am much more interested in the body, and what affects it.  And if that is the only legacy I leave behind, then I have already done more than most people.

To me, magick is the same way.  Either you know it, or you don't.  People who don't believe it or have no interest in it will certainly never be able to use it anymore than they will be the next Einstein or Hawking.  But there are a select few who are drawn to it, and after years of practice and research they may make groundbreaking discoveries about how the universe works.  And they are every bit as genius as Nobel or Newton.  In fact, Newton spent most of his time in "occult" studies, much to the dismay of the scientific community.

But nobody is less.  I respect metaphysical investigators like Wattles just as much as Einstein, or physical explorers such as David Belle.  Each of these people have come across knowledge which is equally groundbreaking.  It is merely groundbreaking in a different way.  If you think you can't be as good as Einstein because you don't understand how a black hole works, you are selling yourself short.

I also agree with Kimberly.  Truth is much stranger than fiction.  Perhaps that's why only strange and unusual people seem to uncover the truth.  Many of history's great inventors and discoverers were a little "eccentric" to say the least.  Magicians are often the crackpots of the lot.  Personally, I'd rather hang out with someone who's a little off their rocker.  Because chances are, they are going to be the next Einstein.

[cindybc]

Truth is much stranger than fiction.  Perhaps that's why only strange and unusual people seem to uncover the truth.  Many of history's great inventors and discoverers were a little "eccentric" to say the least.  Magicians are often the crackpots of the lot.  Personally, I'd rather hang out with someone who's a little off their rocker.  Because chances are, they are going to be the next Einstein.

"Hee, hee, hee." I think I love you, VeryGnawty, sweets, like minds eh? Well I certainly do agree on the greater part of what you have posted, especially on the part that we are unique and in many ways quite possibly at the same level and in some instances maybe even beyond the knowing of Einstein and Newton.

But since we are only human consistency in any one observation, these observations will differ and vary in detail and content with each individual. Each interpreting it through their own rational mental processes at different levels of development in perceptual consciousness. I can read Einsteins formulas and the Unified Theory of All Things, but just don't ask me to do the math.

Taking the Unified Theory of All Things + Einstein's Theory of the Infinite Potentialities, I would have to admit that this leaves little doubt that anything is possible, so why not majick? We are the ones that put limits, road blocks, doubt, deception and even deliberate lies as stumbling blocks to keep ourselves confused and lost and as a result, we all come short of finding the way to our full potentials.

As for what does spirituality and transsexuals got to do with the price of tea in China? I have been pondering the same thing, probably since the day I discovered what the word "transsexual" meant and the why question. Below is an excerpt from the Empaths and Empathy thread with my thoughts on the subject:

As for the spiritual part, it is what you feel in your heart. I believe that right there, there is certainly a correlation between empathics and trans folks. Both are sensitive and very easily swayed by the energy around them. The problem is that these sensitivities and overconfidence can also bring disaster upon those who have them as part of their characteristics. Some get scared of the energy around them so they retreat into themselves, not allowing their true selves to come out for fear of repercussions.

From my own observations of empathic people and those in the trans comunity we care and try to be supportive for one another other. Many of us even seek a career in social work of one type or another, whether that be in the field of nursing and even getting into careers such as psychologist and therapist counselors or many other types of administrative work or various other types of public service work. A good many come back to work with the trans comunity,

Most I have known are caring individuals, sometimes even more caring for those in need more than we do about ourselves. The other person comes first when we have these strong urges or need to be there in whatever capacity for those in need.

This is why you will find many empaths and sensitives on different boards like this and in real life as well.  Well this is my observation and maybe there is a little biased in my judgment here, being both an empath and trans  nevertheless this is what I have concluded. This is the correlation between empaths and transsexuals which I was hoping to make, where often one and the other appear to have similar qualities in character and personality and what seems to drive both from within in many aspects as I have listed above.

These people work to help others in any manner by supporting other fellow humans that are in need, so to speak, and developing sensitivities that are beyond the norm. For myself, this has been the biggest burn in my life. A burn which has kept me going to this point and to actually be grateful and humbled for the opportunity to play my part in them.

I just feel there is no better way of satisfying what is in my heart. A proud, aging lady doing the best she can to ease the pain of others. who ties her hair back and goes to work without a second thought.

Cindy     

[julogden]

Well, there are three types of magic in the world, as I see it.  1. Pull-a-rabbit-out-of-a-hat magic. This is the sort of magic Harry Houdini did and David Copperfield does. This is the illusionary, trickery form of magic.  2. Turn-a-prince-into-a-frog magic. This is the stuff of fairy tales, the sort of thing make-believe evil queens and witches (note the lowercase W) do . This is the storybook, fiction magic. 3. Ritual religious magic. This type of magic is another form of prayer, this is what Wiccans/Witches (capital W here, there is a difference from "witch") and other Pagans do. This magic is as real as Christians saying rosary or Jews saying kiddish.

Hi Pia,

While I'm not a practicing Wiccan, I do Wicca and paganism intriguing and have done quite a bit of reading on the subject. I've come to the same conclusion as you, magick is to Wicca what prayer is to other religions, from what I can see.

Just a different name for essentially the same thing, only in Wicca, there is no priest, rabbi or minister performing magickal ceremonies,  practitioners take on the role of priest/ess, performing the rituals themselves.

My opinion anyway.

Carol

[Mazarine_Sky]

I haven't read the entire topic yet, but as a practicing Hermetic Magician, you should know that Wicca does not equal magic, and I would say from my own personal experience, it's not the best means to practice Magic in the first place.
That said, allow me to direct you to an article that could prove to be very insightful for you-
http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=12373.0

[justme303]

I was raised Jehovahs wittness and was taught that any form of witchcraft was the work of satan, and completely evil.

I read a post on here somewhere pg 1 i think, saying that wicca was the practise of selfish magic, or something to that extent.

I just want to know how evil it can be when it teaches, and i quote from the wiccan reade

'Live an let live
fairly take and fairly give...'

And something about all energy you put out into the universe comming back to you three fold, so cursing someone would no doubt be rather hazardous
Needless to say i'm not a jehovahs wittness anymore, im not a wiccan either, though i have done the odd healing spell