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Transsexual gender identity and sexuality in different cultural constructions

Started by Hypatia, April 30, 2008, 07:41:02 PM

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Shana A

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 05, 2008, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: redfish on May 04, 2008, 10:01:56 PM
You should probably pick up The Transgender Studies Reader - there's a lot of articles about transsexuality and cultures in there.

Thank you!  I have added The Transgender Studies Reader by Susan Stryker to my reading list.

Thanks, I'm adding this to my shopping list too. A couple of other books worth reading for perspective on trans people in other cultures and times are Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors, Will Roscoe's The Zuni Man-Woman, and Serena Nanda's Neither Man nor Woman, The Hijras of India.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Elincubus

Quote from: Lisbeth on May 04, 2008, 07:33:26 PM
Please, do not confuse what a culture says and accepts about gender varient people with what those people themselves feel.  There have been people who have quietly lived as the opposite gender under the radar of their society since the beginning of time.
That's not what I meant. I just meant that is nearly impossible to tell how a certain person felt about their gender, espicially because they had no or different labels for gender identities.
There definitely have been a lot of transexuals during whole history, but if we know for example that a certain woman choose to live as male we do not know if she really felt male, if she was a lesbian, if she wanted the privilegs that were reserved for men only or what ever other reason there could have been.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Elincubus on May 05, 2008, 09:36:36 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on May 04, 2008, 07:33:26 PM
Please, do not confuse what a culture says and accepts about gender varient people with what those people themselves feel.  There have been people who have quietly lived as the opposite gender under the radar of their society since the beginning of time.
That's not what I meant. I just meant that is nearly impossible to tell how a certain person felt about their gender, espicially because they had no or different labels for gender identities.
There definitely have been a lot of transexuals during whole history, but if we know for example that a certain woman choose to live as male we do not know if she really felt male, if she was a lesbian, if she wanted the privilegs that were reserved for men only or what ever other reason there could have been.

You are absolutely right.  When we substitute labels for actually listening to people we lose a great deal of understanding.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Hypatia

The book Imagining Transgender: An Ethnography of a Category by David Valentine looks at the question of how this phenomenon, that we call transgender, is understood by other cultures.
QuoteDavid Valentine conducted ethnographic research among mostly male-to-female transgender-identified people at drag balls, support groups, cross-dresser organizations, clinics, bars, and clubs. However, he found that many of those labeled "transgender" by activists did not know the term or resisted its use. Instead, they self-identified as "gay," a category of sexual rather than gendered identity and one rejected in turn by the activists who claimed these subjects as transgender. Valentine analyzes the reasons for and potential consequences of this difference, and how social theory is implicated in it.

Valentine argues that "transgender" has been adopted so rapidly in the contemporary United States because it clarifies a model of gender and sexuality that has been gaining traction within feminism, psychiatry, and mainstream gay and lesbian politics since the 1970s: a paradigm in which gender and sexuality are distinct arenas of human experience. This distinction and the identity categories based on it erase the experiences of some gender-variant people—particularly poor persons of color—who conceive of gender and sexuality in other terms.
This is the sort of thing I was talking about. It casts into doubt whether people born and raised in such cultures-- who we would call transgender-- think of themselves as such.

Research like this indicates that the gender status of trans people is highly dependent on social construction. Our gender as transsexual men or women would not have been a given in a culture that constructed it differently. This has been hard for me to accept, because I feel so strongly that my own womanhood is innate and definite. After all, I had to fight against my family's insistence that I'm male, my upbringing in a social context that never admitted any other construction to my gender, but from within myself I somehow asserted my womanhood. How is it that trans people in other cultures than my own don't affirm gender the way we do here?

I had a discussion with my friend who is an American LGBT activist of Iranian origin. I mentioned the recent movie Be Like Others about people in Iran who are getting SRS in record numbers. There has been alarm in the Western LGBT world because many gay and lesbian Iranians feel pressured to get sex changes in order to become heterosexual. My friend insisted that the issues in that cultural context are different from what we would think: in Iran they don't separate gender identity from sexual orientation the way we do. She said in Iran all gay people are seen as inherently gender-variant, because sexual orientation is encoded as essential to the definition of gender, therefore what we call transgender is seen in Iran as an integral part of the same phenomenon as homosexuality. Or something like that, it wasn't entirely clear to me because it's so alien to how my mind constructs gender and sexuality. Valentine's research likewise says in the cultures he studied how gender is subsumed into sexuality.

I came of age in a culture informed by the above-mentioned paradigm from "feminism, psychiatry, and mainstream gay and lesbian politics." With my privileged white middle-class upbringing, I was given a college education and encouraged to read widely. I didn't develop any understanding of my true gender identity until after I'd come in contact with the dissemination of such modern paradigms in my culture. I just wonder how this paradigm arose in the first place; it's been so influential in making us who we are. It certainly isn't universal.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Sarah Dreams

I consider transsexualism to be transitory state just as the name suggests. Once the transition is complete, the goal is reached and you are a woman. This is why I subscribe to the stealth philosophy. Why continue to identify as transsexual when you always said you identified as female? If you get clocked, well, thats another thing. But my goal is to be as much a woman as I can, not to be a transsexual as that is a temporary state on the way to the final goal.

Other cultures will see you as what you tell them you are and as how you act. So, if you tell them you are female and act that way, there is no problem with culture beyond the backwards treatment of women in some cultures on this planet.
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Shana A

Quote from: Hypatia on October 11, 2008, 10:33:42 AM
This is the sort of thing I was talking about. It casts into doubt whether people born and raised in such cultures-- who we would call transgender-- think of themselves as such.

Research like this indicates that the gender status of trans people is highly dependent on social construction. Our gender as transsexual men or women would not have been a given in a culture that constructed it differently.

I agree. I've also read a lot of books in the pursuit to understanding my gender journey. While I know it's different for each of us and I believe it's easier for those who can fit easily into the binary, to me the view of various cultures, including the Indian hijra or Native American two spirits, has greatly informed my self perception as third or neither binary gender. That said, I also had considerable confusion about this and for a long time actually thought of myself as gay, because of my inclination towards transgender expression.

Zythyra
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Hypatia

Likewise, I would feel threatened if the Hindu definition of gender were to be imposed on me, if I were told I could not be a woman but had to be relegated to the "third gender" of "neither man nor woman." I think individuals like yourself for whom that model works should have the freedom to apply it to yourselves and you should not be forced into the binary against your will-- but I will fight to the death to stop that "third gender" model from being imposed on all transsexuals the way it is in India. It would negate our manhood and our womanhood, as the case may be, and that is unacceptable.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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Northern Jane

Quote from: Hypatia on April 30, 2008, 07:41:02 PMFor example, the concept that a transsexual woman can be lesbian is hard for many people to grasp intuitively.

When I first woke up in bed with another woman (alcohol was involved!) I had trouble coming to terms with it!!!! After all I had been through, I ended up with a woman??!!

I had always considered myself 100% straight - I was attracted to guys from puberty onward and having "a normal relationship" was VERY important to me. In all the time I fought for medial treatment, I was very careful to play down the sexual attraction thing to avoid being labeled Gay, which would have muddied the waters in trying to have transsexualism understood. I can certainly understand why a straight non-TG person would have trouble with that!

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Hypatia

Really? Could you explain it for us? Because I don't understand it at all.
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
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tekla

Reading Foucault probably also wouldn't be such a terrible idea,

Oh no, not Foucault, who is not only totally unreadable in English (perhaps this works in the original French, though I doubt it) but the kind of Euro thought tossed out after the War in order to prove Europe was still the intellectual center of the universe.  It failed.

Few things in my life did I hate like reading Foucault, except for his buddy Jacques Derrida.  The Archaeology of Knowledge is just flat out wrong in its assertion that discursive formations exist in the way he wants to see them, and have the power he gives to them.  Iccky.

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Sarah Dreams

I love that... Beautiful, intelligent take on the work and then .. "Iccky"  :laugh:
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