How do you know you're not a woman?

[Lokaeign]

Seems like if I were a woman then when I imagine what it would be like to be and live as a woman it would feel "right" and it does not.

That makes sense to me.  TBH this seems like a bit of a funny (though interesting) question--sort of like running up to random MI people and saying "hey, dude, how do you know you're not a woman?"

I think male-assigned androgynes might go for "feminine" signifiers simply because in our culture, male is kind of the default.  Unless you're flagging otherwise, you are assumed to be male.  Even with things as simple as a cartoon character, the female version has something added--like Minnie Mouse or Ms. Pac-Man with their bows and eyelashes.  People wearing clothes that could be described as androgynous will often get read as male IRL--happens to 3rd-gendered female-bodied friends of mine all the time (although admittedly not to a bloated oestragen catastrophe like me).

I also think that if you're androgynous it's natural to want to "play against type" genderwise, to offset your assigned gender with the signifiers of another gender.  Hence dresses on male-assigned and suits on female-assigned 3rdies.

[Seshatneferw]

Alright, settle down. No stampedes over Nero, please.

Not even a small one?

How do you know you're not just a non-op transsexual?

I don't -- and if you look at my profile, I'm listed as both. So there. 

The thing is, for me being a transsexual (in remission) is about sex: I want a female body (and have wanted one for about a third of a century, even if I'm pretty sure I can live without making too many modifications to what I have). Being androgyne, on the other hand, is about gender: I still haven't understood why men and women should be segregated for things not immediately related to anatomical sex. I don't want to be treated as 'a man' or as 'a woman', I just want to be me.

In some -- quite real -- sense I consider myself a genderqueer woman who happens to have been born with a male body.

Pleeeeease don't kick me out of the forest. 

No, we'll do something much worse: let you stay.  >

  Nfr

[Jaimey]

hmm...well, as a female bodied person, i know i'm not a man.  i'm not sure how i know.  i just know.  but i'm not a woman either.  i think i learned what i am by basically learning what i am not mostly from the way people treat me.  men don't see a woman and women don't see a woman, so I can't be a woman.  but even more than not seeing me as a woman, they certainly don't see me as a man.  i'm just something else entirely.

i feel like a boy. not a man, not a woman, a boy.  i think that has a lot to do with the pre-gendered thing.  life before puberty was better than life afterwards.  there was less difference between the two binary genders then.  we were just kids playing together and your bits didn't matter.

i didn't know there was a difference other than the bits until i was an adult.  i think most people just see me as some sort of alien.  i'm weird, interesting, someone to be studied from a safe distance, not to be close to, for fear of exposure to my weirdness or something. 

  not sure that makes any sense.

[Simone Louise]

Things were a little quiet here recently, so I was roaming Susan's other forums. I came across a discussion in which people were writing that they should not be lumped with androgynes. Transsexuals and those no longer transsexuals, but now simply women, accepted the binary nature of gender, and merely to be themselves, which required being on the other side of the boundary. Androgynes, on the other hand, choose to a lifestyle that violates the culturally accepted gender norms.

Jaimey, your comments on feeling pre-gendered, and on the times when we were "just kids playing together" struck a chord with me. That is who we are. We didn't choose to be aliens any more than transsexuals choose to change their sex. Gender stereotypes are beside the point; we just want to be who we are, to stop faking. We want to mix with friends, irrespective of our "bits".

One of the transsexuals wrote of relating to a spouse as a best friend--me, too. This person continued: " I'd look at girls and think 'I want to BE her' not 'I want her.'" Again, me too. I've told my wife I want to be just like her. But as soon as I say that, I know I am not her. I still just want to play without the bits mattering (too bad TS people don't want to play with me). How I know is a question for an epistemologist.

Oh my, look at the time,
S

[Kinkly]

I think most people just see me as some sort of alien.  i'm weird, interesting, someone to be studied from a safe distance, not to be close to, for fear of exposure to my weirdness or something. 

  not sure that makes any sense.

This makes perfect sense for a plutonein like me, when all the marshins are doing there thing and all the Venisions are doing theres.
I think most people believe I'm from Mars but I'm from Pluto Damit

[Lokaeign]

But whose planet is it anyway?  Don't see why we shouldn't be Earthlings too... part of the human condition, just a different intersection on the Venn diagram...

Everything is better with Venn diagrams.  'Strue.

[Caroline]

How do you know you're not a woman?

After going a fair way towards medically and socially transitioning towards female I can conclusively say that's not me.  Obviously, shoehorning myself into the male box never worked either.  Discovering a third option and being very comfortable there, there's no way in hell I'm either of the binary options.

[RebeccaFog]

Binary is a drink that doesn't satisfy.

[Caroline]

Binary is a drink that doesn't satisfy.

It's made out of 99% Kool-Aid isn't it?

[Shana A]

Binary is a drink that doesn't satisfy.

It's made out of 99% Kool-Aid isn't it?

110% kool-aid and artificial sweeteners... none for me thanks 

Z

[Lokaeign]

It's made out of 99% Kool-Aid isn't it?

I was going to make a Jonestown joke, but the punch line was too long.

[RebeccaFog]

Binary is a drink that doesn't satisfy.

It's made out of 99% Kool-Aid isn't it?

Yuck.

I hear they had a killer Kool-Aid at Jonestown.  I would prefer the electric Kool-Aid.

[Shana A]

I hear they had a killer Kool-Aid at Jonestown.  I would prefer the electric Kool-Aid.

The electric kool aid (acid test) was pretty potent too... 

Great book

Z

[RebeccaFog]

I wish I was electrified right now.

[Shana A]

110 or 220?

Or perhaps solar powered might be best 

Z

[Kinkly]

Binary is a drink that doesn't satisfy.

I'll drink to that
but i'll mix my own
no kool-aid thnX

[Jaimey]

we don't drink the kool aid.  we're too awesome for kool aid.