In all seriousness

[Shana A]

Re: topic https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36070.0.html and others, a couple of us have been talking about some issues on the androgyne forum.

I have no problem with people being humorous and veering off topic occasionally, obviously people need an outlet to blow off steam sometimes. I've been just as guilty of doing this. I believe that in our attempts to understand ourselves and others, we tend to look for similarities, shared traits and feelings about being androgyne. The downside of this can be, if someone doesn't share these traits or feelings, they might not feel that they are supported in their difference. Sie might even decide that this forum isn't for hir, and that's a shame. There really aren't many places for us on the internet.

Being androgyne isn't always a laughing matter. It's been a struggle for me to learn who I am and how to live in the world. Ultimately, this forum is about support, and the androgyne section should operate in such a way to meet those needs. We are a diverse community, there are many unique ways to be androgyne. Let's work together to create a space in which it's safe and supportive for everyone to explore who they are on the gender continuum.

Zythyra

[Kinkly]

I totally agree  this it is an important that androgyne people determine who they are knowing. no 2 androgyne people are the same or have the same gender identity I dislike blanket statement like androgyne people people don't suffer gender disphoria (gender depression)or that we are all happy living in the middle maybe the forum should be called "non binary gender variant" if it was such a mouthful, everybody's story is different as much as i would like to meet someone that was going through the same as me exactly I know that wont happen but i have little bits in common with lots of people then I can feel suported and not so lonely isn't that what this site is all about?
also there is no such thing as a true androgyne

[Shana A]

I totally agree  this it is an important that androgyne people determine who they are knowing. no 2 androgyne people are the same or have the same gender identity I dislike blanket statement like androgyne people people don't suffer gender disphoria (gender depression)or that we are all happy living in the middle maybe the forum should be called "non binary gender variant" if it was such a mouthful, everybody's story is different as much as i would like to meet someone that was going through the same as me exactly I know that wont happen but i have little bits in common with lots of people then I can feel suported and not so lonely isn't that what this site is all about?
also there is no such thing as a true androgyne

I've also wondered about the name of our forum, I personally like "non binary gender variant", however I'm not sure if everyone would feel included under that umbrella, for example bigender or two spirit people.

Zythyra

[const]

God I wish I actually had something productive to add. I guess I'm just a dummy. I believe that tolerance should be definitely emphasized over that belief that just because this person doesn't have my view then that person isn't this or that. Really nice post.

[Laurry]

The fact that there are so many types of gender variant people on this forum has, for me, been its strength.  It is also what keeps me coming back.  I have learned so much about other NBGVs.  I find many similarities with some forum members, and few with others, but the one thing we all have in common is the fact that we don't identify as only male or female. 

(Full disclosure regulations require that I also acknowledge that several of the posts in this forum are made by binary-gendered people, but we have granted them "Honorary Non-Binary Gender" status and they are very much part of our family...umm, the certificates are in the mail??)

Regardless of whether my struggles are the same as other folks, I know that everyone is trying to find their way outside the gender norms.  I believe my role, as part of this family, is to always be supportive, try my best to understand other viewpoints and positions, and share my feelings and struggles in the hope that others will realize they are not alone.  (And make smart-aleck comments wherever possible)  Hopefully, the majority of the members find their roles to be similar.

Thanks Z for reminding us of what is really important.  The fact that I care so much for people I have not, and may never, meet demonstrates the quality of people who call Susan's Place home.

Love......L





 

[Casey]

The downside of this can be, if someone doesn't share these traits or feelings, they might not feel that they are supported in their difference.

I've been here scattershot lately. Have we been having problems with this lately? If so, how do we make sure it isn't a problem?

Personally I find it interesting when someone else has a different viewpoint on something. I hope I've expressed that adequately and shown that I'm supportive of all viewpoints.

[Jaimey]

Since I'm the cause of a lot of this, here's my two cents:

1.) humor is a way to deal.  I can't be serious all the time.  I have to be serious at work, at home, and every where else.  So sorry if I make a joke on here and we get off subject.  But sometimes you just need to laugh and let off some steam.

2.) I would say don't read into what people are saying.  When one of us makes a comment or statement about how androgynes are alike in some ways, we aren't trying to make rules for being androgyne.  Either we just want to be like someone else or we're just trying to understand ourselves.  I can only really think of one person on this forum who does try to define the "true androgyne" and I think most of us have learned to ignore that person's comments when they go that direction.

But yeah, DON'T READ INTO IT.  The drama I've gotten caught up in because people have read into something instead of actually hearing what was said...I can't even tell you.

I think we're just trying to figure ourselves out.  Again, I really don't know anyone who is trying to define the "true androgyne".  The things I say and that others say are just ideas.  I don't see anything wrong with putting ideas out there.  And there's certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing.  In fact, disagreement is great.  It creates more ideas!

But I think we also have a problem with taking things too seriously sometimes or taking things personally that were never meant to be taken that way.  So we should be careful of that too. 

[Shana A]

I can only really think of one person on this forum who does try to define the "true androgyne" and I think most of us have learned to ignore that person's comments when they go that direction.

Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves... 

I want to clarify that I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular. I do want to make sure that we don't scare off new people. I sometimes try to imagine what it must feel like for some poor lonely androgyne who has just found us, desperately needing support and community, and they start reading about threadjacking, unicorns, etc... and then run away....

Also, I know that we've lost some people who used to post here, who didn't feel included in the site's definitions of androgyne. I too enjoy reading posts from people who are different from myself, and one of the most amazing aspects of androgynes is the diversity of what that means to each of us. I'm going to keep listening and learning. Everyone's stories help me better understand myself too.

Hugs!!

Zythyra

[sd]

I think there has been a lack of seriousness, it has seemed more like a party lately.

No one in particular is to blame, I think it was a combination of things and people. I have noticed my forums run in phases depending on weather and time of year, I doubt this place is any different.

[Kinkly]

I think we're just trying to figure ourselves out.  Again, I really don't know anyone who is trying to define the "true androgyne".  The things I say and that others say are just ideas.  I don't see anything wrong with putting ideas out there.  And there's certainly nothing wrong with disagreeing.  In fact, disagreement is great.  It creates more ideas!

I confess "true androgyne"  isn't necessarily the words that people have used just the vibe i get from some posts
I've seen posts where people who say something is or isn't that way as fact when its only personal opinion
and posts from new people seeking answers with wording is this normal?/ is it wrong to? when people need to let them know in a serious way that its ok if no one feels that way we are all different when someone answers a serious question in joke form the person may feel hurt that no one takes them seriously.  When humorous responses gather more response that the question this can turn people off - I'm not like that i'm leaving"  this is semi hypothetical I can see how this would effect some people i haven't been here long enough to see someone ask lots of questions then disappear

[Nero]

I think we're jumping the gun here. I haven't seen any posts trying to lay down the law as to what androgyne is. Or any that even so much as hinted at any 'true androgyne' concept.
Yes, a good number left a while back but it was my understanding that was due to the outcome of several polls on the legitimacy of androgyne as an identity among similar happenings at that time.

Could this section stand a bit more seriousness? Sure. But I doubt someone's going to feel this place is unsafe just cause of a few jokes.

And as Jaimey mentioned, looking for similarities runs rampant in every trans community. But I haven't seen any lists and rules and the like which is all over the other boards.

So, other than we should make more of an effort to be serious when the topic calls for it, I'm not seeing a problem.

[Caroline]

I don't think I can really restate my feelings on this any better than what JC and I said here: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,36070.msg240846.html#msg240846

Just because we're not directly pointing the finger at people and saying 'you're not an androgyne, GTFO' doesn't make it ok.  A forum full of threads drawing conclusions about what 'androgynes do' or what 'androgynes like' infers enough that direct accusation isn't necessary.

[sd]

I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

If anything were to make me consider leaving here or stop me as a new member from signing up, this thread would rank near the top. Please, everyone just take a step back and look around, all of this finger pointing and complaining is not doing any good. While none of you may have any hostile intent to what you have written, it reads like there is a lot of anger and problems amongst our little community.

I am going to bow out of it at this point (gracefully I hope).

[Jaycie]

I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

If anything were to make me consider leaving here or stop me as a new member from signing up, this thread would rank near the top. Please, everyone just take a step back and look around, all of this finger pointing and complaining is not doing any good. While none of you may have any hostile intent to what you have written, it reads like there is a lot of anger and problems amongst our little community.

I am going to bow out of it at this point (gracefully I hope).

I think i would have to respectfully disagree with the assessment that this is anywhere near the 'worst' thread that has appeared in this forum. A thread that brings to light issues that exist and have gone unnoticed it not a bad thing by any means in my opinion. If concerns are never voiced then things never change and i'd go as far as confirming that there are problems and there is some anger over said problems in this 'community' that have been too silent and overlooked.

Looking over the tops of the rose-colored glasses may be at times unpleasant and difficult but it still needs to be done from time to time. And as such,  i would personally say that this is one of the better threads i've seen come about here, not the worst. 

[Nero]

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

[Jaycie]

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

I honestly don't think there would be as many commonalities as one might think. Especially if some things that are taken for granted by a large portion of the population are actually delved into and whittled down to their component parts.

What commonalities do transsexual-identified people even really have? Dysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't. Some like coffee, some don't. I can understand the need to be part of a larger group, to feel that one belongs to something larger than themselves. But to define things by commonalities that aren't so common that also serve to shut others out when they find that they don't fit those commonalities? I'm not quite sure that that is the right path to take.

When you take people who have a 'non-binary' identification and use a term to refer that group as a whole isn't that enough of a distinction? Within that group there are other more specifics but still they refer to identifications not arbitrary traits and such. That, i think is what the better part of this is about.

[Nero]

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

I honestly don't think there would be as many commonalities as one might think. Especially if some things that are taken for granted by a large portion of the population are actually delved into and whittled down to their component parts.

What commonalities do transsexual-identified people even really have? Dysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't. Some like coffee, some don't. I can understand the need to be part of a larger group, to feel that one belongs to something larger than themselves. But to define things by commonalities that aren't so common that also serve to shut others out when they find that they don't fit those commonalities? I'm not quite sure that that is the right path to take.

When you take people who have a 'non-binary' identification and use a term to refer that group as a whole isn't that enough of a distinction? Within that group there are other more specifics but still they refer to identifications not arbitrary traits and such. That, i think is what the better part of this is about.

Hmm... Well if that's the point here, I can refrain from making blanket statements about any group in the future as I don't like blanket statements either.
But this thread came off as kind of an accusation, saying in not so many words 'some here are joking around too much and being non-inclusive and ruining the forum.' Which I don't believe any here had any intentions of hurting anyone or making anyone feel unwelcome.

But if the point of this discussion is just to ask that we not make blanket statements about the androgyne gender or joke around on threads that don't call for it - that's cool. I don't think anyone would have a problem complying with that.

[Kinkly]

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.
Maybe in threads about androgyne commonalities, posters could put YMMV or something.

We are all Human
we know there is something different about us
we don't fit in Male or female box clearly
what does YMMV mean

[Jaimey]

I'm confused because I don't see a lot of things that are being mentioned here actually in the androgyne forum. 

Dysphoria levels differ. Physical requirements to resolve said dysphoria differ. Likes differ. Dislikes differ. Sexualities differ. Some are suicidal,  some aren't.

I haven't seen anything that tries to define androgyne in black and white terms like that.  When we talk about traits that we think might be androgyne, those are very laid back discussions.  And they are open ended.  We never come to a conclusion.  We just discuss.  And there are always people who say, "that's not me," and everyone says, "that's cool.  i'm not like this," and again, we're all, "that's cool too."

I also think that the humor we use is actually more likely to attract and KEEP someone than tick them off.  I think our forum is extremely approachable.  It's not really itimidating.  The only times I've known people to leave are because of arguments usually over semantics.  And I think we all know what happens to threads where "what is an androgyne" comes up anyway.  If a humorous turn in a thread bothers you, say something, but I don't think it's a good idea to say that someone 'might' be offended.  If you've been turned off by it, then you can say that.  But it's never a good idea to speak for the whole, right?  That's what this is about anyway...I'm just making a point, by the way.  I just think it's unproductive to talk about 'might have' and 'may'.  If something has been said that bothers YOU, speak up.  It will be taken care of.

I really just don't see it.  I don't think that anyone on here is doing anything that would make someone feel excluded.  But that's just me.

Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves... 

I'll never tell...

[Shana A]

I think this could quite possibly be the worst thread that has ever graced the androgyne forum.

Sorry SD, I'd hate to think I started the worst thread ever. I'm just trying to address below the surface issues that I was aware of. If we can deal with these, and more people are comfortable to be here, then hopefully it will be worth it in the long run.

But don't androgynes have some things in common? I mean, transsexuals do. But not everything of course.

I'm often amazed at the diversity within the gender variant community here. When bigender people were talking about their experiences, it was a complete eye opener, I'd never felt anything like them. Likewise, I've never felt what neutrois people say they feel. Various androgynes have expressed being a mix of genders, I feel that I'm not really either one.

I'm not even 100% sure that I'm androgyne, based on my occasional high levels of dysphora. Maybe I'm really non op, non hrt ts. Of course, I've heard numerous times that doesn't exist. So maybe safer to be an androgyne.

Now you're gonna have all of us each wondering if it's ourselves... 

I'll never tell...

Oh dear, it must be me... 

I really love all of you!

Zythyra