Why do you want...?

[Terra]

I meet with the Vice-president of the University on Thursday. She was very nice as we sat down and talked about some of the things I was having trouble with on campus. One of these was the bathroom situation, and some others were the name the professors would see. (Student employee info precedes registry info in the computer. i.e. I can't use my female name as long as I work for the university, until it gets changed of course)

Afterwards I realized she had asked a question that I had, at the time, not been able to fully answer. She asked me why that these things should be so important that the school should intervene. Especially in the case of the bathroom situation.

Now I understand that it is in reality a big deal to get official permission, especially in this state, to use the opposite sex bathroom on private grounds. But I feel my answer on my follow up visit to her in a week should be more like this.

"The reason it is so important is because of why it is important to transition. We can't just live as woman or men because society views our old bodies in such a way that that is impossible. So we try to change our bodies is such a way that it matches more our, and in a way society's, standards. Using the opposite sex bathroom is seen as a mile-mark kind of achievement. Same as being able to use ones name that fits his/her body.

Transsexualism to me is like a second puberty, with me moving on to be a normal ordinary (as possible) woman. So being forced to use only unisex bathrooms when I had been using the woman's all year is not only a regression, but feels like a limbo. I wish to live as ordinary a life as someone like me can get."

What do you think of my future response? What about the question itself?

[Ell]

personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.

-Ellie

[Kate]

personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone.

I agree...

Maybe something like, "I'm seeking to live as ordinary a life as possible, so using the opposite sex bathroom is as much a necessity as adopting a gender-appropriate name."

A "requirement" rather than a "goal" or milestone?

~Kate~

[Seshatneferw]

One thing perhaps worth a thought or two is that some therapists consider RLE (which in some cases is shorthand for 'living full-time before SRS') as a test of sorts, where you are to prove -- either to the therapist or to yourself -- that this is what you really want to do for the rest of your life. If that is the case, the test ought to be as fair as possible, and this includes being able to live consistently in your target gender, without having to revert in order to visit a bathroom or talk to a professor.

 Nfr

[Lisbeth]

personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.

-Ellie

I would point out that there is also a point when you must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not.  You can't avoid it simply out of fear.  There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you. 

My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.

[Terra]

personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.

-Ellie

I would point out that there is also a point when you must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not.  You can't avoid it simply out of fear.  There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you. 

My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.

Actually it was because of my female friends that I was using the woman's restroom myself. They did literally drag me into the bathroom. I guess I did take my passing for granted, and having this thrown in my face has shaken my self confidence somewhat.

Now it probably would be a very big shock to men for me to use their restroom. I made a joke of it at work and some of the guys almost flipped. They did not want a woman using the men's locker room. It also would put me in greater danger to do so as well, though from the waist up I think i'm rather decent. But for now i'm having to change in a unisex bathroom or at home, as I can't use either locker room, boss's orders.

So do you think this argument might be convincing to a University?

[Ell]

personally i don't think it's worth mentioning as a milestone. there will come a point when you simply cannot use the men's restroom. period. and there will be many points along the way, in the beginning, where you will not be at all welcome in the women's restroom.

-Ellie

I would point out that there is also a point when you must take using the women's restroom for granted, whether you are welcome or not.  You can't avoid it simply out of fear.  There is a simple rule: If you act like you belong where you are, nobody will question you. 

My dear, I really should have drug you into more restrooms when you were here.

Actually it was because of my female friends that I was using the woman's restroom myself. They did literally drag me into the bathroom. I guess I did take my passing for granted, and having this thrown in my face has shaken my self confidence somewhat.

Now it probably would be a very big shock to men for me to use their restroom. I made a joke of it at work and some of the guys almost flipped. They did not want a woman using the men's locker room. It also would put me in greater danger to do so as well, though from the waist up I think i'm rather decent. But for now i'm having to change in a unisex bathroom or at home, as I can't use either locker room, boss's orders.

So do you think this argument might be convincing to a University?

if you're already passing as a woman, i don't understand why the issue has even come up, unless the school has forbidden you to use gender-appropriate restrooms. have they? i think you definitely need to talk to other Trans women in your area to help you get past some of these hurdles.

and what is your gender therapist saying about all this? she should also be helping you with these things.

-Ell

[tekla]

She asked me why that these things should be so important that the school should intervene

Wow, spoken like a true bureaucrat, no wonder she is the VP.

[Terra]

if you're already passing as a woman, i don't understand why the issue has even come up, unless the school has forbidden you to use gender-appropriate restrooms. have they? i think you definitely need to talk to other Trans women in your area to help you get past some of these hurdles.

and what is your gender therapist saying about all this? she should also be helping you with these things.

-Ell

The issue came up after I reported that there was a rumor going around about me being a boy. That itself didn't bother me, but the 'someone' who was going to 'deal' with me was. After reporting this, all of the sudden I was barred from using the woman's locker room and restroom as there was an 'agreement' already that I was only going to use the unisex bathrooms.

Supposedly this agreement was made after a meeting between me and the student dean and related faculty. I recall that the agreement was to wait until we saw how well I was accepted and then return to the issue. But the dean and resident life faculty back up their story, and their 'memory' trumps mine.

The VP said she would look into it, and I hope that she is as nice and caring as everyone keep saying she is. She also said that even if the decision was against me, that it didn't necessarily need to be final. Then she gave me the standard "i'm impressed by your strength to make this decision and see it through." II hate canned responses like that.

As for my therapist, unfortunately since i'm not taking a summer course I really have no one to talk to but the consolers, who can't do much. This means ultimately i'm bouncing around docs at the moment.

[buttercup]

I'm sorry this is happening to you Angel.  When a rumour starts and makes its way to the authorities that can bar you, that is a shame.  Do you think this is the situation to ask for a 'carry letter' as mentioned in another thread? 

[Terra]

I'm sorry this is happening to you Angel.  When a rumour starts and makes its way to the authorities that can bar you, that is a shame.  Do you think this is the situation to ask for a 'carry letter' as mentioned in another thread? 

Far as I understand it, a carry letter is only as good as people are understanding about the situation. It holds no legal weight.

[Lisbeth]

Far as I understand it, a carry letter is only as good as people are understanding about the situation. It holds no legal weight.

You are correct.

[Terra]

Well things are getting complicated. For at least the rest of the summer i'm restricted to using the unisex restrooms. The decision was given to me by the VP that 'for the near future' this is how it should work.

Currently i'm extremely PO'd but trying to remain calm. The fact that she didn't seem to listen to my objections about the issue made it only worse. It didn't help that all of this was given over the phone.

So now i'm spending the majority of my summer days at a job that seems to be hell bent on denying my femininity. First it was the bathrooms, then the earrings, next the nail polish, and now the stone pendent I wear for religious reasons today. Never mind that i've seen other women wearing the very things i'm denied, and all i'm told when I point this out is that I must rat them out. Great, now i'm doing my boss's job.

Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?

Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?

[lady amarant]

Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?

Sic the Human-Rights-Council on them ... oh hang on. They'd probably side with the administration against you.

Seriously though, get some muscle behind your case. At the moment, you are just a lone voice dependant on their whims, basically. As soon as you get somebody official-sounding behind you, you are more able to negotiate from a position of strength.

Good luck Angel honey.

~Simone.

[sneakersjay]

Seriously though, get some muscle behind your case. At the moment, you are just a lone voice dependant on their whims, basically. As soon as you get somebody official-sounding behind you, you are more able to negotiate from a position of strength.

Good luck Angel honey.

~Simone.

Also, how is anyone going to know which bathroom you use or which locker room?  Does everyone on campus know your status?  Is someone going to follow you around to make sure you don't use the *wrong* facilities?  How are they going to enforce this?  Just curious...are they going to plaster your face all over the women's rooms with a note to call the administration if you show up?

Honestly...

Jay, the rebel...

[Lisbeth]

Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?

I struggled with that for years at the public pool.  I couldn't turn left or right.  Went on for a couple of years.  Until my youngest (11 at the time) told me to just buck up and go through the women's side.  She asked pointedly, "Your name is Lisbeth, isn't it?"

[NicholeW.]

Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?

Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?

Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.

When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.

Nichole

[Elincubus]

Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.

When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.

If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.

[Ell]

Well things are getting complicated. For at least the rest of the summer i'm restricted to using the unisex restrooms. The decision was given to me by the VP that 'for the near future' this is how it should work.

Currently i'm extremely PO'd but trying to remain calm. The fact that she didn't seem to listen to my objections about the issue made it only worse. It didn't help that all of this was given over the phone.

So now i'm spending the majority of my summer days at a job that seems to be hell bent on denying my femininity. First it was the bathrooms, then the earrings, next the nail polish, and now the stone pendent I wear for religious reasons today. Never mind that i've seen other women wearing the very things i'm denied, and all i'm told when I point this out is that I must rat them out. Great, now i'm doing my boss's job.

Probably the worse thing was that since I was planning to go swimming in the school's gym, i've been given a conundrum. TO get to the pool you must go through one of the locker rooms. I can't use the men's as that would simply out me, I can't use the woman's or rik administrative punishment. So what then?

Does anyone have any ideas on what might help?

The first advice, is, don't get PO'd. whatever happens, don't allow your emotions to get tied up with someone else's actions. if you can't swim, well, there are many other ways to get good exercise.

and um, may i ask if you are in the US? because if you are, people are denying your Constitutional rights at your job. don't get pissed! but there is no law against wearing nail polish. you need to contact the GLBT law center near you, and the ACLU.

-Ellie

[NicholeW.]

Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.

When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.

If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.

O, OK. The four universities I've attended and am used to swimming at haven't had the locker-room only access to the pools. My bad.

N~