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Banned from expressing moral opposition to homosexuality

Started by Chaunte, June 14, 2008, 07:28:00 AM

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Chaunte

WorldNetDaily

Government to pastor: Renounce your faith!
Now banned from expressing moral opposition to homosexuality

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Posted: June 09, 2008
10:00 pm Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily

A Canadian human rights tribunal ordered a Christian pastor to renounce his faith and never again express moral opposition to homosexuality, according to a new report.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=66704
  •  

Sarah

I don't agree with the suppression of freedom of speech, however rude this person may have been.
To say that someone may never again express those views, to me is stepping on basic freedom of religion, press, and speech rights.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again;
we don't have the right NOT to feel uncomfortable.
If we did it would apply to everyone and then we'd all be in trouble as we all make some people feel uncomfortable in some way.

-Sara
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Suzy

I know a lot of people will cheer this opinion,  but I do not.  I just shudder at the thought that the government could reach into a person's religion and mandate what it teaches.  The pastor's opinion was hardly anything new, and is sincerely held by many in his church as an historic position.  That is not to say I agree with it, but that is not the issue.  Next they will be shutting me up and telling me what I must believe.  If I do not agree with the prevailing political winds, I might be fined and/or imprisoned.  That is a scary world in which to live.

Kristi
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NicholeW.

I agree that he shouldn't be censored. I don't agree with what he said, but like Kristi said, it's nothing new from that quarter anyhow. I truly do wish people would find it in their hearts to temper some of their speech about others with whom they disagree and find objectionable in some way.

Sometimes its pretty hard to tell that they are "hating the sin and loving the sinner." And occasionally someone takes that sort of idea and becomes totally obsessed with it to the point that they feel a calling to rid the world of "sinners." It doesn't happen a lot, but ot does occur. I'm specifically thinking of a sugeon whoperformed abortions in the northeast who was murdered by some anti-abortionist and then led the FBI and other law enforcement on a merry chase through the mountains of western North carolina a few years ago.

I don't think that the preacher or priest is responsible for the acts of the murgerer, nor do I believe that they agree with the actions, but sometimes one, perhaps, should try to reflect love when they purport to believe in that. I've had people who were not amenable to my transition say so to me, but they haven't sounded when they did as though they thought I'd be better off dead or in hell.

Nichole
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Dennis

Perhaps we'd better stop taking the summary of the decision from rabid fundie christian blogs. Here's what the panel ordered:

Quote14. The Panel finds, and the Panel orders as follows:
a. That Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. shall cease publishing in newspapers, by email, on the radio, in public speeches, or on the internet, in future, disparaging remarks about gays and homosexuals. Further, they shall not and are prohibited from making disparaging remarks in the future about Dr. Lund or Dr. Lund's witnesses relating to their involvement in this complaint. Further, all disparaging remarks versus homosexuals are directed to be removed from current web sites and publications of Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc.
b. That The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. and Mr. Boissoin shall, in future, be restrained from committing the same or similar contraventions of the Act.
c. That Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. provide Dr. Lund with a written apology for the article in the Red Deer Advocate which was the subject of this complaint.
d. That Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. shall request the Red Deer Advocate publish a copy this Order in the Red Deer Advocate and that they request their written apology for the contravention of the Act be published in the Red Deer Advocate.
e. That Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc. shall pay to Dr. Lund an award for damages, jointly and severally, in the amount of $5,000.00.
f. That Ms. Dodd shall provide a list of expenses incurred as a result of her testimony at the hearing to the Panel Chair for review and such sum shall be paid to her for her actual expenses associated with this matter up to the maximum amount of $2,000.00 as directed by the Panel Chair upon receiving her list of expenses. Such amounts so ordered by the Panel Chair shall be paid jointly and severally by Mr. Boissoin and The Concerned Christian Coalition Inc.

Nothing about renouncing his religion, and nothing other than do not publish hate speech (about which we have laws in Canada), and particularly not inciding hatred against the complainant (which is also a Criminal Code matter).

The section of the Code that was contravened was as follows:

QuoteDiscrimination Re: Publications, Notices
3(1) - No person shall publish, issue or display or cause to be published, issued or displayed before the public any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other representation that
(a) Indicates discrimination or an intention to discriminate against a person or a class of persons, or
(b) Is likely to expose a person or a class of persons to hatred or contempt
because of the race, religious beliefs, color, gender, physical disability, mental
disability, age, ancestry, place of origin, marital status, source of income or family
status of that person or class of persons.
(2) - Nothing in this Section shall be deemed to interfere with the free expression of opinion on any subject.

The decision of the Tribunal was based on the contents of the letter and the question to be answered was whether it fell under section 3(2) or the earlier sections. The letter itself talked about declaring war on homo and bisexuals, and was, the tribunal found, an incitement to violence. Even in the US, there are limits to freedom of speech. Shouting fire in a crowded theatre is one of them. In Canada, inciting violence against enumerated groups is another limit.

One factor that was taken into account by the tribunal was the fact that no political remedies for their opposition to gays/bis and lesbians were suggested. It was simply a call to war.

In addition, Boissoin ran a youth centre and one of the youths who frequented the centre later beat a gay 17 year old boy, two weeks after the letter was published, and after Boissoin had been crowing about the response his letter was receiving. The usual practice at the youth centre was to bar youths who were involved in violence. Boissoin's response to this youth beating the gay youth was "God called him to be active with his beliefs."

So I, for one, am cheering the opinion. Not because I relish limitations on freedom of speech, but as Canadians, we have made a choice about where that line is and the tribunal upheld that choice. Gay/bi/trans kids in small towns have a right to feel safe and not be victimized by people with influence.

The decision is located here: http://www.albertahumanrights.ab.ca/LundDarren113007Pa.pdf

And there's a lovely quote from it too:

QuoteAlthough expression of religious opinion is strongly protected, this protection cannot be extended to shield [hate speech] simply because they are contained in the same message and the one is used to bolster the other. If that were the case, religious opinion could be used with impunity as a Trojan Horse to carry the intended message of hate...

The penalty portion of the decision is in a separate document. I've quoted it above. Can get link if anyone cares.

Dennis
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tekla

And, for better and worse, Canada is not the US, that kind of opinion would never be handed down here.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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NicholeW.

Quote from: tekla on June 19, 2008, 03:30:47 AM
And, for better and worse, Canada is not the US, that kind of opinion would never be handed down here.

That I do find to be true, tekla. Although a human rights tribunal that actually had some effect might be just the thing for each state in the USA.

N~

But, thanks Dennis. Actually reading the opinion does certainly makes a difference.
  •  

tekla

I was thinking more along the lines of ...
A) libel laws are very different in the English and American systems
and
B) the First Amm. to the the Constitution would make it very hard to sue anyone expressing a religious opinion
and
C) Highly unlikely that the US would ever pass such human rights laws
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Mnemosyne

I stopped as soon as I saw World News Daily. Talk about right wing fanatics!
  •  

Suzy

Even reading the decision, this is still censorship IMHO.   Dressed in fancy words, yes, but censorship nonetheless.  And as I predicted, many people, even here, applaud it.  But just tell me how it will feel when it is ruled that speaking in favor of transgender rights will be seen as harmful to other individuals, or hate speech, or it will be seen to have caused violence to someone.  It will not be such a gleeful moment then, will it?  And if you think it will never happen, think again.  It is still that way in many parts of the world.  It was that way in Nazi Germany.  And it has been that way in North America for most of its existence.  There is absolutely no guarantee the pendulum will not soon swing back, as it often does.  Censorship is never good for any of us, no matter who happens to be getting the brunt of it.  I have the utmost of respect for Canada, having lived on the border for a significant portion of my life.  But this is one thing I would never get used to.

Kristi
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LynnER

:)

Freedom of speech is one thing...

But using your religion as a shield and a call to arms is another...

Onward Christian solders, destroy the heretic enemies of our beliefs... crush them with unjust violence that goes again the very core of even our religion..... Maim, kill, destroy!!!

I like the idea that this kind of redric is not aloud in Canada... to bad its not so in the US...

Remember even in the US your rights end where others begin...

Be as religious as you want... but don't incite a riot or use your faith to spread hate... thats just plain wrong.
* LynnER makes the peace sign
Remember you Christan folks... Love thy nabors<I cant spell :P >
  •  

tekla

Inciting a riot is an action.  Expressing how much you hate some people is a right.  As long as you do not pressure for direct action, I think you have a right to say what you want. 

If you don't like what religious types say, stay away from churches, works for me at least.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Mnemosyne

We once had the KKK come to my home town to do some sort of protest. The city fought them which was something we did not want the city to do. Because we embraced the KKK? Hardly. Small town=not much tax revenues and we knew the KKK would win. They did and it cost the city over $10K back in the 80s when that was real money. So we stuck them on a practice softball field that was known for flooding. They spent the day in a corner of town that hardly anyone goes to, within spitting distance of the police building, and knee deep in mud. They had their Constitutional right to show that they were idiots and we got to not really deal with them.

I would love to see true separation of church and State in the US. No more tax breaks. No public funding of any kind. Either they have enough believers to support them or they can fade into the past.
  •  

tekla

The time worn adage is that "we let nazis march because we are not nazis."
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: LynnER on June 20, 2008, 10:56:10 PM
Freedom of speech is one thing...
But using your religion as a shield and a call to arms is another...

I quite agree.  However, it does not appear to me that this is what this pastor.

It would be nice if everyone agreed with us, but it isn't going to happen.  Ever.  And if we do want freedom of expression this is the price we have to pay.   So take it or leave it.  We can't have freedom of speech only for those who take our views.  That's why even scum like the KKK and Neo-Naizis have to have the right to speak.  Usually, by giving them a platform, they just prove to most of the world what idiots they are anyway.  If they organize violence, or call for hate crimes, they have crossed the line and end up in jail.

Philosopher George Santayana well said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Hopefully, we will never forget how important and costly this right is.

Kristi
  •  

tekla

Philosopher George Santayana

... was not a philosopher, he was an historian.  Which is how he came to know the past.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: tekla on June 22, 2008, 01:13:01 AM
Philosopher George Santayana
... was not a philosopher, he was an historian.  Which is how he came to know the past.

Actually, I beg to differ.  He was many things, but first and foremost a philosopher.  For more information, see here:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/santayana/

Kristi
  •  

LynnER

KK, this is for everyone who cares to take a look...

Also remember that this whole thing is Canadian in origin, and so are the laws being enforced...

Some are for it, Some against... But its not the U.S. and therefore there are no 1st amendment rights involved...

This took a while to find but is the letter that started it all... Form your own opinion.

http://canadianpastor.blogspot.com/

And this letter is charged with inciting the beating of a teen in Red deer...
  •  

Suzy

Great job on the link, LynnER!  Glad to finally read the letter.

I do have to say I've read worse and expected worse.  It's the same ridiculous rhetoric both sides use.  I don't like it no matter who does the mud slinging.  And I agree that this is Canadian, not American.  So their laws are just that, theirs.  As I said above, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Canadians.  I only hope Americans learn by watching.

Kristi
  •  

cindybc

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