NON TG with a message

[Ell]

Hi Skits,

i think it is astonishing that you would take the time to address your concerns to a group of transgendered people you don't know.

from a young age, i exhibited a number of traits which were not acceptable within the idea of being a boy, so i underwent a long series of beatings, humiliations, and criticisms, all in an effort to guide me back to the normally accepted range of male behavior.

i did not have a Barbara Walters special. and if i'd had, i suspect that a lot of right-thinking Americans would have said, "Good! that's just what he needs. if he were my kid, i'd also beat it out of him!"

no one was concerned about me, or what happened to me, except one aunt, who offered a safe haven for me during my early teen years. she accepted me as i was, and we would hang out like a couple of girls, and bake our favoite recipes.

of course, that one safe haven wasn't enough to prevent me from learning to hide my gender identity at all costs.

the effects of going undercover for so long resulted in a stint in the military, a long-term involvement with a woman who gave me a child, and a fake deep voice. i think you may have seen guys with a fake deep voice. pathetic, isn't it?

oh wait, i don't have a point to what i'm saying here. anyway, enjoy your sojourn here amongst the "gender challenged".

-Ell

[Chaunte]

Hi, Skits.  Welcome to Susans.

I just read your post and I want to reply.

It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender. 

Being a scientist and science teacher, I have been doing a lot of reading of medical journals regarding transgender/transsexual issues.  So when a person says that it is "scientifically proven," I am curious to read the journal article.  This is especially true since the phrase "scientifically proven" is an oxymoron.  We deal with probablities and likely outcomes.  If you could cite the source, I would appreciate it.  (The NY Times or any other such publication is not a science article.  They are spin-doctored to sell more newspapers and thus advertising space.  The only ones that count are real, peer-reviewed, mainstream journal articles.  Believe me, your peers will make your research bleed red ink if there is something wrong with it!)

I understand older teenage age children or older people making this decision to be TG.  But I think this EARLY forced acceptance may disrupt the natural flow of things.  I think there are a lot of kids who may possibly be the kind of kid i was at their age.  And I think that gentle correction is much better than giving them a choice at such a young age.  I just don't think a 5,6,7 ....year old should be given the freedom to make that choice yet. 

There is a difference between play and inner conviction as to who you are.  This comes down to basic biology.  I would refer you to the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 85, No 5.  (If a science journal has been around 85 years, it's highly reputable.)  In this, researchers present celar evidence that a male-to-female transsexual has the neuron pattern of a typical genetic female.  The reverse is true in that a female-to-male transsexual has the neuron pattern of a typical genetic male.  Their research showed that this occurrs 100% of the time.  This result was so startling that they repeated the experiment and included another hospital in the study.  Their research was confirmed.

Volume 30 of the journal Psychoneuroendocrinology, page 667 to 672 if I recall correctly, presents evidence that being transsexual is due to a genetic difference.  This would support the observations made in the journal article cited above.

More and more research is indicating that being anywhere under the LGBT umbrella is directly related to genetics.  This includes observing gay and lesbian behavior in other animals.

If you spend any time here, Skits, you will see that it is almost universal that we knew who we were by age 7.  Most of us were in denial for many, many years. 

No one starts living as the opposite sex / correct gender just for giggles.  These children know who they are.  They and their parents have gone through much counseling long before they start living as their correct gender.  Why cause pain and confusion in a child when it is needless.

Chaunte

[skits]

AGAIN EVERYONE,,,, 

i stress that I am solely speaking on young children and sending five year old aged children to school as the opposite sex etc....

for those of you that are continuing to try to convince me that TG is REAL ....you dont have to.  Thats not my argument  

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

[Chaunte]

AGAIN EVERYONE,,,, 

i stress that I am solely speaking on young children and sending five year old aged children to school as the opposite sex etc....

for those of you that are continuing to try to convince me that TG is REAL ....you dont have to.  Thats not my argument  

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

Skits,

I think we are hearing your opinion.  And, while you are entitled to it, we are trying to share information that might fill in some gaps of information that you might not be aware of. 

Again, these children are NOT dressing as the opposite sex simply on a whim.  Far from it!  What may not have come across from the special is the amount of therapy that precedes this step - both for the child and the parents. 

From what you have said, transitoning would have been inappropriate for you.  While you may or may not be transgendered, you are not transsexual.

However, for these particular children, not transitoning is the wrong decision. 

Chaunte

[kirakero]

Society puts too much pressure on gender expression.  Kids need to be themselves, and if being themselves is wearing girls clothes everyday, all the power to them.  At such a young age, this is more about how children feel comfortable expressing themselves rather then telling them what is and isn't taboo... Because if they are transgender and you tell them it is wrong... That is the beginning of the denial, fear, and loneliness and it can persist for many years.  Children have a right to figure their identity out for themselves.  We live in such a closed minded age when it comes to gender expression that we give kids no freedom to find themselves and keep telling them who they are (and its always a binary, which is also wrong).  Let them figure it out.  Boys will be boys, girls will be girls, and everyone in between will be in between.  Always.  Gender identity doesn't change, it is only masked by repression.  And repressing a child's self-expression for the sake of being overly cautious is wrong.. Because first of all they have feelings to express (and they have a right to express them), and second...  They don't deserve the hardship that many of us here at Susan's have been through if they are TG of parents dictating our identity.

[Kimberly]

You know, the fun thing about life is how is so different for everyone. In my case I was happy being a boy till roughly age 10 when I had had enough of life. But, convinced to stay I trundled along and wasn't too annoyed with boy life I just really never "got" it I do not think.

But a correction is in order, I think, people do not choose to be TG anymore than they choose their sexual orientation/kinks what have you.

^*shrug* Oh well, it makes life interesting I suppose.

[TheBattler]

AGAIN EVERYONE,,,, 

i stress that I am solely speaking on young children and sending five year old aged children to school as the opposite sex etc....

for those of you that are continuing to try to convince me that TG is REAL ....you dont have to.  Thats not my argument  

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

Skits,

Wellcome to susans and I think everyone here should value your experience. We as a group are to quiet to tell someone they are TG/TS and I for one like to see people take their time to work out where they turly fit it. I did it the hard way and it took a lot of years and depression to work out I needed to transition. I appreciate you telling us that some young children grow out of the "phase" however that is not true of people here.

Now knowing that some children do grow out of it - do we have the checks and balances in place to enure we capute people such as yourself are not push to far. I would hope the people who specalise in gender in young people can tell the difference between a 'tom boy' and child who has true gender problems.

Alice

[NicholeW.]

AGAIN EVERYONE,,,, 

i stress that I am solely speaking on young children and sending five year old aged children to school as the opposite sex etc....

for those of you that are continuing to try to convince me that TG is REAL ....you dont have to.  Thats not my argument  

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

Yep, I've also heard your opinion and attempted to address it to you very early this afternoon as follows:

Some parents do choose to allow their children to dress and identify themselves as a gender not the one their bodies might indicate. I understand other people can be severly upset about that. But, when it comes down to it, don't most children dress differently than others at school? I'm not sure I see a problem with any of it except as adults ingrain certain ideas into their children's heads about what "little boys" and "little girls" do and don't do.

That is gendering in my mind. All those things we are brought into and up with that provide cues to our sexes for others to see. I was always told that certain things I had a desire? need? to do aren't the way "little boys" were supposed to do those things, or were things "little boys" weren't supposed to do or think or say.

Yet, I find that I was never a little boy. That I was right and my parents and teachers, etc were kinda missing what was plain to me because they couldn't see, back then, that perhaps due to some factor or another my soul and heart and mind were not the same as my outer body. Now there is scientific evidence to show that that 'thought' of mine back then was true-to-life.

I think you may not be able to imagine how relieving that is!

So, with the clothes children are allowed or not allowed to wear. Is it truly a huge deal if someone with male genitalia wears a skirt or a dress or pants, or shirts? Who is a victim in that event? I don't really see one.

Perhaps if you do you could help me out here? I'm more than willing to have it explained to me.

Thanks,

and more Hugs,

Nichole

If you could simply answer some of those questions about 5-year old children and how it is harmful to allow them to dress in whatever way they would like, I'd be truly grateful. I'm not certain what sort of damage is done to anyone based on the decisions of parent to allow their children to dress in ways that are non-sexual and fully clothed in school.

Could you explain why you find this "harmful" to the extreme, please? Is it harmful to allow a 5 year old supposedly male-child to wear a muscle-shirt and a mullet? If not, why would it be harmful to allow a 5-year old supposedly male-child to wear a sweetheart-collared shirt and a plaid skirt?

I'm simply not understanding why the clothes people choose to wear or allow their children to wear are so important since in this society lots of adults and children wear all sorts of different clothes. Would it be problematic for an Arab-American child to wear a keffiyeh, an rabic headress?

Can you please explain that, luv?

Thanks so much and even more

Hugs,

Nichole

[Lisbeth]

It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender.  And I wanted to write about MY experience.

This is a theory that some developmental psychologists hold.  They operate from the theoretical framework that gender identity is a socialization process.  This is neither the only theory nor one that has been proven.  It was the majority opinion during the past ten years, but is rapidly losing ground to other theories today.

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

I hear your words through the ears of a trained listener, and I have to question why you feel so strongly about this issue.  I am not convinced that your "confusion" is gone.  Is it perhaps only submerged by your socialization?  I am available if there are any issues in your life you would like to talk to me about.

[Elwood]

Thanks for your posts everyone.  Agree with some things and disagree with other things but non the less good to discuss.

Elwood...
I will tell you i came in here in a very kind and courteous manner.  I am a non TG person but i never was attacking TG persons in any way.  You have twisted my words, insulted me, and took on an very negative tone. 

That is unfortunate as I have come in here very clearly stating I am not here to offend or argue.  I think that that is more than you will get out of a lot of people in this world so you should try to be a little kinder to someone who is taking the time to talk and LISTEN so that I may express my opinion and still learn more from you guys. 

And again for everyone i just want to stress my opinion is solely based on young children.  My only fear is that if there are other young five six seven year olds that destined to grow out of the phase (which I know a lot of kids dont grow out of it)  but if there are more like me....then that means that there are kids who grow out of it.  So it would be confusing to start calling them by the opposite sex etc....at such a young age.

For example....had my mother said it was ok for me to be a boy....what would that have done to me?  would i have grown out of it still?  would it have affected me or added to the confusion? 
I dont know....

Don't let my aggression hurt everyone else. Honestly, I'm the only one who lashed out at you. So don't say it is the whole of the transgendered community. We came in all shapes and sizes, and I just happen to be one of the nastier ones.

Since you have stressed that this applies to young children, this slightly changes my view. But I still know that there are children that need to express themselves. Being young doesn't make a person completely oblivious to their own personal awareness.

If your mom said it was okay for you to be a boy, and you grew up your whole life happy with that, so what? GID is just ONE way to happily transition. A person can also transition thanks to nurture. If you were raised a boy, you might never question whether or not you should have been a girl. Everyone's situation is going to be different, and if you didn't have GID and she merely gave hormone blockers (which actually aren't so important with FtMs, as testosterone tends to override the effects of estrogen in the long run), once you reached puberty, you'd probably feel the defining factor. If you decided you were a girl, or rather, realized, they could cease any hormone blockers they had been giving you and let you develop naturally from then on forward. No harm done.

I'd say more but i have to leave right now.

[JonasCarminis]

wow... just read all of this.  and i agree wih elwood on this one.  allll the way through.  i think he was spot on actually.  i might have been nastier. >.>  but seriously, i dont see a problem with letting a child pick the kind of chothes they want to wear to school.  i never expressed that i wanted to be a boy as a child, but i did make it vocal that i didnt like dresses or girly things and that they embrrassed me.  i also made it clear that i liked looser clothes.  my parents supported me and i was much more comfortable like that.  unfortunately, the rest of society didnt agree and i was made fun of, which contributed to denial, anger problems, and self loathing.  fortunately, i didnt have to deal with that for nearly as long as a lot of pople on this board, thanks to my parents helping me feel comfortable in my own skin.

[cindybc]

Hi Tasha, I quite agree.

oh, btw:  i would no more choose to be ts than i would choose to have a red-hot poker shoved up my....well, you get the idea 

I am a none aggressive person never was but was still the victim of abuse for a good many years. I may myself ask why any sane person would *choose* to be TG or TS?

Considering all the crap one goes through right down to ending up living on the street, I have just started a job where I am involved with these girls. How could anyone sane go through the entire process from A to Z fully of transition, knowing full well the hardships that come with transitioning? It is not a choice, it is an unrelenting force that refuses to be appeased.

In the end there are only two choices we can make, go with it or suicide. Is that what you wish to see that child face at one point or another in their lives? Or to be allowed to grow to be in the  the gender they feel they right in, then grow up to live reasonably normal lives when they become young adults?

Well there is a couple of questions for you hon.

Thank you for the chalange

Cindy

[Shana A]

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

The only problem I have with kids expressing non binary gender behavior is the harassment they are likely to endure from other kids, and the unwillingness of some adults to truly protect these children. Why not teach our children that it is NOT OK to bully other children for non binary gender expression.

Zythyra

[Lori]

Hello everyone,

I signed onto this board because i watched barbara walters' TG special last night.  And I was a bit bothered by what I saw.  Before you get angry at me hear me out:

It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender.  And I wanted to write about MY experience.

As far back as I could remember as a young child, I wanted to be a boy (I am a girl).  This lasted until around 7 or 8 years old.  I never wanted to do girlie things, I always wanted to hang out with boys, I like boy toys better and thought dolls were stupid....the list goes on.  I even remember dreaming about waking up a boy.  I would pray that God would make me a boy.  And I even prayed that I would grow a penis!

I remember telling my mother several times.  I don't remember her exact reaction.  She didn't get mad, but she didn't encourage my behavior either. 

To make a long story VERY short...I grew out of that stage.  Even if it took years I eventually learned that being a girl was who I am and as a teen became thrilled about being a girl! 

My concern is that in my opinion, parents are jumping the gun way too early to allow their child to choose what sex they want to be.  Had my mother went ahead at 5 or 6 years old and told me: ITS OK HONEY, YOU WANT TO BE A BOY?  THAN GO AHEAD.  ITS OK AND WE WILL LOVE YOU REGARDLESS....I don't know how i would have turned out!  And maybe my dreams of growing a penis would never have gone away. 
thank goodness she didn't just go ahead and tell me to be who I want to be. 

I understand older teenage age children or older people making this decision to be TG.  But I think this EARLY forced acceptance may disrupt the natural flow of things.  I think there are a lot of kids who may possibly be the kind of kid i was at their age.  And I think that gentle correction is much better than giving them a choice at such a young age.  I just don't think a 5,6,7 ....year old should be given the freedom to make that choice yet. 

Please don't get super offended this is just my opinion.  Thanks for reading

It was scientifically proven that it would not rain this week in North Central Texas. We have had 2.5 inches of rain and some areas have flooded in the last few days.

It was scientifically proven we would have Atlantic hurricanes the last two years 2006-2007 with a bunch more coming this year near the USA. We have had none so far.

Ya know, just because something worked for you does not mean it will work for everybody. Everybody is different. Its pretty stupid to make such a broad statement or generalize all children just for the sake they are all children.

You have the right to talk about yourself and what worked for you and you alone. You can put across you idea that could be tried on kids, but I am willing to bet it would fail on 98% of them

Muslims think all children should be raised Muslim. Do you agree with that? Why not? Its the same line of thinking you are putting across.

You are unique just like everybody else. I don't know what Gender Confusion is. That is a new term to me. I'm glad you got your problems sorted out but your problems are not other peoples.

There may be somebody out there you can associate with and agree to, and perhaps you should seek them out and start your own little support group and forum. See how many people like you there really are. If over 80% of the kids with gender problems turned out to be Gender Confused then you may be on to something. Right now it appears you may be on something to me. 

Make no mistake. You don't decide to be TG anymore than you decide to be Hispanic, Black, Asian, male, female, gay, straight, mentally handicapped,  or anything else.

You choose to  become a fisherman, a policeman, a fireman or a good or bad person. You choose to do drugs or not. You don't choose your gender.

The simple statement that "teenagers make the decision to be TG" pretty much sums up to me that the person that wrote such an insulting thing  has no clue as to what they are talking about, no knowledge of gender or identity problems, nor do they have any common sense.

One who generalizes others into groups is making an error and themselves into a fool the moment they open their mouths.

[deviousxen]

AGAIN EVERYONE,,,, 

i stress that I am solely speaking on young children and sending five year old aged children to school as the opposite sex etc....

for those of you that are continuing to try to convince me that TG is REAL ....you dont have to.  Thats not my argument  

I watched barbara walters last night and saw parents letting their YOUNG YOUNG children go to school dressed, registered as opposite sex, names changed, and referred to as opposite sex....and what i am saying is that I think that is wrong.  They are just too young for that in my opinion. 

As a kid who went through her own confusion...i think i have the right to that opinion.  I am grateful my parents gently corrected me instead of just letting me make a decision as to what sex i was going to be.  I would have chosen a BOY at age 7!!  But that left me and this DOES happen to lots of children.  Had i just started being referred to as a boy at age 5-7 i dont know what that would have done to me? 

One is never too young to act as themselves, and express who they are internally, externally. For children, I'd argue that they know themselves far better than any adult does- They have far less influence from something like TV, the internet, social connections and anything like that. For a person that age who hasn't had the burden and static of useless knowledge pumped into their head from years of school or nonsense like that, something like a gender issue contrasts and stands out.

As for the whole, "Who knows what it would have done to me?" Argument. Exactly that. Who knows?

I mean... For all you know, you could have not only been a man, but, "The man."

[skits]

Thanks for responses for all of you who were mature enough not to get so aggressive and throw insults at me:)  I won't be coming back in here as it seems some of you are quite agitated with my opinion. 

And for those of you telling me I still want to be a man and i'm in denial...well that's just as insulting as me telling you you really are not the sex you feel you are. 

But for everyone else...thanks bunches i had a wonderful time discussing things!  Have a happy fourth weekend

[Buffy]

This topic has been Admin Locked.

Skits started the topic and she can have the last word.

It may have been an emotive subject but does not warrant some of the things that have been posted.

Buffy