Poll shows slim majority opposes Prop 8

[Mnemosyne]

Poll shows slim majority opposes Prop 8
by Seth Hemmelgarn
Bay Area Reporter
Saturday Jul 26, 2008
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=glbt&sc2=news&sc3=&id=77908

"It's another encouraging indicator that we can defeat this attack on our families and the constitution in California," said Evan Wolfson, executive director of the national group Freedom to Marry.

"The only thing that worries me is that anybody feels any complacency or believes that someone else will take care of the whole thing," Wolfson said. "The scale of the campaign, the amount of money needed and the sheer size of California mean that we need all hands on deck and we each must do our personal part."

[Elwood]

Yeah. I'm really ticked off that people are trying to abolish it. It's none of their business who I love and how I choose to be intimate.

[tekla]

I don't think its about who or what, or why you love, its about a political action and who can, and who can not gain some set aside benefits by being married. 

Myself I would favor the abolishment of all special conditions for married peoples, then see who would be so all fired up in favor of it. 

But this election cycle I don't think its going to be a big get out and vote deal.

First - and foremost, the real estate crisis with sales averaging $100,000 dollars less this year than last, record foreclosure rates, and the like makes this entire argument something people could care less about.

Second - given the recent court decision, the SF winter of love example, and all, giving gay persons the right to marry changed nothing, so its going to be hard to get people to care.

Third - One Cali bank has closed already, wait till one of the big ones, both Washington Mutual and Wachovia are ready to fall, then this issue is less.

Fourth - though there seems to be some people in the rest of the nation who might vote McCain despite the fact that he looks like the picture on an iodine bottle, Cali will not, so the Obama vote will be huge and ought to settle this.

Fifth - hell, even Arnold came out against it.

That is not to say you ought to take it for granted, but its not panic time yet.

[Elwood]

I don't want gay marriage to be "special." I want it to be just like any other marriage. And yes, if taxing will be an issue (men make more money, etc. etc.) than I'm sure there are ways that things can be customized so that there aren't "monetary advantages/disadvantages" for gay couples. People are making the "political move" to not allow gays to marry because they're homophobes. There's no other reason not to let them marry. They don't want gay people to have as much as they do. That would make gay people be... -GASP- NORMAL.

On a slight off note, I'd like to hope our economy doesn't crash before I get started with testosterone.

[tekla]

The economy is now at mile 9 of its skid on a ten mile ride.  We are fast passing recession and headed toward depression.

Here are some basic fact, and not that I'm some sort of left wing person (I am) but I took this from a former secretary of the treasury under Reagan, just to be sure.



The dollar has lost 60% of its value against the euro, and the once mighty dollar is losing its reserve currency role.

The Republicans' policies have driven up the price of both oil and gold by 400%.

Inflation is in double digits. Employment is falling.

The Republican economy in the 21st century has been unable to create net new jobs for Americans except for low wage domestic services such as waitresses, bartenders, retail clerks and hospital orderlies.

Republican deregulation brought about fraud in mortgage lending and dangerous financial instruments which have collapsed the housing market, leaving a million or more homeowners facing foreclosure. The financial system is in disarray and might collapse from insolvency.

The trade and budget deficits have exploded. The US trade deficit is larger than the combined trade deficits of every deficit country in the world.

The US can no longer finance its wars or its own government and relies on foreign loans to function day to day. To pay for its consumption, the US sells its existing assets--companies, real estate, toll roads, whatever it can offer--to foreigners.

[Elwood]

People have been saying that for 3 decades. I won't believe it until I see some signs that are more similar to the previous major depressions. Needless to say if it were to happen right now I wouldn't be "in trouble." I am a survivor, and I know a lot about depending on natural resources.

Recessions are a normal fluctuation in the economy. They aren't always a sign of an economic depression.

[tekla]

If you know anything about depending on natural resources, you know you and you alone can not make it on that alone. 

Point.

Do you know how to a) grow wheat b) harvest wheat c) thresh wheat - seperating the wheat from the chaff) d) store wheat (so that vermin and mold do not get to it) d) milling wheat (hint, you have to build a mill first) e) make raw wheat into bread f) making bread g) storing bread?  Hell of a list there, and any shortfall on any given point means: you starve - in few months, not years.

And by your own admission, what do you know from 30 years?   I know of nothing in the 80s or 90s that was like this. No one in the 90s was talking 'total economic collapse.'  I know of no run on banks since the 1930s, but we are watching it today.  IndyMac took 10% of the Fed reserve fund to prop up, what happens when WaMu or Watchova goes under?  (And a that, WaMu had a huge infusion of capitol from Brazil last summer and its still not enough)

Been watching Cali real estate values lately?  People be paying on houses that are not worth near their payments.  So they are just sending the keys back to the bank.  That has never happened before.

I was just back in the midwest and I saw banks with fleets of new cars in the lot, repo time.  I saw real estate with 'price reduced' signs on the "for sale" signs - never saw that before.  I go to my bank and people are calling in asking how much their deposits are insured for.  That's getting desperate.

Some minor brewery in Europe was able to buy the biggest brewery in the US for a song.  Not a minor deal.  Because the Euro is worth so much more than the dollar today.  Try buying anything not made in the USA?  Good luck, its got much more expensive.  My favorite candy from Holland is twice what it was a year ago.

In Santa Barbara, not poverty city by any means, a parking lot has been turned into RV space, except its not RVs, its people living in their cars who rent a space there rather than get busted.

So, what do you know about previous depressions?  I studied them a lot in grad school, and this is worse.

[Elwood]

Hah. Please. You're just trying to one up me. You're always bucking heads with me. I would have to write a fairly decent essay to describe how I'd survive.

I know what to eat. That's what I was saying. Throw me in a forest, and I know what to eat. I also know how to gut some kinds of animals. I think the snake is the easiest, but they're not so easy to catch and they are small. Bugs are usually a good choice, you've just got to know which ones aren't edible, but the protein provides a great deal of energy and nourishment. Only drink from running water, as sitting water tends to have dangerous growths within it.

I don't have to live like the nomads did to survive. Wheat isn't the only food in the world.

Recessions are ongoing. Economic recessions happen every few years. Actually know your facts before spouting nonsense.

As for housing, this is not the first time housing has been like this in California. You're simply not taking inflation into account. You're trying to instill panic in people where what we really need is some decent ideas.

[tekla]

Oh the housing deal in Cali is way beyond any helpful comments on my part.  Losing $100K is more loss than most people have the resources to handle.

And the wheat deal is the easy argument.  Just how, without chlorine are you going to drink anything?  Not to mention, your in competition with all of LA for that snake.  More people in LA than stupid snakes for sure.  And I'm not in argument. I'm all in favor of community vs. individuals and I think community wins out every time.  But.... if you are not in that community when it falls (and history would tell is it falls very, very fast) then its too late.

And its not a war of all against all, its group against group, so do you think you can take on the Hell's Angels in a survival contest (remember, most of them have military training)?

WaMu has already had people withdrawing more money per day than the FDIC would allow, but they let it happen.  Why?  Because as soon as WaMu says "we can't cash that check" they get lines around the block.  As soon as any bank get lines to withdraw money, they crash.

Its not all gloom and doom, but.... being an ostrich is not a better option either.

[Elwood]

Excuse you, but, you don't drink water with chlorine in it. It's poisonous.

I'd rather die than live in a community like this. If I am the weaker, so fracking be it. Now if you would please stop harassing me.

[tekla]

Chlorine is what makes drinking water drinkable in the first place, which is why you don't know anyone who died of cholera, even though its a leading cause of death.  Matter of fact, close to 88% of the people in the world die of water borne pathogens.

The simple difference between dying and not dying of water, is chlorine.

[Elwood]

No, there is much more to it. You don't need to chemically treat water to drink it.