Left Behind

[Shana A]

I think non-gender-role conforming people whether cisgender identified, binary transsexuals or otherwise transgender have a right to not be discriminated against for their gender expression or gender identity (percieved or actual).  This is a very different civil rights battle than the right for binary transsexual people to be legally considered full members of the gender they identify as.

Failing that their fall back position is dragging everyone gender variant in any fashion into a third category in addition to the binary.

I think you're talking about the tendency to lump all trans people into a 'third gender' category.  This is something I don't agree with, people have the right to be binary identified whether cissexual or transsexual.

I recognise there is a lot of past bad history here but the worst thing any of us could do is continue to be divisive.  Can we not put the "sins" of the past to rest?  We need to work together when we have a common need and avoid invalidating the needs of others the rest of the time.

Thanks Andra!

Yes, even if we don't all see things the same way, we need to work together as allies toward common goals to end ALL discriminations. I don't believe that non binary and binary people need to be against each other. Having protections in laws for gender identity and expression include everyone, cissexual men and women, binary, non binary, etc, not just transgender people. As far as I'm concerned, if one person is oppressed, that's one person too many.

Zythyra

[nooneinparticular]

Andra, Nichole

I am addressing both of you in a single answer because in many ways you are both making the same assumptions and taking the same stance.

I am in agreement with you that those 'educating' people about trans issues (hope you don't mind me using that as a broad term) need to be careful to not to dismiss those who experience severe dysphoria and have a medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments as simply undergoing 'body modifications' on a whim.  This is potentially very harmful for those who require medical help from medical insurance or socialized healthcare systems.

However it's a rather broad statement that "trans gendered identified individuals [are] something entirely different than those born with transsexual or intersexual conditions".  There are many non-binary identified people and people who are binary identified but non-gender role conforming who experience debilitating dysphoria and have a real medical need for hormonal and surgical treatments.

Nonetheless, my years of experience tell me they are totally different and I will point out, I was surgically assigned male at birth when I was born a tetragametic chimera.  Regardless, my identity always was and remains female.  Anyone who has a debilitating gender dysphoria that requires surgical correction is by definition a classic transsexual so you are trying to have it both ways here.  Whether or not they are non gender role conforming is not relevant.

I think non-gender-role conforming people whether cisgender identified, binary transsexuals or otherwise transgender have a right to not be discriminated against for their gender expression or gender identity (perceived or actual).  This is a very different civil rights battle than the right for binary transsexual people to be legally considered full members of the gender they identify as.

Yes, it is an entirely different battle, one that if it had been fought on the basis of the medical model transsexuals, would have resulted in civil rights a long long time ago for ALL gender variant people.  A further word on terminology.  The term "cisgender" was coined or at least popularized by the worst internet troll in the history of usenet, Laura Blake.  Someone who's open hatred of transsexual people bordered on the totally pathological.  The same is true of the term that has been forced on people of transsexual history in the name of "inclusion"....."transgender".  Again the word came from the rabidly anti-transsexual Charles "Virginia" Prince.   Both these words are like open slaps on the face to myself and many like me........bordering on hate speech because of who coined them and having them applied to us.

As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem.  It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side.  Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no way!  Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not.  I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does.  Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate?  No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true.  That is disrespectful of my reality.  Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities.  We have been told over and over that is too high a price.

At its core, the logic behind this is cissexist.  Being trans identified and being a woman are not mutually exclusive.  One term refers to a person's medical history (in the case of binary identified transsexuals), the other refers to a person's gender.  I think Julia believes that she is somewhat an outsider due to having lived a portion of her life in 'male role'.  All women of transsexual history have lived some of their life in 'male role', this is undeniable fact.  Does simply refusing to allude to that fact make you more of a woman than those who choose to admit it?  I don't see how that can possibly be the case!  When trans identified WOMEN approach women's space as trans identified WOMEN (and therefore AS WOMEN), it's cissexist to say that their presence is any less legitimate than ciswomen or trans women who choose to not refer to their history.

Ok, all this cisgender this and that drives me nuts.......I guess I'm cisgendered....or not, the term seems deliberately separatist.  I have A gender, never "trans-ed" it, am quite comfortable with it, always had it and had to correct the damage done to my body by an arrogant doctor when I was born to fit it better.  End of story.  In that regard I am like 99.9% of the people on the planet, other than the body correction part.

Over and over I have personally observed that those who demand entry into women's space do so to make it all about the trans.  Those who approach women's space as women are accepted because it is on the basis of commonality.  I've even had cheap shots taken at me by transgender identified people for participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual, excuse me?

When I talk about 2012, this is nothing I did, it's what's coming plain and simple and since I know psychiatrists at the top of the field, can tell you nothing is now going to prevent it.  If you are not rigidly classical transsexual, you WILL be medically defined as fetishist by the DSM -V revision.

The last thing either side needs to do is be seen as attacking the other.  That makes all of us look invalid.

And yet the Autumn Sandeens, Monica Helms and Marti Abernatheys continue to wage war on us.  Terms like "mutilated crotches", "penises turned inside out", man-ginas and "faux neo-vaginas" are NEVER heard from the "cisgendered" world, only this crowd.  Those who devalue women with nasty terms about their genitalia are gynophobic, they are the ones who repeat over and over "you will never be a real woman because you have an X chromosome." Please explain to me how this is not a direct assault on our womanhood especially when it is done in wider LGB space?  "it's true" is not a defense of this, first, in cases such as my own, it's not completely true.  Second if I were to state that gay men are participators in oral and anal intercourse, that would also be "true" but everyone would still see it as a very nasty insult, intention matters.

I recognize there is a lot of past bad history here but the worst thing any of us could do is continue to be divisive.  Can we not put the "sins" of the past to rest?  We need to work together when we have a common need and avoid invalidating the needs of others the rest of the time.

I completely recognize the need for civil rights for all, fought for years for it.  The TG side, in the form of your loudest voices, still wish to wage war on us.  Rise up and denounce them and maybe something can be salvaged.  Suppose, starting today, a number of us started a campaign to the media and the gay community that everyone who has a dick, has no intention of getting rid of it and dresses like a woman shall henceforth be known under the new umbrella of "drag queen".  If you object to this you are insulting the drag queens of the gay communities, it's hate speech, you are an elitist, claiming superiority and you shall not be allowed to post on any trans or GLB blog or email list.  This is EXACTLY what a small group of "transgenders" did to us, it was deliberate, it was done over our loud objections and it caused us direct harm in the loss of prior hard won acceptance and civil rights.  Nichole wants my blanket promise to work with these people (the exact same ones who did this are still your most vocal spokespersons)  Why would I do that when nothing has changed other than the tide is starting slowly to turn?

Prove to me you respect my right to my identity, I started a petition to GLAAD to STOP, once and for all, the umbrella use of "transgender" to include us.....sign it and prove to me there has been a change of heart.

[Mnemosyne]

Your anger blinds you and you have no idea what 2012 will definitely bring. Me, I am going with the whole end of the Mayan calendar thing and stocking up on rum so I can watch the end of the 5th cycle (and possibly the world, according to some who think they too know the future).

[nooneinparticular]

Mnemosyne.....
I get "it"........you don't like me.  Point made.

2012 will definitely bring one thing, the DSM-V revision that will classify all non classical transsexual gender variant people as a form of fetishist..........a range from fetishistic crossdressers to AGs.  It's a done deal, no need to shoot the messenger.

I get very very tired of the same old "angry" etc. addressed to positions others do not like........

It's not about the anger, it's about what actually is happening.

Now, if you have nothing constructive to add or comment on what I say, please stop the snipes because they give the appearance you are the one with anger issues.  Dirty Dozens is the least attractive part of street queen behaviour and it only serves to foster more of an us vs them posture and assault the self worth of the victim......from anger.......or jealousy?

My first "ignore" here, congrats.

[Shana A]

As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem.  It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side.  Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no f*ing way!  Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not.  I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does.  Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate?  No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true.  That is disrespectful of my reality.  Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities.  We have been told over and over that is too high a price.

In every response I've made in this and other threads, I have stated that I respect everyone's right to self identify. When I ask if we can work together for common goals, I'm not implying that you are the same as me, it is obvious that we live in different worlds, I'm simply suggesting that we could work together as allies. I only ask of you the same thing you ask of us, respect for my identity.

Zythyra

[nooneinparticular]

In every response I've made in this and other threads, I have stated that I respect everyone's right to self identify. When I ask if we can work together for common goals, I'm not implying that you are the same as me, it is obvious that we live in different worlds, I'm simply suggesting that we could work together as allies. I only ask of you the same thing you ask of us, respect for my identity.

Granted, freely, gladly, without reservation.......and that is always how I felt.

[NicholeW.]

Dearest Cathryn,

I must admit you have a tenacity that is truly quite remarkable. "I am addressing both of you in a single answer because in many ways you are both making the same assumptions and taking the same stance." and "Nichole wants my blanket promise to work with these people (the exact same ones who did this are still your most vocal spokespersons)  Why would I do that when nothing has changed other than the tide is starting slowly to turn?"

I still haven't heard an answer to this question nor to why what passes for your hatred for is all too evident. You are simply throwing bombs, as are your tormentors. I'm going to re-phrase my question to you. Just a bit, but the original you seem to ignore and talk around at every pass. Must hate walk with us down to the realm of Hades and beyond? Can Lethe's water never be drunk or will you play Hector to another's Achilles and battle one another even on the banks of Acheron?

Thus: To that end are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?

You are intelligent, committed, focussed, perhaps even so focussed that one of your "top" psychiatrists might suggest that you have an idee fixe. I understand very well your sense that you are embattled. But a lot of that is your choice, no? And I am sure that part of your reason for continuing to come where you know before you get there that there will be disagreements is a desire to "save" other HBS-women and bring them away from what you perceive as a dangerous and ill-advised course in mixing with the TG-crew. Your sense of greater purpose is admirable even if the effect is to stir a cesspool of ill-will and hatred.

So, yet once more, I'll ask. And next time that Autumn, Marti or Monica post here I'll ask the same question of them. As a priestess you are bound to understand that "an eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind." To that end are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?

N~

[Caroline]

Nonetheless, my years of experience tell me they are totally different and I will point out, I was surgically assigned male at birth when I was born a tetragametic chimera.  Regardless, my identity always was and remains female.  Anyone who has a debilitating gender dysphoria that requires surgical correction is by definition a classic transsexual so you are trying to have it both ways here.  Whether or not they are non gender role conforming is not relevant.

There are many people with debilitating gender dysphoria who are non-binary identified and don't want to be 'male bodied' or 'female bodied'.  Generally the term 'classical transsexual' is used to describe those who are binary identified and wish to be female bodied or male bodied (which ever one matches their gender identity).  If you're including genderqueer and other non-binary people who experience gender dysphoria in your definition of 'classic transsexual' then yes, I guess it sounds like I was "trying to have it both ways".  If you could clarify as what counts as 'classic transsexual' in your opinion it'd be helpful

As I stated several time, I have zero problem with someone deconstruction their own gender, deconstruct mine and we have a major problem.  It is the total lack of respect I and others have experienced for our own identities that lies at the root of resentment and anger from our side.  Over and over I have asked for the right of self identity as a basis towards building common bridges only to be told NO, no way!  Both of you invoke an alleged male past on my part as a matter of insisting we are the same.....we are not.  I never identified as male, as a result never lived a "male life" in any meaningful sense and in fact never have been able to understand a lot of male behaviour any better than any other woman does.  Does this make me more "real" or "better" or more legitimate?  No, but it definitely makes us different...and it gets old being appealed to on the basis we are the same when is not true.  That is disrespectful of my reality.  Almost all of us at least had been willing to work in cooperation with you for our common good, all we asked in return was respect of our own identities.  We have been told over and over that is too high a price.

I did not at any point question or invalidate your identity as a woman.  I was simply stating facts about the history of transsexuals, we're generally assigned a gender role at birth and live some of our lives with people treating us as being a gender we are not and don't identify as.  Again you seem to be criticising people who dare to allude to that fact.  I have no intention of disrepecting your identity or reality.  Of course you didn't live a "male life" at any stage, you were never a man.  I would never imply such a thing.  What I might however imply is that you were assigned a gender role (to some extent or other) and people made assumptions about your gender during your life before transition.  I assume you even had a male name forced upon you at some point. Do you wish to contest this?

You have NEVER been male, I absolutely agree with you.  I have never been male either.

Over and over I have personally observed that those who demand entry into women's space do so to make it all about the trans.  Those who approach women's space as women are accepted because it is on the basis of commonality.  I've even had cheap shots taken at me by transgender identified people for participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual, excuse me?

You're again conflating two different things.  "participating in NOW as a woman instead of as a transsexual" <- that statement implies that transsexual people cannot be women.  You and I both know that isn't the case.  As I previously said, one term refers to your medical history, the other to your gender.  It's perfectly possibly to identify as trans and still identify 100% as female.  Lots of people do it.

When I talk about 2012, this is nothing I did, it's what's coming plain and simple and since I know psychiatrists at the top of the field, can tell you nothing is now going to prevent it.  If you are not rigidly classical transsexual, you WILL be medically defined as fetishist by the DSM -V revision.

Given my own experiences as a non-binary identified person and those of other non-binary people I know, I know for a fact that the medical profession is becoming more open-minded not more closed minded.  I simply can't see how 4 years down the line the medical profession will define all non 'classical transsexuals' as fetishists in the DSM.  That doesn't fit with my experience and the experiences of others at all.

And yet the Autumn Sandeens, Monica Helms and Marti Abernatheys continue to wage war on us.  Terms like "mutilated crotches", "penises turned inside out", man-ginas and "faux neo-vaginas" are NEVER heard from the "cisgendered" world, only this crowd.  Those who devalue women with nasty terms about their genitalia are gynophobic, they are the ones who repeat over and over "you will never be a real woman because you have an X chromosome." Please explain to me how this is not a direct assault on our womanhood especially when it is done in wider LGB space?  "it's true" is not a defense of this, first, in cases such as my own, it's not completely true.  Second if I were to state that gay men are participators in oral and anal intercourse, that would also be "true" but everyone would still see it as a very nasty insult, intention matters.

Sadly you continue to use the sins of the past to justify continued infighting.  Be the better person, refuse to invalidate the other side as you yourself have been invalidated.

Prove to me you respect my right to my identity, I started a petition to GLAAD to STOP, once and for all, the umbrella use of "transgender" to include us.....sign it and prove to me there has been a change of heart.

I will sign no such thing.  I absolutely respect that you do not wish to identify as transgender, however I know other 'classic transsexuals' who feel that there is nothing wrong with the term 'transgender' covering them.  If I were to sign such a petition I'd be saying it's not ok for other people to use that term.  We're never going to get into a situation where we all agree on what terminology fits us.  What we need to do is stress the right to self-identification but also not get too upset when other people have differing opinions about terminology.  You can't make blanket statements that 'classic transsexuals' shouldn't be refered to as 'transgender' without invalidating the identities of others.  Plenty of people identify as both.

[Mnemosyne]

Even though I have been moved to IGNORE status (which I shall truly treasure forever), I never said anything other than the poster appears to be very angry (past experiences with the T population can do that, been there before) and hateful. These are not snipes, merely observations. Nor do I dislike the poster, the few on here who know me know that I enjoy both sides to any debate. What the poster and I will never agree with (whether over drinks or the Internet) is allowing what has happened to dictate what will forever happen. People change, it is the nature of the human species. Those who do not disappear/die out.

Oh and predicting 2012 is still absolutely absurd for obvious reasons. Heck one or two of the people who are on the working teams now could drop dead before any damage is done. Or the collective outcry from several sectors (I have been privy to various meetings taking place in other communities that might be impacted) will lead to positive change. No one is in this alone and it is time to stop acting like it.

[NicholeW.]

In the interest of fair-play and truly getting out the way I feel about this I posted this on Pam's House Blend this morning:

Sharing An Umbrella

Is only necessary when a rainstorm is wetting another and they haven't an umbrella to keep them reasonably dry. They may always choose to reject another's offer of shelter. That's a personal choice.

Maura Hennessy and Zoe Brain have pretty well covered the ground I wish to occupy. I find it terribly sad that these hateful battles of one with another personality continually clog what avenues we do have for communicating our ideas to other people.

My feminism is about inclusion: it's about recognizing that humanity is the umbrella we all fit under whether we like the other people under that umbrella or not.

The only way, imo, we are going to attain the enjoyment of our lives as first class citizens is to convince people that we are just other human beings with more than a 99% sameness with themselves. It will be impossible to attain that if we consistently demean and besmirch one another for the sake of personal spleen.

It will be absolutely too easy to dismiss us all LBG & T (of any sort) as a lot of confused and bickering people who will simply bring their inane fights to places where there is enough fighting already about difference. Why can we never seem to frame our arguments over sameness, inclusion rather than exclusion?

I've been asking Cathryn to commit herself unilaterally to agreeing to work with others, like Autumn, in spite of how much that would "burn her heart." I'll ask the same of Autumn : Are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?

Cathryn refused to do so this morning because of this blog, so she said, although I suspect the reasons go more deeply. It's time to place personal antipathy to the side and find common ground. There truly is a lot of that to explore.

Nichole Weberring

[nooneinparticular]

When I first came here you asked I not use our discussions on other blogs.....

I honoured that.....I see it was not two way.  I finally answered your question this morning doing so privately for a reason......I feel betrayed you did not respect that either.

I am not engaging Sandeen, posted to my blog to that effect this morning.  It is worse than pointless because the entire reason for answering someone's opinions and positions with personal attacks is that you have no argument or position that stands against it and thus everything from that point forward is seen as a ->-bleeped-<- fight..gone are the original points from view.

There is no defense from this, it works almost everytime and so it will never stop being used.

[NicholeW.]

Cathy,

I said I had been talking with you and that you had said to me what you had already said publically for anyone who reads your blog to read. I didn't divulge anything from a private correspondence that you had not already divulged about yourself.

So, if you want to try to "straw dog" me as yet another person who "hates" you, you're gonna have to do much better than this.

The fact remains that you seem to thrive on being in some way "put upon" and "martyred" when, I think you know, that isn't the case.

I refuse to quote anything you sent me privately. I don't mind mentioning what you said publically and privately without any quotations & as a synopsis. That was entirely your doing. You see, I actually try to discover things about the people I have discussions on internet with. It helps me to picture them more clearly and to try my best to respect their opinions.

If you want to fight me, I imagine that you'll be very disappointed. There is no fight. I refuse it.

You and your followers are as dear to Mother as anyone else. No amount of baiting or its lack is going to change that. What Mother decrees I don't try to overturn by dint of being Her daughter.

You are truly a marvelous and wonderful person, who, as I have told you, has ever and will ever abide in Her arms. If you wish to take offense to that I can hardly keep you from it.

Nichole

[nooneinparticular]

Are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?

You know what Nichole?........I've reconsidered and will answer yes.  It would be a pointless exercise however to do it here so how about it be done in the appropriate large LGBT venue since this is not a trans issue but a much much wider one.  How about Pam's, that would be the ideal place under the circumstances.  Can you make it so?

[Caroline]

noooneinparticular: I'd be interested to see a response to my previous post in this thread if you have the time and inclination.

[nooneinparticular]

noooneinparticular: I'd be interested to see a response to my previous post in this thread if you have the time and inclination.

Would there be any point?.......there is clearly going to be no understanding, nothing personal at you at all but I feel I am standing in the middle of the snake pit here.  Everyone seems hell bent on making assumption about everyone else...those with the sweetest mouths often have the sharpest fangs.

I'm old, I'm tired and I'm beyond sick and tired of games transpeople play........an analog woman in a digital world.  The words I've left behind me speak for themselves....read them, don't read them, the choice is yours but keep in mind that without the key, you cannot read the map.

[NicholeW.]

Are you at all willing to take a first step, and even though it might burn your own heart, can you forgive others so that you and they might find a way to work together?

You know what Nichole?........I've reconsidered and will answer yes.  It would be a pointless exercise however to do it here so how about it be done in the appropriate large LGBT venue since this is not a trans issue but a much much wider one.  How about Pam's, that would be the ideal place under the circumstances.  Can you make it so?

I've contacted Pam, this morning. I'm afraid that most of the weekend I've spent strictly enjoying the company of my partner and others & have just seen this request.

What Pam may or may not allow I haven't a clue. The request was made. Nothing further I can do, but wait.

Nichole