America Watches the War in Georgia with Dumb Goggles

[lisagurl]

countries and peoples are not moral and don't operate as moral agents,

Morals are different for different peoples. Many of wars have been fought on morals principals except each side had different morals. What we need is a international set of laws and the whole world willing to defend them. Fat chance that will happen as long as some are more powerful than others.  Maybe if everyone had nukes then it would be in everybody's best interest to live at peace.  There is still those that are willing to commit suicide in God's name.

[fae_reborn]

I want to say that I'm not defending in any way the actions of Russia, but I just want to offer a possible explanation for their invasion of Georgia.

First, Georgia invaded South Ossetia, a pro-Moscow area who wants to break away from Georgia, to "control dissent" I'm sure.  Russia's invasion was perhaps a response to this, as they wanted to support their contingents in S. Ossetia. 

Second, Russia feels like the rest of the world is closing in on them.  As Lisa stated briefly, the signing of a missile defense shield package between the US and Poland is seen as a direct threat to Russian security and interests in the area.  A "missile defense shield" is just a fancy phrase for the fact that to stop an incoming missile, you shoot it with another one.  Well guess what?  Parking missiles in Poland, a neighbor of Russia, is the same as the USSR parking missiles in Cuba in 1962, right in the back door of the US.  We responded to that with embargo's and the Bay of Pigs invasion.  The similarities with Russia today are clear.

As one media reporter stated, Russia invaded Georgia to "take it's balls back."  The Red Bear wants to show the world that it's still a force to be reckoned with, and lets face it, since the collapse of the USSR, Russia has been mostly ignored by the rest of the world.  Pay no attention to the sleeping bear in the room folks, but guess what?  The bear just woke up...and it's hungry.

Third, I can't discount the fact that just like the US invasion of Iraq, Russia did this for oil.  The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline which runs through Georgia is seen as a threat to Russia's oil pipelines.  It's shorter and probably cheaper to use.  Why pump the oil through Russian pipes with you can do it through the Georgian pipeline?  Russia even tried bombing the pipeline itself!  Everyday that pipeline is in operation, the Russians are probably loosing a lot of money, money which I'm sure their struggling economy needs.  I wouldn't be surprised if they also bombed it (and if they succeeded) to deny oil to the West in order to take it for themselves.  Because, lets face it folks, we're in a long-term resource war.  Every country is.  I keep saying it and you know I have, but I'll say it again.  Peak Oil.  That is all.

Jenn

[joannatsf]

The Russians did not like the fact that the US helped Georgia build an oil pipeline that bypassed Russian territory and would prevent them from cutting down on the supply of oil to Europe as they did when they cut off the pipeline in the Ukraine.  Do not be surprised if they "protect" this pipeline in Georgia on behalf of regional interests.  Please do not delude yourself into thinking this is over anything other than money just like our invasion of Iraq.  All other issues were and are merely smokescreens.

Beverly

I think you have it exactly right.  In addition to the oil pipeline there are competing proposals for a trans Asian natural gas pipeline.  The American proposal that would have bypassed Russia altogether is pretty much DOA in the post-Georgia world.  In the future it appears that all of Europe's natural gas imports will pass through Russian control.

Readjustments in Pipelineistan

[Keira]

Nichole, I don't like your dismissive tone at all!
You're not dealing with some child,
My dealing with Russia and republics has been for
the last 15 years, not some passing fancy.
Also, I've got a good handle on current past and future geopolitics.

The Ukrainians lost millions in a deliberate attempt to
kill them off in the 30's, why on earth woiuld they not side with the
nazi's!

I know that nazi is now a shorthand for evil, but that's only rose colored
glass hindsight. At the time, after having been forced
to export their own wheat to the rest of the USSR even as they were starving.
you can understand  why the Ukrainians did it. Nobody knew about the
"final solution" and the Germans didn't look so bad as an occupier.

And even there, Ukrainians where mostly farmers scratching a living
and I'm sure most didn't even know or care there was a war going on.

A thing not responded to is the fact that the reason Russia
is intervening in the foirmer republics is because their Russification (assimilation)
policies during the URSS area put loads of Russians nationals there and
forced people not to speak their language and all sort of other evil stuff...

Anyway, I'm retiring from this subject because I know the argument will take
too much of my time and I'll surely get heated up
and I don't have any time or emotions to spare right now.

[NicholeW.]

The tone, my dear, is not and was not dismissive. Although I couldn't disagree with what you have written much more. In my view morality has no place in the debate. I was merely pointing to your tactic and to the fact that you were not arguing the point I was making. You were arguing morality and how you feel.

If I had dismissed you, I'd have never commented at all on your comment, what would have been the point?

N~

[tekla]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[joannatsf]

Finland was also allied with Nazi Germany.  After prevailing against Stalin's armies in the Winter War they also adopted "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" strategy.

[RebeccaFog]

    Both the United States government and the Russian governments suck.  The U.S. shows no respect for Russia. Everyone knows the upcoming wars are about resources and the control of resources.

    When it comes to Russia, the U.S. should just follow the European's lead. They have the history and they are the ones on the edge of it.

    It's all a game of Chinese baseball and a lot of people are going to have their heads knocked off. But, what can you do? It is the way it's always been and it is the way it will remain. The segment of the world's population that have peaceful and pleasant souls have always been screwed.

   I believe in revolutions. But know enough to not expect one.

[NicholeW.]

Yep, you're exactly right, Claire. And Pilsudsky and his Finns were every bit as fascist as the Ukrainians were.

What difference does that make?

And Rebis, I hope you are wrong about "always" it'd be nice to see some changes in that regard.

Nichole

[joannatsf]

Well, there's no need to get snippy about, Nichole.  I'm in agreement with your position.

[NicholeW.]

O, sorry, didn't mean to be snippy, Claire. I was just wondering how the Pilsudsky "Blacks" figured into it?

N~

[RebeccaFog]

Hi Nichole,

   I've been perusing all kinds of history for some projects and all I see are bloody rebellions, wars, massacres, fighting fighting fighting. I've come to suspect that violence and governmental ignorance are built into human society. All you can do is either ignore it, or make whatever efforts you can to change it. It's unstoppable, though. That's just the conclusion I came to for myself.

   I wrote all my reps today including the house and the senate leaders and the minority leader of the senate. I asked them to all please do whatever it takes to stop the bush administration from messing around with Russia and any and all other nations.
   I also requested that they watch out for and prevent bad legislation that bush may try to push through. I also requested they should watch for and try to block bad executive orders and any crimes that may be committed by the bush administration.
   I wrote it serious and brief so whoever reads it won't fall asleep.

   I'm thinking of writing what I really feel and sending it to cheney.
 

[tekla]

Gosh, I'd be happy to have them stop messing around with the USA myself.

But we've been involved over there for a while now.  Georgia is little more than a client state of the US, and has been since the breakup of the USSR.  We have given them 'military advisors' sold them weapons, held out membership in NATO - all of this was done for one reason only, the pipeline to the oil in the Caspian Sea (which may not be even close to what was predicted, its also an eco-apocalypse) so they could do an end run around OPEC.  Russia, for once not having a drunk in power, or someone close to senile, has decided to do something, and there is not a lot we can do about it.