Where is the line drawn?

[Annwyn]

What drives your transition?  What is it you're after?  Where do you draw the line?

I'm asking for selfish reasons of course.  I keep thinking of myself as an androgynous individual, and then questioning why transitioning means so much to me: why it should mean anything at all.

I keep thinking that if I could be the way the hormones made me all the time(softer skin, a lil more form, no facial hair, no muscles, etc) then I wouldn't need to transition.  I feel like if I was just a little more fem, then I wouldn't have a need to transition at all.  Like Villa Valo, or Miyavi, or any number of gender rebels our there.  I'm realizing more and more that the line might not have been as far as I drew it to start with.  I'm realizing more and more that maybe it's not the concept of going all the way that I'm after, but of being so far in the middle that you're able to be satisfied.

So what about you girls?  At what point are you understepping and at what point are you overstepping?

Living in the world as an androgyne could potentially be a lot harder than just transitioning fully.  Testosterone continually effects the body, so even with electrolysis and possible chemical castration, I still think that the idea of being an androgyne indefinately is an unrealistic one, it's just putting myself in the glory of youth and not taking into account what will happen to my body as I age, and how those effects would impact my self image.  As I got older, my shoulders would continue to broaden, my voice would continue to drop, and my adams apple would grow... all things that I just don't want period.

If I transitioned all the way through to SRS I cuold get fix it all, but at the cost of possibly overstepping myself.  If I don't transition, then I have no guarantee that I'm not just royally screwing myself to be a mental ->-bleeped-<-up later in life, and that I won't be able t o hold onto being an androgyne because of the long term effects of testosterone on the body.

[Nicky]

You're worried that you will miss some things if you transition too far, that you will lose something that makes you you (that's what it sounds like to me anyway). You fear that it will be a mistake. You want it all, so an androgynous appearance is an attractive compromise. Socially I think it is a ->-bleeped-<-ty compromise.

My internal identity is androgyne and this does not depend on my physical appearance. I am still an androgyne no matter what I look like but I feel internally driven to look like I feel inside. I want to feel comfortable in my own skin. I want to look at it and feel like it is not entirely male and not entirely female. I want people to talk about me as a woman and confuse others who think of me as a man. I want to be able to wear whatever I feel like, I would like female clothes to fit me. I don't know where the line is but it is further towards femininity than masculinity.

I agree that it is very hard to live in the in-between, yet this is what I personally desire. It is what would make my dysphoria less burdensome. I often debate whether the pain of societies backlash to me looking 'other' will be worse than the pain of my dysphoria. Tough call really. My compromise is to push how far I can feminise to see if I will become comfortable but not go so far that society gets too angsty. It has not really worked as I discovered that I could not go far enough to get rid of the internal pain without going too far for everyone else. The more I change the more I want. I've already overstepped some invisible mark that makes the majority of strangers start to take notice.

I know I am understepping because I still suffer body dysphoria. I don't know where the point is for myself. I can only go on looking for it. I think once I get there it won't be a razors edge. I don't fear overstepping the mark.

I think looking like I feel inside indefinitely is very realistic. I can see myself on hormone therapy just like a MtF. Unlike a lot of MtFs I won't attempt to pass as a woman because I am not one, so I will end up in the, hopefully, happy middle ground where body is not totally female and my behaviour is entirely my own. I also would rather look more feminine than masculine anyway so I don't see transitioning too far as a problem. I'm not ever going to achieve a totally female body just on hormones. I also happy with my genitals the way they are so SRS does not hold any interest.

I hope you find something of use in what I say.

[Annwyn]

Wow thx a ton Nicky!^_^

[Kendall]

Sounds like time to see the gender therapist if you haven't already.

[Pica Pica]

yeah, an androgyne need not have to transition - and indeed what is an androgyne transitioning into?
it would appear from all our paltry evidence that androgynes just are, and they need to find a way of being comfortable in this. this may include some physical changes, it may not.

However unlike a mtf learning to behave female and androgyne can't help acting like an androgyne, that is the curse.

[Seshatneferw]

yeah, an androgyne need not have to transition - and indeed what is an androgyne transitioning into?
it would appear from all our paltry evidence that androgynes just are, and they need to find a way of being comfortable in this. this may include some physical changes, it may not.

Hey, not fair first asking the question and then answering it! That is the transition: stop pretending to be a man or a woman, and be what you really are instead. If you turn out to be a woman or a man then that's the way it is; if you turn out to be an androgyne then it might be a good idea to see how the society in general will see you and adjust your legal status accordingly.

One of the things with androgynes is that a lot of us don't seem to have a clear overall goal in sight. Instead, the idea is to go in the direction that feels good, and stop when it seems time to do so. There is no RLE as a part of the treatment, just real life that may involve some treatments.

Then again, I don't really see why a transsexual's transition could not be handled the same way. It's just that the medical establishment has ended up with standards of care that assume a clear path between birth gender and target gender, and call some sections of that path as diagnostic and others as treatment. It's not ideal even for those who aim for one of the binary genders, though, let alone for androgynes. But it's really a difference of how one views the process, not of what goes on.

  Nfr

[Nicky]

However unlike a mtf learning to behave female and androgyne can't help acting like an androgyne, that is the curse.

Is this true do you think? Or is there some unlearning of being a man or woman? I feel like I have shed a lot of layers as I go along. But at the same time some things are just inbuilt and I'm sure this is the same for an mtf. They already have the base.

I see the main difference with androgynes being that we don't have a gender role to learn, but we do need to learn how to be comfortable in our own space. I suppose I always act like an androgyne because I'm as much a model for androgyne behaviour as any other androgyne. But if we became organised and etched out a place in society then maybe the free behaviour party would end and we would have behaviour to learn too...